Hello all
Another new one here, well old new anyway, lol.
I'm just getting back into sourdough baking, did it years ago for a
while.
I have been using the starter from carlsfriends and been having good
results.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ma...tysLoaves.html will give

you an idea of where I am at.

I have a question regarding wheat bread. I usually use Gold Medal
Better for Bread flour. Recently I came across some Gold Medal Better
for Wheat Bread flour and liking the taste of wheat bread thought I'd
give it a try. I mixed up a couple of loaves as I usually do except
substituting the wheat
flour for my usual stuff. The first rising went well, more than doubled.

I cut it in half and put it into my two pullman pans, placed them in the

oven with the light on, temp about 80F. Nothing happened. After 12 hours

I baked it, put it on a coat hanger and hung it out in the yard, the
squirrels can't even naw at it! Last weekend I used the same recipe but
substituted only 2 cups of wheat flour and the same thing happened. As
an experiment, after 10 hours, I dumped the two loaves back in the
mixer, added a cup of starter and let it mix, didn't add any flour. I
cut that in half, put it in the pans and back in the oven, in about 2
hours they had risen to the top of the pans, I baked it and got fairly
good bread. This week I thought I'd get smart and do the same thing but

put it in the pans for the first rising seeing as that always worked
well. Well ha ha, guess what. It's been sitting there for 10 hours now
and is still about 3/4 inch short of the top of the pan.
When I am going to start a loaf here is what I do:
Friday morning, take the starter out of the fridge and leave it on the
counter for the day.
Friday evening mix 3 cups of bread flour, two cups of room temperature
spring water and one cup of starter in the mixer bowl. Cover it with
plastic and put it in the oven with the light on.
In the morning it is light and frothy and I mix in everything else,
kneed it for about 20 minutes.
Any ideas on what might be going on here?

Thanks for your time.
Marty in Massachusetts

Marty wrote:
losta details about dough

Any ideas on what might be going on here?

Anything how you treat your starter?

Your dough times without anything happening look impressive (no pun
intended).

Also, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency happening - one day this,
next day that but, as you said, you are doing the same thing, being
smart and it fails.

So, what's the difference?

Contrary to different opinions at times here, I think that an
established starter runs like a clockwork - all parameters the same
(temp, time, hydration, inoculation amount and condition of it).

What you describe that it rises initially, then, once in pans, nothing.

Is your starter exhausting itself on the first run?

It does not look like the flour change is doing this. You may see less
rise with full grain, maybe longer fermentation, but consistent squirrel
challenges just from flour change?

With the old flour, was it working well?

So, lotsa questions back ;-)

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Marty" wrote in message =
...

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Any ideas on what might be going on here?

It seems typical for dumb luck. The first time or two
you get extraordinary results, then blah ...

Whole grain flour is not so good for rising as white
flour. It is loaded with pointy microcruntleys. Rye,
if you ever get around to that, is worse, because it
does not form gluten.

There is a certain amount of carbon dioxide that will
become available, and you may have to think about
not wasting it. Dough manipulations may waste it.

If your preferments and dough, at any point, get past
yeast peak (to a state where starvation begins), you
risk poor dough, that, for one thing, may leak gas.
(I try to take the rise finally beyond yeast peak, for
flavor and a touch of sourness, but I am not sure that
is common practice -- it is a critical step which has
as a hazard dough collapse.)

Preferments, particularly the sponge, if the sponge=20
method is used, should be developed to vibrancy
(yeast peak).

Usually you will get a better rise, well, more vertical
rise, with a firmer dough, other things being equal.
(In a Pullman pan, though, that may not make any
difference, at least as long as the dough does not
climb above the top of the pan.)

There is a strong current of thought at r.f.s. which=20
assumes that the dough does not need to be very=20
much inflated when it is put into the oven, because=20
the steam and radiant heat in the oven will blow it=20
up in any case. Well, that does not apply to what=20
you seem to be doing (Pullman loaves), so if you=20
are beginning to combine that rationale with the one=20
you started with, your results will most likely suffer.

Your photo shows very nice bread, and reflects good
photo technique. I hope and trust you will find your=20
way through the circumstances you are reporting upon.

---
DickA

Samartha Deva wrote:

Marty wrote:
losta details about dough

Any ideas on what might be going on here?

Anything how you treat your starter?

When I first got it from carlsfriends I mixed it into a cup of slightly warm
water, let that set for half an hour or so then added a cup of KA AP flour
and let it brew for a day or so while it got nice and bubbly. I then poured
off a cup, cleaned the container, put it back with a cup of warmish water
and a cup of KA AP flour. Did that two more times and it seemed well
established. First loaf was nothing to write home about, after that things
began working quite well. The first batch was most likely my technique.
Now I keep about two cups of starter in a 40 oz. ex-peanut butter jar in the
fridge. When I am going to make bread I take it out on Friday morning and
leave it on the counter to warm, Friday evening I make up the sponge using 1
cup of starter, 3 cups of bread flour and 2 cups of room temperature spring
water. In the morning his is frothy and light, no problem to this point,
works every time. To the remaining starter I add 1 cup of KA AP flour and a
cup of water, when I notice activity I put it back in the fridge. By the end
of the week it has a layer of hooch about 3/8 inch deep if that means
anything. I just stir that back in.



Your dough times without anything happening look impressive (no pun
intended).

Also, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency happening - one day this,
next day that but, as you said, you are doing the same thing, being
smart and it fails.

So, what's the difference?


The only difference that I can think of is the time of year. This is an old
house, about 115 years old, and has steam heat. In warm weather with the
windows open everything is at a nice uniform warm, not so now that it is
getting cold. I use the oven with the light on for proofing. Now the light
isn't enough so I added a small laboratory type heater to get the
temperature back up in the lo 80's

Contrary to different opinions at times here, I think that an
established starter runs like a clockwork - all parameters the same
(temp, time, hydration, inoculation amount and condition of it).

What you describe that it rises initially, then, once in pans, nothing.

Is your starter exhausting itself on the first run?


Last week when I re-mixed the two loaves with more starter I thought that
might be the problem. That's why this week I put it in the pan for the first
rising. It took 12 hours to get near the top of the pan and seemed to be
going back down so I baked it. Rather dense but good tasting, not much good
for a descent work/school lunch sandwich though so I made a leavened loaf of
plain white, same pan, same oven, same flour (but all white) etc. and that
came out fine.

Note to self: Make a proofing box!

It does not look like the flour change is doing this. You may see less
rise with full grain, maybe longer fermentation, but consistent squirrel
challenges just from flour change?

With the old flour, was it working well?


That is going to be next weeks project, right back to basics, see if that
still works.

So, lotsa questions back ;-)

Thanks much for your, and others, help
Marty

P.S. Years ago I had some starter from Sourdough Jack that smelled
wonderfull. If anyone is still using that and would like to share I'd
appreciate it.