On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:15:39 -0600, Samartha Deva
wrote:

wrote:

When creating a starter from scratch with just flour and water you are
actually trying to capture the yeast and bacillus from the ambient. But the
issue is whether there is yeast and bacillus in YOUR environment.


This is one of the dumbest statements I have seen within the recent
flatliners here.

Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in
case somebody is unable to get to the previous text.

I would recommend the poster to actually research:

a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are
b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally
occurring
c - how they propagate
d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are
e - what the germs and germ counts in flours are
f - how they compare
g - what the infection pressure of "ambient" germs compared to flour
indigenous CFU's (culture forming units) under consideration of exposed
area is

And - once you got that figured out, report back and make an actual
contribution instead of sharing your fantasies.

Thank you,

Samartha


Howdy,

The P.N.Q. (patent nonsense quotient) of the posts to this group has
soared in recent weeks.

For those who are highly experienced, it probably means little; but
the (potential) effect on beginners concerns me.

For those starting out particularly:

Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as
those offered by Samartha.

He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science
(and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his
knowledge both here and at his excellent site.

I have been baking for over forty years and have learned much from his
comments.

If you want to improve your sourdough baking, learn what you can from
Samartha's comments, and from those many others who know what they are
talking about.

If you just want to enjoy the show, I'll happily join you. In a
perverse way it certainly is fun. But please don't confuse the
performance with sound reasoning, and baking expertise...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:49:33 -0400, Kenneth
wrote:

Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as
those offered by Samartha.

Don't bruise your forehead on the floor as you worship at his cult
altar.

He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science
(and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his
knowledge both here and at his excellent site.

If you call that unprofessional condescending sarcasm he emits
"generous sharing" you are sick.

You cultists are all sick. Normal people do not behave like this.

"Bob" wrote in message =
...

Yes, actually ("Bob" makes authentic sourdough - presumably bread
although the only news we have is about failed starter).

Wanna place a little wager on it?

OK, but who is going to be the referee? Samartha is the only person
around here that knows anything according to Kenneth, but according
to "Bob" he is nuts.

Sometimes it is possible to resolve such matters with photographs,
but almost no one, including Kenneth, knows how to make those.

---
DickA

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:58:02 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

Normal people do not behave like this.

Well, on that we agree...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote in
:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:15:39 -0600, Samartha Deva
wrote:

snips Samartha's unworthy flaming

Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in
case somebody is unable to get to the previous text.

I would recommend the poster to actually research:

a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are
b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally
occurring
c - how they propagate
d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are
e - what the germs and germ counts in flours are
f - how they compare
g - what the infection pressure of "ambient" germs compared to flour
indigenous CFU's (culture forming units) under consideration of
exposed area is

snip

The P.N.Q. (patent nonsense quotient) of the posts to this group has
soared in recent weeks.

For those who are highly experienced, it probably means little; but
the (potential) effect on beginners concerns me.

For those starting out particularly:

Few posts here (or anywhere else for that matter) are as valuable as
those offered by Samartha.

He knows his stuff from extensive experience. He knows the science
(and there is lots of it to know). He is most generous sharing his
knowledge both here and at his excellent site.

I have been baking for over forty years and have learned much from his
comments.

If you want to improve your sourdough baking, learn what you can from
Samartha's comments, and from those many others who know what they are
talking about.

snip

Excuse me, you write this praise of Samartha's helpfulness as a comment to
a post where he only shares his questions, not his knowledge. That's the
same pontificating way Bob has been treated from the beginning, by some of
the regulars. However irritating they find him, it would have been to the
benefit for all who visit this newsgroup if his questions had been answered
and his worries been met with patience. Never mind Bob's posting style.

Johan

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan wrote:

Excuse me, you write this praise of Samartha's helpfulness as a comment to
a post ..

Hi Johan,

In the literal sense, you are correct...

My intent was not to respond to a particular "post" but rather the
larger context of the last few weeks.

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:11:32 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:

Yes, actually ("Bob" makes authentic sourdough - presumably bread
although the only news we have is about failed starter).

Wanna place a little wager on it?

OK, but who is going to be the referee?

Are you saying you don't trust me to report the truth on my own?

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan wrote:

Never mind Bob's posting style.

You clearly came in late. If you had come in at the beginning the
complete record would be front of youYou would see for yourself that I
was attacked first - and for absolutely no good reason.

Anyway Bob's posting style is Pure Texan. Don't you know the Texas
Motto: "Don't Mess With Texas!"

As a Texan I am one of the friendliest people you will ever meet, and
I mean that sincerely. In fact,the name "Texas" comes from the Indian
word "Tejas" which means "friendly".

Unless absolutely necessary, we don't even blow our horns in traffic,
like most other people do - it's considered rude. If someone is
dawdling at a stoplight which turns gree, the most you will hear is a
couple of slight "toots" to remind the guy it's time to go. Try that
in New Yawk - where there is every possibility you could love life and
limb if you do move out the instant the light turns green.

There is one thing, however, you never want to do, and that is to ****
off a Texan. They can become as mean and ornery as a rattlesnake when
provoked. Behave in a civilized manner and Texans will treat you as a
civlilized person.

(Bob) wrote in news:3f9ad525.940702@news-
server.houston.rr.com:

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:36:26 GMT, Johan wrote:

Never mind Bob's posting style.

You clearly came in late. If you had come in at the beginning the
complete record would be front of youYou would see for yourself that I
was attacked first - and for absolutely no good reason.

It seems that you misunderstand me. I did not come in late. My point was
that your (apparently annoying) posting style isn't a good reason for
mobbing you. If your opponents cannot see any other good motif for
refraining from this, they could at least think of other visitors and
regulars of the newsgroup.

On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more
constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess
With Texas!" - I mean, get some perspective, we are writing posts in a
forum about sourdough...

Regards
Johan

Anyway Bob's posting style is Pure Texan. Don't you know the Texas
Motto: "Don't Mess With Texas!"

As a Texan I am one of the friendliest people you will ever meet, and
I mean that sincerely. In fact,the name "Texas" comes from the Indian
word "Tejas" which means "friendly".

Unless absolutely necessary, we don't even blow our horns in traffic,
like most other people do - it's considered rude. If someone is
dawdling at a stoplight which turns gree, the most you will hear is a
couple of slight "toots" to remind the guy it's time to go. Try that
in New Yawk - where there is every possibility you could love life and
limb if you do move out the instant the light turns green.

There is one thing, however, you never want to do, and that is to ****
off a Texan. They can become as mean and ornery as a rattlesnake when
provoked. Behave in a civilized manner and Texans will treat you as a
civlilized person.

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:33 GMT, Johan wrote:

On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more
constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess
With Texas!"

That's the state motto.

I mean, get some perspective, we are writing posts in a
forum about sourdough...

You sure could have fooled me. The very first post was attacked with
no justification if this is a forum about sourdough. In fact, it is a
hangout for cult fetish trolls who try to cover up for their miserable
existence by jumping neophytes. People posting to a forum on sourdough
do not behave that way.

In any event, I am about to put this matter to rest. Please read my
new thread entitled:

Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough"

where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to
deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters
come from the flour.

It may very well be true that in certain circumstances there are
organisms in flour (Wood suggests freshly ground organic flour), and
that one can make a starter from those organisms. But to claim, as
Samartha and his cult groupies do, that airborne starter organisms are
a myth, and anyone who believes in them is a fool, is the height of
arrogance and needs to be debunked.

Once we get this matter resolved, I will killfile the entire lot of
these cult fetish trolls. They will have become irrelevant and
therefore indulging their continued fakery is a waste of time.

On another matter of considerable controversy around here, Wood has
some rather pointed comments to make about weighing versus using cups
to measure ingredients. He says he uses cups except when he needs more
exacting measurements, which he doesn't describe.

This weight measurement thing is another of the cult fetishes that
needs to be debunked, but I am not going to waste my time doing it. If
Ed Wood, a world-renouned sourdough baker, uses cup measures in
routine bread making, then that is good enough for me.

Wood is wrong when he claims that weighing compensates for humidity
pickup. In fact weighing acts to exacerbate the humidity pickup
problem. But that's another issue - one that can be easily resolved
with a few minutes critical thinking once you realize that flour is
less dense than water.

"Bob" wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:33 GMT, Johan wrote:

On the other hand, you could give a contribution too, to a more
constructive situation, by calming down one or two notches. "Don't Mess
With Texas!"

That's the state motto.

Actually, it's "Friedship"

See: http://castor.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/symbols.html or you can work
your way to the same place from www.texas.gov


Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough"

where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to
deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters
come from the flour.

It may very well be true that in certain circumstances there are
organisms in flour (Wood suggests freshly ground organic flour), and
that one can make a starter from those organisms. But to claim, as
Samartha and his cult groupies do, that airborne starter organisms are
a myth, and anyone who believes in them is a fool, is the height of
arrogance and needs to be debunked.


I've read, with great interest, just about every post to this group for the
last couple of years or so. I've also, on many occasions, gone back and
searched the archives when was looking for conversation on a particular
aspect of sourdough. I don't recall anyone ever stating the the "only"
source of the organisms found in sourdough starters comes from flour. What I
have read is that it is high unlikely (virtually impossible), given the high
quantitiy of these organisms present in the flour, that another source would
acutally be providing these organisms to the starter.

I believe you may have built yourself a straw man.


Wood is wrong when he claims that weighing compensates for humidity
pickup. In fact weighing acts to exacerbate the humidity pickup
problem. But that's another issue - one that can be easily resolved
with a few minutes critical thinking once you realize that flour is
less dense than water.


What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms
yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
density.

-Mike

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:35:18 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:

That's the state motto.

Actually, it's "Friedship"

That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess
With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar
around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get
chained to the back of a pickup.

I've read, with great interest, just about every post to this group for the
last couple of years or so. I've also, on many occasions, gone back and
searched the archives when was looking for conversation on a particular
aspect of sourdough. I don't recall anyone ever stating the the "only"
source of the organisms found in sourdough starters comes from flour. What I
have read is that it is high unlikely (virtually impossible), given the high
quantitiy of these organisms present in the flour, that another source would
acutally be providing these organisms to the starter.

Smartha and his cult fetish groupies have pontificated on several
occasions that airborne organisms do not start sourdough cultures and
that those who believe they do are fools. But then you know that,
since you have read just about every post to this group.

I believe you may have built yourself a straw man.

I am building nothing. I am merely attempting to debunk a cultish
fetish. I actually wish Samartha was correct, for reasons stated
earlier. I am the one who faithfully followed his proscriptions, until
it became obvious I had been suckered into a merry chase.

If flour-based organisms are solely responsible for starting sourdough
cultures, then it must take a very special flour to make that happen
as easily as Samartha and his cult fetish groupies maintain. Maybe the
secret is to obtain freshly milled organic flour. It's for sure that
after trying with 4 different kinds of store-bought flours, 2 white
and 2 rye, that there has to be something special about this.

What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough organisms
yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
density.

You say you have read all the posts on this forum, but it is clear
that you have not read Wood's book. Did you read the thread I began
about Wood's book?

Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of
sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that
thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread.

He deliberately stays clear of making a pronouncement on that issue.
That tells me that he is willing to accept the possibility that
flour-based organisms could be a source of starter organisms. I wish
it were true.

But Wood (and many others including me) are unwilling to go so far as
to insist, as Samartha and his cult groupies do, that such
consideration rules out airborne starter organisms. And to label
people who believe in the existence of airborne starter organisms as
"fools who believe in myths" is downright unprofessional in light of
the considerable evidence to the contrary - Wood the sourdough baker
being one example of such evidence.

In true science each advance in knowledge is an extension of prior
knowledge. Quantum Mechanics is a natural extension of Classical
Physics. Relativity is a natural extension of Newtonian Mechanics. To
claim that new scientific evidence has arisen that completely
obliterates a century of established prior science like microbiology
is absurd.

Anyway, how do you explain the strong regional characteristics of
particular sourdough cultures? Or is that a myth too?

"Bob" wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:35:18 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:

That's the state motto.

Actually, it's "Friedship"

That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess
With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar
around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get
chained to the back of a pickup.


How could I disagree with such a cite of a reference. You must be right.


Snip


Smartha and his cult fetish groupies have pontificated on several
occasions that airborne organisms do not start sourdough cultures and
that those who believe they do are fools. But then you know that,
since you have read just about every post to this group.


We have a tendency to see what we want to see. I don't see it that way, I
guess you do.

Snip

If flour-based organisms are solely responsible for starting sourdough
cultures, then it must take a very special flour to make that happen
as easily as Samartha and his cult fetish groupies maintain. Maybe the
secret is to obtain freshly milled organic flour. It's for sure that
after trying with 4 different kinds of store-bought flours, 2 white
and 2 rye, that there has to be something special about this.

My experience has been quite different than yours on this front.



What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority to debunk the idea of flour as the source of sourdough
organisms
yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
density.

You say you have read all the posts on this forum, but it is clear
that you have not read Wood's book. Did you read the thread I began
about Wood's book?


I read Wood's book a number of years ago and have gone back to it a number
of times since, most recently yesterday.


Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of
sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that
thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread.


I stand corrected. What I should have said:

"What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority "to be used by you as a reference" to debunk the idea of flour as
the source of sourdough organisms
yet it seems he is not bright enough to figure out simple weight and
density."

I quote from a previous message of yours:

****************
In any event, I am about to put this matter to rest. Please read my
new thread entitled:

Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdough"

where I debunk Samartha and his cult fetish trolls for attempting to
deceive us that the only source of organisms in sourdough starters
come from the flour.

****************


SNIP



Anyway, how do you explain the strong regional characteristics of
particular sourdough cultures? Or is that a myth too?


I have no idea. I've not experienced any regional differnces in sourdough,
not that I've really gone out of my way or try to research this. There are a
lot of factors that go into the flavor of a loaf of bread, the starter being
one of them. My understanding is that the combinations of organisms can vary
from starter to starter and this can have an impact on the flavor of the
final loaf. I wouldn't find it suprising if a particular starter became
dominant in a particular region over time by being shared or that a certain
technique for making bread became common in a particular area. Both of those
things would contribute to "regional" differences that have little to do
with organisms native to that region. There are probably a ton of other
reasons, like climate, that could account for regional differences that are
unrelated to native organisms. The only region that really concerns me when
it comes it sourdough is my kitchen.

-Mike

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:00:14 -0600, "Mike Pearce"
wrote:

That's the motto for the PRA. In East Texas, the motto is "Don't Mess
With Texas!". If you don't believe me, just start a fight in a bar
around here. You will be lucky to escape with your life before you get
chained to the back of a pickup.

How could I disagree with such a cite of a reference. You must be right.

No cite necessary when you live around here.

My experience has been quite different than yours on this front.

Then please share those experiences with us (see below).

Nowhere in his book does he "debunk the idea of flour as the source of
sourdough organisms". I thought I made that abundantly clear in that
thread about his book. Or did you not read this thread.

I stand corrected. What I should have said:

"What I don't understand is why Wood would be considered enough of an
authority "to be used by you as a reference" to debunk the idea of flour as
the source of sourdough organisms

But he doesn't debunk flour as a possible source of sourdough
organisms. Please re-read pages 7 ff.

I've not experienced any regional differnces in sourdough,
not that I've really gone out of my way or try to research this. There are a
lot of factors that go into the flavor of a loaf of bread, the starter being
one of them. My understanding is that the combinations of organisms can vary
from starter to starter and this can have an impact on the flavor of the
final loaf. I wouldn't find it suprising if a particular starter became
dominant in a particular region over time by being shared or that a certain
technique for making bread became common in a particular area. Both of those
things would contribute to "regional" differences that have little to do
with organisms native to that region. There are probably a ton of other
reasons, like climate, that could account for regional differences that are
unrelated to native organisms. The only region that really concerns me when
it comes it sourdough is my kitchen.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as a authentic "San
Francisco sourdough starter" per se? If so, then why are people
marketing starters as "San Francisco sourdough starters"? That
reference is made explicitly about the starter, and nothing else.

I don't doubt that there are other factors that go into making the
bread people refer to as SF-style sourdough. But there are those who
would have you believe that there is such as thing as an authentic SF
starter.

My only issue here is that I am not convinced that flour is the sole
contributing factor to starters. However, I am not qualified to make
that judgement - for all I know Samartha and his cult are absolutely
correct. My objection is in the way such an hypothesis is defended. I
guess I was expecting a more scientific approach but that is
apparently not possible with artisan bakers. And by "scientific
approach" I do not mean the recitation of biology terminology. I mean
a consistent rational approach, one which involves critical thinking
and not pontification.

I just got back from Whole Food Market and they had pretty much what I
wanted but only in a whole wheat flour. It is freshly milled (on a
weekly basis) and it is organic whole grain flour with everything from
the wheat berries present. It has to be reasonably fresh because it is
my understanding that real whole wheat contains components that can go
rancid with time.

I will make a mixture of 75% of this freshly milled organic whole
grain flour and 25% Arrowhead whole grain rye I got last week. I will
follow the recipe for feeding that comes from both Samartha, the rfs
FAQ and the National Baking Center article that the master baker sent
me (the one who advocated catching organisms from the environment,
even possibly using grapes yuk). But I am going to cover it like
Samartha and his groupies insist and keep it in an oven with the light
on. I will monitor the temperature and record the entire experiment.

This is it - if this mixture doesn't start on its own, then something
is very wrong here.

"Bob" wrote in message
...
Are you saying that there is no such thing as a authentic "San
Francisco sourdough starter" per se? If so, then why are people
marketing starters as "San Francisco sourdough starters"? That
reference is made explicitly about the starter, and nothing else.
snip
Bob,
People sell SF sourdough starter because there is a market for it. People
sell SF starter because there is money in it. People sell SF starter
because some(maybe all of it) is produced in SF. However, making a loaf of
SF sourdough bread is a learning experience. Many of the people on both
bread groups have tried for a long time to duplicate that kind of bread. It
isn't necessarily the starter's fault. Just learning to make a loaf of
bread that has that kind of crust and that kind of chewy, holey interior is
a challenge. Learning to make the loaf sour(no matter what starter you
have) can also be a challenge.

As to whether or not the organisms that produce a sourdough starter come
from the flour or the air, the organisims exist in both places. However,
look at it this way. The grain spends the entire growing season out in a
field, waving around in the air with those little nifty seed heads providing
crevices for air borne organisms to lodge. If you were to bet on the
likelyhood of organisms producing a starter, would you place your money on
the grain that spent all summer in a field or your jar sitting in your
backyard for a day?

King Arthur has just put out in new book. The King Arthur Flour Baker's
Companion--the All-Purpose Baking Cookbood, published October 2003. On page
274, in a sidebar it says. "Be Patient! If your young starter still
doesn't appear active after the first week, don't be discouraged. Simply
continue the twice daily feeding schedule. It's not uncommon for sourdough
starter to require more than a week to become established. Cool winter
temperatures and the absence of wild yeast in your kitchen are factors that
extend the time needed for a starter to become mature and ripe. The value
of a long, slow process is a central theme in the world of sourdough, and
while this may be your first encounter with this theme, it will certainly
not be your last. Again and again we are reminded that time is a critical
ingredient, with no substitute." (I would imagine that Samartha says to
contact him within a certain time frame just to go over your process to see
if he can identify something that is being done incorrectly.)

Rose Levy Beranbaum has just published The Bread Bible.(September/October
2003) In it on page 426 she says "A sourdough starter often is cultured
from wild yeast and the bacteria present on the flour".

Peter Reinhart in The Bread Baker's Apprentice (2001) says on page 227
"There are dozens of valid methods for making wild-yeast breads, and every
bakery has its own system. Some use a six-build system in which the stater
is fed on a very specific schedule at precise times with precise
temperatures, building the dough larger and larger volumes until the last
"build" serves as the starter for the final dough. The various builds, or
elaborations, affect both flavor and structure. Some bakeries use only a
simple two-build system, using a large portion(25-35 percent) of the
previous batch of final dough as the starter for the next batch. Some
systems use a wet-sponge poolish-like starter, while others use a firm
biga-like starter, or any combination thereof. Many systems use a
combination of wild yeast and commercial yeast(called spiking the dough) to
create a hybrid loaf that is flavorful but faster rising and not too sour.
Some bakeries use different systems for different breads (firm starter for
one, sponge starter for another, spiked method for another), while other
bakeries use a single master system and apply it to all of their breads In
other words, no single rule governs how to make wild-yeast bread." (This is
important to remember when the bread recipe you try doesn't produce the loaf
of bread that you are trying to reproduce.) On page 228, he gives his
method of producing a seed culture, which he prefaces as follows: "The
following method will work with either organic or commercial flour and
produces a mother starter, what I fondly call the barm, in 5 to 6 days,
depending on the weather." He then proceeds to outline a 4 day method that
uses rye flour and high-gluten or bread flour.

I could go on and cite many other books and most likely they also would have
slightly different takes on how a sourdough starter is achieved. The issue
is that you must select a creditable source-- preferably a recent source
since so much new information is being provided in books about bread-- and
stick with the program and give it a chance. Undoubtedly there will be some
here who will think that the source you have chosen is a bunch of junk. .
..live with it, it's no different than some folks perferring a Ford over a
Chevy.

Since this is a new hobby for you, you also need to do what we all have
done--lots of reading. Until you know a lot more and can discern good from
bad information, I don't believe that blindly searching the internet for
sourdough information is a good idea. Just remember that there are many
sources/authorities for training a dog and basically the only thing they
agree on is that a dog can be trained.

There are many people on both bread groups that are willing to help you.
This group is the preferred group for discussion regarding issues with
sourdough behavior and how it affects the bread process. Alt.bread.recipes
is the place to go for information about bread dough problems. It isn't
required that you worship in either place. You have made it pretty clear
that you got your nose out of joint by the kinds of responses that you have
received. A lot of good people, some professionals, tried to give you
advice which you immediately and rudely discounted, sometimes attacking
their integrity and professionalism--how do you think they felt about your
response? We wouldn't be persuing bread/sourdough bread as a hobby if it
didn't have difficult aspects that held the attention. Disparaging that
hobby while asking for help means that you have been on the receiving end of
an attitude that is either hostile or willing to let you sink or swim on
your own.

Janet