On 24 Oct 2003 16:25:36 GMT, Ignoramus785
wrote:

Unfortunately I have never achieved that.

you have a bad starter,

I need to clarify something. I have no starter whatsoever at this
stage. I have been trying to make a starter from scratch.

wait for the KA starter, which I hope is good.

What makes you suspect it might not be good?

No, you need to dump your starter in the toilet and get a good
starter.

That's what I have been doing, only I dump it in the sink.

It is quite possible, if not outright likely, that the starters you
will create are inferior to the ones that are most successful.

I suspect you are correct. But I got sucked in by the hype on websites
like Samartha's. Now I know it is just a ruse to get suckers like me
to expose their lack of success so the trolls will have someone to
attack.

What do you think of Wood's SF starter? It's a bit pricey but if it
lasts10 years I can justify the initial expense. Or should I just get
that other KA starter - the one that will presumably last a while? It
is not listed as a SF starter, and I did want to have a SF starter
going for the first time.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:42:59 -0700, Brian Mailman
wrote:

Talking about insecure

Knowing how to characterize abmormal human behavior is certainly not a
sign of insecurity. Are you intimidated by it?

you're terribly free to offer your nickel's worth of psych diagnoses.

Basic Psychiatry is not that difficult to learn if you have the right
resources. Try the Comprehensive Textbook Of Psychiatry or its
Synopsis - they are on amazon.com - and they are inexpensive for what
you get.

LIMEYNO1 wrote:

What a load of codswallop!

Well, Hellen, there has been a lot of hogswallop floating around lately, but not
in my posts. I review most of them with my cat and she is a tough editor. I
mostly try to be helpful with sourdough questions, which I was in the post you
commented upon.

You didn't like the ZenMaster quote? How about I say the same thing in the
words of another Master: "He who has an ear, let him hear" Mark 4:23 Prepare
yourself.

Bet you won't call that codswallop, even if it is a bit more cryptic way of
speaking.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Ignoramus785" said to=20
"Bob" in message ...

Given that the cost of starters is next to nil, or (in case of Carl's) =

zero cost, it makes sense to buy one instead of trying to start a=20
new one.

Just a word to the wise: the distribution of Carl's culture is done by
r.f.s. regulars who have been characterized in this thread as "trolls" ,
"charlatans", "cult members", etc.

(Definitely not recommended for "Bob"!)

On 24 Oct 2003 17:18:21 GMT, Ignoramus785
wrote:

I am not sure about specific content of those websites, but common
sense suggests that it should be hard to make a starter that would be
superior to established ones. Given that the cost of starters is next
to nil, or (in case of Carl's) zero cost, it makes sense to buy one
instead of trying to start a new one.

That's where I began my quest - trying to find one to buy in Houston.
I tried to talk that master baker at the bakehouse I have mentioned
before into giving me some of his starter but he said he couldn't
because of his insurance. He can sell/give away only foods that are
fully cooked. That's when he told me to start my own - he even faxed
me some pages from the sourdough article in the National Baking Center
book. I thought it would be easy, but obviously it is not.

I have no idea. I was given starter by my friend. It is a Russian
starter and it works like a charm every time. I have not tried any
other starters as I feel no need for it. I bake good bread every time,
nothing is broken, why should I bother.

Ok, this is a good time to ask you to comment on the worth of various
starters. I do not have to get a SF starter - especially if it is
frail. Wood sells a Russian starter - maybe that's the way to go. Also
KA sells a French starter. Maybe that's the way to go.

Comments, please.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 17:56:31 GMT, "Dick Adams"
wrote:

Just a word to the wise: the distribution of Carl's culture is done by
r.f.s. regulars who have been characterized in this thread as "trolls" ,
"charlatans", "cult members", etc.

(Definitely not recommended for "Bob"!)

I spotted that earlier today on Friends of Carl website and that's
when I decided not to get any. I could not trust anything from people
who have nothing better to do with their time than attack people.

On 24 Oct 2003 18:38:28 GMT, Ignoramus785
wrote:

I see. Well, in hindsight it looks like you spent a bunch of time
without corresponding benefits.

Even null experiments are instructive.

I can mail you my starter
just as a courtesy. email me at ichudov AT algebra DOT com with your
address if you are interested, I will dry some for you and mail it.

Thanks, I just sent you an email. Please let me know that you got it.

On 24 Oct 2003 19:20:40 GMT, Ignoramus785
wrote:

no I did not for some reason. Send it to yahoo, same username.

It must have taken a while to get there, because I just got your
reply.

Thank you so very much - you have been especially helpful.

In article ,
(Bob) wrote:

- snip -
Ok, this is a good time to ask you to comment on the worth of various
starters. I do not have to get a SF starter - especially if it is
frail. Wood sells a Russian starter - maybe that's the way to go. Also
KA sells a French starter. Maybe that's the way to go.

Comments, please.

I have the KA starter. It is a very nice starter. Not particulary
sour, but then I must have an anti-sour gene in me because Carls' which
is reportedly sour is not in my house in my bread. It rises very well
and I have never had to use additional yeast to get the bread to double
in size. I have used it successfully in breads, biscuits and pancakes.

The other starter I have is from a baking class I took in Monterey, CA.
The chef gave us little containers of her starter. She also used grapes
to get it going. Controversial here I know, but seemingly not among
professional bakers. At any rate, I love it and it's a bit more sour
than the KA starter.

Why not order one and just get going and see how things work? After you
get into the swing of using a starter and baking bread successfully,
maybe you will develop the touch for starting one yourself.

marcella

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:40:13 GMT, Marcella Tracy Peek
wrote:

Ok, this is a good time to ask you to comment on the worth of various
starters. I do not have to get a SF starter - especially if it is
frail. Wood sells a Russian starter - maybe that's the way to go. Also
KA sells a French starter. Maybe that's the way to go.

Comments, please.

I have the KA starter. It is a very nice starter.

Which one do you have? There are three listed on the KA shopping site.

She also used grapes
to get it going. Controversial here I know, but seemingly not among
professional bakers. At any rate, I love it and it's a bit more sour
than the KA starter.

That master baker I have spoken about said to use grapes if I could
not get it going naturally. Can you tell us how she did it? The baker
said to wash the grime off the grapes but do not over-wash them, then
soak them in water and use that water to make the starter.

Why not order one and just get going and see how things work?

I have already ordered the SF starter. It's the one in a 5 oz. packet.
I am told it will die off after 4 feeding but KA claims I can get 12
loaves out of it. That works out to about a year's baking for me,
since I make 3 baguettes with the same amout of dough that people use
for 1-2 large loaves.

After you
get into the swing of using a starter and baking bread successfully,
maybe you will develop the touch for starting one yourself.

I'm going to try that grape technique.

"Marcella Tracy Peek" wrote:

snip

The other starter I have is from a baking class I took in Monterey, CA.
The chef gave us little containers of her starter. She also used grapes
to get it going. Controversial here I know, but seemingly not among
professional bakers. At any rate, I love it and it's a bit more sour
than the KA starter.

snip

marcella

Marcella:

I don't know that anyone would consider using grapes controversial just
unnecessary. I doubt it causes any harm since a lot of people do it.

Now, dancing naked for the sourdough gods is a step that is absolutely
necessary. I think Dick has some pictures on his website.

-Mike

Ignoramus785 wrote:

I heard somewhere that the famous "san francisco" starter is known for
not being able to survive mailing well. Could be wrong.

Yes, I believe you are. Certain "SF starters" such as Goldrush aren't
good just to begin with it.

I mail doughballs of it frequently and have never had a complaint about
the revivability.

B/

Bob wrote:

On 24 Oct 2003 14:17:13 GMT, Ignoramus785
wrote:

Hi Bob.

What starter are you using? I am sure you mentioned it but I forgot.

The only successful starter was made with commercial baker's yeast.

I have not been able to get one going on its own. I have a starter on
order from KA.

In case if you are using a vibrant, known good starter from a good
source.

Unfortunately this will have to wait a few more days until I get my KA
starter.

Prepare a big quantity of starter in a ripe condition.

Unfortunately I have never achieved that.

Maybe, as someone suggested, I am being too impatient and I need to
feed my culture for 10 days. The culture shows initial signs of
activity and it responds in the same way each time I feed it. When I
don't feed it, it settles into dense flour on the bottom and hootch on
the top.

But no matter what I do - change flours, blend flours, closed
container, open container, etc, the culture never progresses to the
high-foam stage - where it doubles in size. In addition although it
does have a slight beer smell - it has never smelled rancid - it has
never smelled sour.

There is something fundamentally wrong here and it is not me - or at
least I do not know of anything I am doing to cause this problem. I
have enough experience making commercial yeast breads to know if
something simple is wrong.

The experts claim I should see definitive activity in as little as 8
hours and certainly by 24-48 hours. I feed it on schedule so that is
not the problem, but nothing definitive happens. I even fed one
culture twice a day for 5 days with no definitive results.

At this point in my experiments, all I can conclude is that I do not
have any significant amount of fermenting agent, either flour-borne
yeast or atmospheric wild yeast. It's not like I am doing this in the
heart of the city - I live on the outskirts of Houston next to a large
dam and wooded area. There has to be wild yeasts around here.

I think I will try to "catch" some wild yeast by conducting the next
experiment outside. I will use 3/8 cup of KA bread flour and 1/8 cup
of Arrohead ground rye in 1/2 cup of distilled water. I use a wide
mouth (6") rubbermaid container so there is plenty of surface area to
catch something.

Is it possible that I have an airborne pathenogen that is killing my
culture. I do have a couple of beagles that live outside but do come
in on occasion and roam the house, including the kitchen. Other than
that, I can think of nothing other than the laundry room off the
kitchen.

I have read on websites that the beginner is discouraged from trying
to start their own culture. The only reason I am trying to beat the
odds is because so many people on this forum have indicated that it is
very easy. I read that one person achieved success all along the
California coast with one exception - the Los Angeles basin. Is there
something about the Houston air that is causing my problem.

I live a long distance from the major sources of pollution in the
Houstion Metro Area, but there are roads that are heavily travelled
nearby. Sometimes I can smell the slightest hint of exhaust fumes -
but that is very rare since we usually have a breeze out here that
dissipates auto pollution.

There has to be a rational scientific explanation for this, and being
a scientist by profession, I have another reason to pursue this -
curiosity. I don't like unsolved mysteries.

Next week I will know a lot more when I get that KA starter. Each time
I try something, I gain a little more insight - especially when kind
people like you take the time to explain things to me. Thanks to you
and all the others who have been so helpful. I know working together
we will get to the bottom of this.

BTW one other strange thing - I did a comprehensive search all over
Houston and could not find one store where I could get sourdough
starter. Greater Houston is the 4th largest Metro Area in the US and I
certainly am not the only sourdough home baker here. I bet there are
at least 100 stores in SF where one can buy starter.

Bob, e-mail me your mailing address and I will send you a teaspoonful of the
Oregon Trail starter, dried and powdered. Mix one cup of AP flour and
somewhere between two thirds and one cup of water. Then stand back, the stuff
will try to climb out of the container in four to six hours, perhaps less.

You should be able to figure out my unmunged e-mail address.

Bert

In article ,
(Bob) wrote:

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:40:13 GMT, Marcella Tracy Peek
wrote:

I have the KA starter. It is a very nice starter.

Which one do you have? There are three listed on the KA shopping site.

I have the classic New England Sourdough Starter. It comes in a jar as
a thick dough. There are directions for feeding and a recipe.

The other two aren't starters per se, rather powdered yeasts and
bacteria to give different flavors that are made into a sponge with the
entire sponge being used in a recipe. They say that the sponge won't
keep like a starter. I bought them both and the bread was pretty good.
Someone here was going to try to keep one going as a starter but I don't
recall them reporting back on success or failure.

She also used grapes
to get it going. Controversial here I know, but seemingly not among
professional bakers. At any rate, I love it and it's a bit more sour
than the KA starter.

That master baker I have spoken about said to use grapes if I could
not get it going naturally. Can you tell us how she did it? The baker
said to wash the grime off the grapes but do not over-wash them, then
soak them in water and use that water to make the starter.

Nope. She did it a la Nancy Silverton where you wash the grapes and put
them into the flour-water mixture.

I'm going to try that grape technique.


Let us know how it goes.

marcella

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:28:32 GMT,
wrote:

Bob, e-mail me your mailing address and I will send you a teaspoonful of the
Oregon Trail starter, dried and powdered.

Thanks, I just sent you an email. Please let me know if you do not get
it.

You all are so helpful - I will evaluate each of your starters and let
you know my results. The poster with handle "Ignoramus78", who is also
sending me some starter of his by snailmail, urged me to follow the
procedures on the forum FAQ, which I have read before but not
critically. If I have any questions I will ask first rather than screw
things up out of ignorance.

The one redeeming thing about this hobby is that it is so inexpensive.
Where else can you spend hours making something that you can end up
eating (if successful) for only a dollar in components? My wife points
out how many times I have thrown away failed experiments, but I remind
her that it only cost me a dollar or so.

Notice that I have just elevated bread making from a necessity to a
hobby - it appears that I am hooked now. That's because of the
interest you have shown in helping me. Thanks again.

And now for the meal of the day: Deep fried lemon-herb marinated, corn
bread-coated catfish fillets on authentic sourdough bread with New
Orleans Blue Plate mayonnaise (on both pieces of bread) and dill
pickle slices (on one piece of bread). Zap it in the microwave to warm
the bread - 10 seconds on full power per side.

I guarantee you this will be one of the greatest eating experiences of
your life. The tanginess of the lemon-herb marinade, the subtle flavor
of the catfish, the tart taste of the mayonnaise and pickles and the
sour taste of the bread all combine to create a taste sensation that
is unequalled in any other sandwich.

I wonder what a sourdough New Orleans Muffaletta would taste like?
Probably so good it would have to be outlawed for fear of mass
addiction.