On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:11:30 -0600, Samartha Deva
wrote:

Bob wrote:

Something is clearly wrong here.

That's probably the only thing you got right so far.

Just go on, keep calling around, build your theories and report back,
it's very entertaining.

Samartha

I hope my followup posts are entertaining you, because for the rest of
the readers on this forum they are a wake up call to be on guard next
time you post anything.

You managed to fool a lot of people for a long time, but all it took
was this one post to shatter that illusion for anyone with enough
common sense to know that true professionals do not behave the way you
are behaving.

True professionals do not berate people less knowledgeable. The only
people who do that are pseudos who have to hide their insecurity
behind a wall of invective.

You have exposed yourself as a charlatan by your own hand - no one had
to do it for you. You just as well shut down your website because the
only people who will ever visit it now are people who lack common
sense.

Bob wrote:

There has to be a logical explanation why some people can make a
starter and others can't. I have tried several times and all I get is
dead glop.

I don't know for sure, but I would first suspect bad Karma in your kitchen and
it is a fairly good bet that you have managed to **** off the Bread Faeries.

There is a saying atributed to Zen Masters that is something like: "When the
student is ready, the teacher will appear." Prepare yourself.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:52:13 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
wrote:

I go along with the camp that the whole meal
(in my case organic rye) carries the beasties for fermentation with them.

Then why can't I and some others get the damn thing to start properly?

Perhaps this has been asked, but are you using fresh whole meal? I ground my
own from organic rye berries. (I am not saying you have to do this, but it
worked for me right off from the start. I didn't try other flours. )

Perhaps the flour you are using came from rye or wheat berries that were
fumigated or otherwise "debugged" in some way. I am sorry if somebody
already mentioned this.

Regards,
Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

wrote:

Besides the great accomplishment of requoting the long post, just in
case somebody is unable to get to the previous text.

I would recommend the poster to actually research:

a - what the microorganisms in sourdoughs are

The microorganisms in sourdough are a symbiosis of one of three possible
yeasts and at least 6 different lactobacillus. Of the later there is L.
plantarum, L. mindiensis, L. pontis, L. oris, L. reuterii. These were up to a
few years ago collectively called L. sanfranciscensis but have now been found
to be different strains. The name persists. I forget what the yeasts are but
they may be Saccharomyces cerevisae (used in beer-making also) and s. mycetus.

That's pretty good but that they were called collectively LB SF is
incorrect.

I take the first one: L. plantarum, apparently discovered by Orla-Jensen
1919, LB SF was named around 1971 by Kline/Sugihara & ?, so plantarum
could not be named like that or even closely put into a category
discovered 50 years later.


b - where microorganisms found in sourdough cultures are naturally
occurring

At Friends of Carl.

Well, you did not get the question, I was not asking for that.

I will continue with L. plantarum:
facultative heterofermentative, isolated from milk products, silage,
sauerkraut, pickled vegetables, cow dung, sourdough, sewage, intestinal
tract, mouth and feces of humans.

Things like that would be of interest when they should be floating in
from whereever they hang out.

c - how they propagate

You send a request and possibly a contribution and wait for it to arrive.

Again, that's not very enlightening.

What interests me is how they survive cold, dryness, adverse conditions
and how they perpetuate, in particular, if they, or their "eggs" can fly
in the air.


d - what the common germs and germ counts in your "ambient" are

Who cares...

That depends. In another post, you mention that:

When creating a starter from scratch with just flour and water you are
actually trying to capture the yeast and bacillus from the ambient. But the
issue is whether there is yeast and bacillus in YOUR environment.

If it would be working that way, the germs in the "ambient" would need
to be able to out compete the germs in the flour - if there are any.

I'll skip the rest of your "who cares" answers.

--

Damn... you sure sound like Mike Scarpitti.

I take it that you mean this to be derogatory. Maybe you can give me the
courtesy to be sounding just like me?

Thank you,

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:32:17 GMT, Charles Perry
wrote:

There has to be a logical explanation why some people can make a
starter and others can't. I have tried several times and all I get is
dead glop.

I don't know for sure, but I would first suspect bad Karma in your kitchen and
it is a fairly good bet that you have managed to **** off the Bread Faeries.

No faeries in my house. No demons either. And apparently I have a
yeast-free environment too.

Maybe I will take this problem to the backyard.

There is a saying atributed to Zen Masters that is something like: "When the
student is ready, the teacher will appear." Prepare yourself.

Good Grief! You have to indulge in mysticism to bake sourdough bread?

What a load of codswallop!

--
Helen

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith that
saves is faith in Him


www.peagramfamily.com
http://www.mompeagram.homestead.com/

225/205/145
"Charles Perry" wrote in message
...


Bob wrote:

There has to be a logical explanation why some people can make a
starter and others can't. I have tried several times and all I get is
dead glop.

I don't know for sure, but I would first suspect bad Karma in your kitchen
and
it is a fairly good bet that you have managed to **** off the Bread
Faeries.

There is a saying atributed to Zen Masters that is something like: "When
the
student is ready, the teacher will appear." Prepare yourself.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:36:51 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
wrote:

Then why can't I and some others get the damn thing to start properly?

Perhaps this has been asked, but are you using fresh whole meal? I ground my
own from organic rye berries. (I am not saying you have to do this, but it
worked for me right off from the start. I didn't try other flours. )

Perhaps the flour you are using came from rye or wheat berries that were
fumigated or otherwise "debugged" in some way. I am sorry if somebody
already mentioned this.

I have considered that possibility. The rye is whole grain supplied by
Arrowhead. The store even kept it in the refrigerator for freshness. I
have also tried adding KA bread flour. And I tried a grocery store rye
by Pillsbury called Medium Rye Flour. None of these would start for
me, covered or uncovered in my kitchen.

It's possible they are all sterilized, but no one has said anything
about such a possibility much less mentioned brands known to work. I
asked that master baker I spoke with on the phone about this and he
said most flours are not sterilized. But then he is one of those who
believes starters catch microorganisms from the air.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:58:25 -0400, "LIMEYNO1"
wrote:

What a load of codswallop!

You got that right, blimey.

in article , Bob at
wrote on 24/10/03 4:19 am:

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:11:30 -0600, Samartha Deva
wrote:

Bob wrote:

Something is clearly wrong here.

That's probably the only thing you got right so far.

Just go on, keep calling around, build your theories and report back,
it's very entertaining.

Samartha

Do you notice that this poster never answers any of the questions
posed by those who do not blindly accept his pontifications? The
reason is simple - he does not know the answers.

That's why he has to resort to being churlish to cover up for the fact
that he really does not know what he is talking about. He is a member
of the dysfunctional psychopathic cult that tries to bully people who
do not worship at their altar.

Hey, Big Shot - wake up and smell the coffee. There are true
professionals on here who do not accept your pronouncements,
especially when they run counter to conventional wisdom and you fail
to defend them when they are criticized.

You may think that because a handful of your cult friends stroke you
now and then that you are above reproach. But that is not how the real
world operates.

If you posit a hypothesis about how starters work, you need to defend
that hypothesis in a scientific, professional manner and not hide
behind smart alec comments like the ones above.

All your comments above have done is to expose you as a fraud in the
eyes of those who are smarter than worship at your cult altar.

You blew it, dude - you had the vast majority of readers convinced
that you knew what you are talking about. Now they know who you really
are.

How about desisting for a while and letting the rest of this newsgroup
consist of information and interchange that all of us want to read. You
seem intent on taking up most of the postings here. Please don't. Ellen

"Ellen Wickberg" wrote in message =
...

[ ... ]

How about desisting for a while and letting the rest of this newsgroup
consist of information and interchange that all of us want to read. =
You
seem intent on taking up most of the postings here. Please don't.

Well, Ellen, you can use your "block-sender" function. But you will
still see a few replies, some of them still seriously attempting to be
helpful.

---
DickA =20

"Bob"
I hope my followup posts are entertaining you, because for the rest of
the readers on this forum they are a wake up call to be on guard next
time you post anything.

But you have yet to bring anything of substance to the party.....as the self
appointed guardian of the "can't ferment the flour and water club" your
contributions have been without substance, fact or information. Samartha on
the other hand does know his bread demonstrated with pictures,
information(here and his web site) and testimonials

You managed to fool a lot of people for a long time, but all it took
was this one post to shatter that illusion for anyone with enough
common sense to know that true professionals do not behave the way you
are behaving.

It is my understanding that bread wise he is not a professional but rather a
amateur with a true passion for bread

True professionals do not berate people less knowledgeable. The only
people who do that are pseudos who have to hide their insecurity
behind a wall of invective.

Granted both Dick and Samartha may have some trouble suffering through a
fool and may get condescending on a occasion but at least they both know
bread, have done suitable research and have sufficient experience to be a
valuable resource here.....incidentally in this little flame war to my
reckoning it was you who started with the insults including such comments as
" Oh oh - you just committed a heresy on this cult forum" ...obviously
designed to elicit further help advice and suggestions

You have exposed yourself as a charlatan by your own hand - no one had
to do it for you. You just as well shut down your website because the
only people who will ever visit it now are people who lack common
sense.

Your kidding right..... Soggy

On 24 Oct 2003 14:17:13 GMT, Ignoramus785
wrote:

Hi Bob.

What starter are you using? I am sure you mentioned it but I forgot.

The only successful starter was made with commercial baker's yeast.

I have not been able to get one going on its own. I have a starter on
order from KA.

In case if you are using a vibrant, known good starter from a good
source.

Unfortunately this will have to wait a few more days until I get my KA
starter.

Prepare a big quantity of starter in a ripe condition.

Unfortunately I have never achieved that.

Maybe, as someone suggested, I am being too impatient and I need to
feed my culture for 10 days. The culture shows initial signs of
activity and it responds in the same way each time I feed it. When I
don't feed it, it settles into dense flour on the bottom and hootch on
the top.

But no matter what I do - change flours, blend flours, closed
container, open container, etc, the culture never progresses to the
high-foam stage - where it doubles in size. In addition although it
does have a slight beer smell - it has never smelled rancid - it has
never smelled sour.

There is something fundamentally wrong here and it is not me - or at
least I do not know of anything I am doing to cause this problem. I
have enough experience making commercial yeast breads to know if
something simple is wrong.

The experts claim I should see definitive activity in as little as 8
hours and certainly by 24-48 hours. I feed it on schedule so that is
not the problem, but nothing definitive happens. I even fed one
culture twice a day for 5 days with no definitive results.

At this point in my experiments, all I can conclude is that I do not
have any significant amount of fermenting agent, either flour-borne
yeast or atmospheric wild yeast. It's not like I am doing this in the
heart of the city - I live on the outskirts of Houston next to a large
dam and wooded area. There has to be wild yeasts around here.

I think I will try to "catch" some wild yeast by conducting the next
experiment outside. I will use 3/8 cup of KA bread flour and 1/8 cup
of Arrohead ground rye in 1/2 cup of distilled water. I use a wide
mouth (6") rubbermaid container so there is plenty of surface area to
catch something.

Is it possible that I have an airborne pathenogen that is killing my
culture. I do have a couple of beagles that live outside but do come
in on occasion and roam the house, including the kitchen. Other than
that, I can think of nothing other than the laundry room off the
kitchen.

I have read on websites that the beginner is discouraged from trying
to start their own culture. The only reason I am trying to beat the
odds is because so many people on this forum have indicated that it is
very easy. I read that one person achieved success all along the
California coast with one exception - the Los Angeles basin. Is there
something about the Houston air that is causing my problem.

I live a long distance from the major sources of pollution in the
Houstion Metro Area, but there are roads that are heavily travelled
nearby. Sometimes I can smell the slightest hint of exhaust fumes -
but that is very rare since we usually have a breeze out here that
dissipates auto pollution.

There has to be a rational scientific explanation for this, and being
a scientist by profession, I have another reason to pursue this -
curiosity. I don't like unsolved mysteries.

Next week I will know a lot more when I get that KA starter. Each time
I try something, I gain a little more insight - especially when kind
people like you take the time to explain things to me. Thanks to you
and all the others who have been so helpful. I know working together
we will get to the bottom of this.

BTW one other strange thing - I did a comprehensive search all over
Houston and could not find one store where I could get sourdough
starter. Greater Houston is the 4th largest Metro Area in the US and I
certainly am not the only sourdough home baker here. I bet there are
at least 100 stores in SF where one can buy starter.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:29:51 GMT, Ellen Wickberg
wrote:

How about desisting for a while and letting the rest of this newsgroup
consist of information and interchange that all of us want to read. You
seem intent on taking up most of the postings here. Please don't. Ellen

I will desist only when the trolls stop attacking.

In the meantime may I recommend using the DEL key.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:39:58 -0700, "Rod & BJ"
wrote:

But you have yet to bring anything of substance to the party.....as the self
appointed guardian of the "can't ferment the flour and water club" your
contributions have been without substance, fact or information. Samartha on
the other hand does know his bread demonstrated with pictures,
information(here and his web site) and testimonials

Although my comments are not shaped into the cult-approved format -
IOW, I do not pontificate like these so-called cult "experts" - I have
supplied a lot of information at the neophyte level. I have given
detailed accounts of my experiments.

Granted both Dick and Samartha may have some trouble suffering through a
fool

If there is one thing I am not, it is a fool. Any attempts to
characterize me as such will be met with strong rebuttal.

and may get condescending

That is the unmistakeable sign of someone who is insecure - and
certainly is not the way a true professional conducts himself or
herself.

on a occasion

That's an understatement. They have engaged in visious attacks from
the very first post.

but at least they both know bread,

They say they know bread, and I gave them the benefit of the doubt
until they attacked me. Now I am convinced that they are fakes.

have done suitable research and have sufficient experience to be a
valuable resource here

Oh, please - get off your knees. You do yourself a disservice
worshiping at the cult altar of these obvious lunatics.

.incidentally in this little flame war to my
reckoning it was you who started with the insults including such comments as
" Oh oh - you just committed a heresy on this cult forum" ...obviously
designed to elicit further help advice and suggestions

You are guilty of selective recall. Go look at ALL the posts starting
from the very first one where I opened a thread entitled "Chewy French
Baguette". That phrase can be found all over the Internet, including
the King Arthur Flour website. Yet these trolls used it as an occasion
for derision at the very outset.

Rational people can spot when someone is trying to put down a neophyte
just to make themselves look superior.

You have exposed yourself as a charlatan by your own hand - no one had
to do it for you. You just as well shut down your website because the
only people who will ever visit it now are people who lack common
sense.

Your kidding right..... Soggy

Unless you like being led on a Merry Chase, or enjoy misinformation,
my comment stands.

I am not the only one who can't get a starter going. And it is
certainly not justification for all the attacks, including homicidal
castration fantasies by people who are clearly psychopathic.

I came here to learn, not be the brunt of attacks from people who are
no more than trolls. If you review the entire history of this matter
you will see that I am not at fault anywhere. My rebuttals are meant
to point out the obvious unprofessional behavior of these cultist
charlatans.

Bob wrote:

It's not the Emperor who has no sourdough.

Talking about insecure.... you're terribly free to offer your nickel's
worth of psych diagnoses.

B/