Hi,

I've never posted to this group before, but now I have a little
question that I couldn't find the answer to on the newsgroup, or in
the FAQs.

I've been baking bread successfully for a while, with great results,
but I've never tried baaking with a sourdough starter. As a beginner,
I ordered a sample of the "Friends of Carl" starter, which should
hopefully arrive here soon. I also bought Ed Wood's "World Sourdoughs
from Antiquity". I think I'm headed in the right direction, but I'm a
little confused. I have two sets of instructions for activating that
starter- one is recommended on the Friends of Carl web site, and the
other is the method in Ed Wood's book. Which one do I use, and why?

The reason for my confusion is that the two sources contradict each
other. The instrucions for that starter recommends using milk or
potato water, and sugar. Ed Wood teaches us to never add milk, that
potato water is unneccesary, and not to add any sugar. Just white
flour and water.

What gives? I'd appreciate any help.

Since I'm already here, I have another little question. I was thinking
of making my first bunch of loaves either the simple pan bread recipe
on the Friends of Carl web site, or the World Bread recipe in Wood's
book. Which should I choose, and why?

Thanks!

Gord

Hi Gord!

Do the Carl's brochures still have the potatoe/milk addition
recommended?

This post is a great example for the mind blowing contradictions with
sourdough baking a new person inquiring about this has to face.

If the Carl's brochure/information had sugar/potatoe/milk additions in
there and it is for historical reasons, it should be mentioned and also
that it works just fine without.

Who wants to go and buy milk and potatoes to get this starter going and
then later find out that it works just fine without it?

In a way it's discrediting to Carl's sourdough issue and puts it closer
to the grape full moon air critter sourdough catching superstition
folklore folks.

Now, what is better - the Wood or Carl's pan bread recipe?

with the Carl's pan bread recipe, I assume you mean this one:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di.../panbread.html

which I like better than Wood's which has butter milk and sugar which
IMO go into cakes and have very little to do with breads where I am
coming from. But that's a personal preference, they both work. With the
Woods recipe, I mean the manual recipe, not the bread machine.

For the one's not having access to the book:

4 c culture from first proof
2 T butter
1 c milk
2 t salt
2 T sugar
6 c white bread flour

after mixing it's 1 1/2 - 3 hours rise at 85 F, then bake @ 375 for 10,
then 350, all in baking pans.

Samartha


Gord wrote:

Hi,

I've never posted to this group before, but now I have a little
question that I couldn't find the answer to on the newsgroup, or in
the FAQs.

I've been baking bread successfully for a while, with great results,
but I've never tried baaking with a sourdough starter. As a beginner,
I ordered a sample of the "Friends of Carl" starter, which should
hopefully arrive here soon. I also bought Ed Wood's "World Sourdoughs
from Antiquity". I think I'm headed in the right direction, but I'm a
little confused. I have two sets of instructions for activating that
starter- one is recommended on the Friends of Carl web site, and the
other is the method in Ed Wood's book. Which one do I use, and why?

The reason for my confusion is that the two sources contradict each
other. The instrucions for that starter recommends using milk or
potato water, and sugar. Ed Wood teaches us to never add milk, that
potato water is unneccesary, and not to add any sugar. Just white
flour and water.

What gives? I'd appreciate any help.

Since I'm already here, I have another little question. I was thinking
of making my first bunch of loaves either the simple pan bread recipe
on the Friends of Carl web site, or the World Bread recipe in Wood's
book. Which should I choose, and why?

Thanks!

Gord

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

I have just ordered Carl's starter, so what is your recommendations for activating the starter.
I am totally confused...I have been trying 8 times to get a starter going that begins with milk and yogurt and have gotten it to the bread rising stage, but no rising...
I don't want to give up, but I honestly don't know where to begin...any help will be appreciated.
I have been studying the FAQ.
Thanks,
Mary
"Samartha Deva" wrote in message ...
Hi Gord!

Do the Carl's brochures still have the potatoe/milk addition
recommended?

This post is a great example for the mind blowing contradictions with
sourdough baking a new person inquiring about this has to face.

If the Carl's brochure/information had sugar/potatoe/milk additions in
there and it is for historical reasons, it should be mentioned and also
that it works just fine without.

Who wants to go and buy milk and potatoes to get this starter going and
then later find out that it works just fine without it?

In a way it's discrediting to Carl's sourdough issue and puts it closer
to the grape full moon air critter sourdough catching superstition
folklore folks.

Now, what is better - the Wood or Carl's pan bread recipe?

with the Carl's pan bread recipe, I assume you mean this one:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di.../panbread.html

which I like better than Wood's which has butter milk and sugar which
IMO go into cakes and have very little to do with breads where I am
coming from. But that's a personal preference, they both work. With the
Woods recipe, I mean the manual recipe, not the bread machine.

For the one's not having access to the book:

4 c culture from first proof
2 T butter
1 c milk
2 t salt
2 T sugar
6 c white bread flour

after mixing it's 1 1/2 - 3 hours rise at 85 F, then bake @ 375 for 10,
then 350, all in baking pans.

Samartha


Gord wrote:

Hi,

I've never posted to this group before, but now I have a little
question that I couldn't find the answer to on the newsgroup, or in
the FAQs.

I've been baking bread successfully for a while, with great results,
but I've never tried baaking with a sourdough starter. As a beginner,
I ordered a sample of the "Friends of Carl" starter, which should
hopefully arrive here soon. I also bought Ed Wood's "World Sourdoughs
from Antiquity". I think I'm headed in the right direction, but I'm a
little confused. I have two sets of instructions for activating that
starter- one is recommended on the Friends of Carl web site, and the
other is the method in Ed Wood's book. Which one do I use, and why?

The reason for my confusion is that the two sources contradict each
other. The instrucions for that starter recommends using milk or
potato water, and sugar. Ed Wood teaches us to never add milk, that
potato water is unneccesary, and not to add any sugar. Just white
flour and water.

What gives? I'd appreciate any help.

Since I'm already here, I have another little question. I was thinking
of making my first bunch of loaves either the simple pan bread recipe
on the Friends of Carl web site, or the World Bread recipe in Wood's
book. Which should I choose, and why?

Thanks!

Gord

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Hi Mary,

drake wrote:

Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
Encoding: quoted-printable


hmh - I wonder what happened here?

Anyway, I just paste the post he

I have just ordered Carl's starter, so what is your recommendations for activating the starter.
I am totally confused...I have been trying 8 times to get a starter going that begins with milk and yogurt and have gotten it to the bread rising stage, but no rising...

Ok, you sure have endurance. Now, if you would share the recipe, or a
reference to it It could be added to the latest edition of 2000
misleading starter recipes guaranteed to frustrate you.

I don't want to give up, but I honestly don't know where to begin...any help will be appreciated.

You did order the Carl's - that's a possibility to get a good starter.

What is written in the Carl's brochure works, I would stir it more often
than what's written in the 2. paragraph and you sure can leave out the
potatoes and the sugar.

Other than that, if you want to grow your own, the best is full grain
rye, water and some time.

Have a look the

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

Maybe it inspires you and if you go that route and need assistance, just
post here or send email from the web pages.

The milk, yoghourt, grape, potato and other fashionable ingredients are
for the more advanced sourdough souls working on the 2000 misleading
starter recipe book.

I have been studying the FAQ.

And? Any insights or more confusion ;-)

Good luck,

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Thanks so much for responding....I truly am exasperated...the only thing I can think of is I kneaded it in a bread mixer with a metal hook....is it forbidden to use metal utensils on sourdough...?

And many thanks I will use your starter...
Mary

"Samartha Deva" wrote in message ...
Hi Mary,

drake wrote:

Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
Encoding: quoted-printable


hmh - I wonder what happened here?

Anyway, I just paste the post he

I have just ordered Carl's starter, so what is your recommendations for activating the starter.
I am totally confused...I have been trying 8 times to get a starter going that begins with milk and yogurt and have gotten it to the bread rising stage, but no rising...

Ok, you sure have endurance. Now, if you would share the recipe, or a
reference to it It could be added to the latest edition of 2000
misleading starter recipes guaranteed to frustrate you.

I don't want to give up, but I honestly don't know where to begin...any help will be appreciated.

You did order the Carl's - that's a possibility to get a good starter.

What is written in the Carl's brochure works, I would stir it more often
than what's written in the 2. paragraph and you sure can leave out the
potatoes and the sugar.

Other than that, if you want to grow your own, the best is full grain
rye, water and some time.

Have a look the

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

Maybe it inspires you and if you go that route and need assistance, just
post here or send email from the web pages.

The milk, yoghourt, grape, potato and other fashionable ingredients are
for the more advanced sourdough souls working on the 2000 misleading
starter recipe book.

I have been studying the FAQ.

And? Any insights or more confusion ;-)

Good luck,

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Sorry forgot to answer you question on the FAQ...just a little intimidating for a raw beginner, but I really want to do this...I am on a diet that allows sourdough bread and I have not found a bought one with crunchy crust of good texture...
Do you have any book recommendations in addition to your site which is superb , by the way.
Many thanks again.
Mary
"Samartha Deva" wrote in message ...
Hi Mary,

drake wrote:

Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
Encoding: quoted-printable


hmh - I wonder what happened here?

Anyway, I just paste the post he

I have just ordered Carl's starter, so what is your recommendations for activating the starter.
I am totally confused...I have been trying 8 times to get a starter going that begins with milk and yogurt and have gotten it to the bread rising stage, but no rising...

Ok, you sure have endurance. Now, if you would share the recipe, or a
reference to it It could be added to the latest edition of 2000
misleading starter recipes guaranteed to frustrate you.

I don't want to give up, but I honestly don't know where to begin...any help will be appreciated.

You did order the Carl's - that's a possibility to get a good starter.

What is written in the Carl's brochure works, I would stir it more often
than what's written in the 2. paragraph and you sure can leave out the
potatoes and the sugar.

Other than that, if you want to grow your own, the best is full grain
rye, water and some time.

Have a look the

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

Maybe it inspires you and if you go that route and need assistance, just
post here or send email from the web pages.

The milk, yoghourt, grape, potato and other fashionable ingredients are
for the more advanced sourdough souls working on the 2000 misleading
starter recipe book.

I have been studying the FAQ.

And? Any insights or more confusion ;-)

Good luck,

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

drake wrote:

Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks so much for responding....I truly am exasperated...the only thing I can think of is I kneaded it in a bread mixer with a metal hook....is it forbidden to use metal utensils on sourdough...?

Not at all - just when you grow a starter, it may not be such a good
idea, but the full real facts elude me.

If one uses a lower grade metal (not sure if that's the right term) like
aluminum or cast iron, it will oxidize or interact with the starter's
acid if in contact with it for a long time. The mixing process does not
take that long, just don't let the hook (if it's aluminum) sit in the
dough for an hour. I use plastic or wood baskets for rising, sometimes
stainless steel bowls.

If one uses aluminum, cast iron or non stainless steel utensils or
containers, it could maybe affect the taste and to look at the black
spots from oxidizing in a dough, it's not really inviting to eat.

And many thanks I will use your starter...

Not my starter, just trying to get it simplified and documented because
of the 2000+ not so great starter recipes floating around.

Hey - what was the goofy milk/yogurt recipe you were using?

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

drake wrote:

Hi, please don't post in HTML in newsgroups... for one thing, some ISPs
filter out HTML in non-binary messages, guaranteeing that some won't see
your posts. For another, the same message in HTML (web language) is
much much larger than one in "ASCII" (plain text) and some people
outside the US/Canada do pay for their time online by the minute, by the
purchased unit, and/or amount of data downloaded.

If you *must* post on HTML, please be considerate enough to make your
text large enough to be readable. Thanks. Now, on to your problem.

I have just ordered Carl's starter, so what is your recommendations
for activating the starter.

Like Samartha said, follow the directions. (I remember making some
chile-cheese muffins with my sister-in-law once and modifying the
procedures given and ingredients, etc. She said when the failed project
was done, "you think it would have different if we'd followed the
directions?")

Don't be a 'starter mucker' and put in all kinds of fancy things. Just
flour and water.

Think about it. Did the Yukon or Gold Rush miners have room in the
backpacks for all those things, and did they prefer to muck about with
making bread or panning for gold?

B/

Sorry another newsgroup requires HTML and I did not change...I should have
remembered..and many thanks for your comments...
I greatly appreciate all the help I can get...
Mary
"Brian Mailman" wrote in message
...
drake wrote:

Hi, please don't post in HTML in newsgroups... for one thing, some ISPs
filter out HTML in non-binary messages, guaranteeing that some won't see
your posts. For another, the same message in HTML (web language) is
much much larger than one in "ASCII" (plain text) and some people
outside the US/Canada do pay for their time online by the minute, by the
purchased unit, and/or amount of data downloaded.

If you *must* post on HTML, please be considerate enough to make your
text large enough to be readable. Thanks. Now, on to your problem.

I have just ordered Carl's starter, so what is your recommendations
for activating the starter.

Like Samartha said, follow the directions. (I remember making some
chile-cheese muffins with my sister-in-law once and modifying the
procedures given and ingredients, etc. She said when the failed project
was done, "you think it would have different if we'd followed the
directions?")

Don't be a 'starter mucker' and put in all kinds of fancy things. Just
flour and water.

Think about it. Did the Yukon or Gold Rush miners have room in the
backpacks for all those things, and did they prefer to muck about with
making bread or panning for gold?

B/

No I just mixed in the mixer for 12 minutes..and no metal contact until the
mixing...so perhaps my starter was not ready...thanks again and here is the
recipe I used...

1 cup milk
2 tablespoons yogurt
Heat it and cover tightly and let stand for one day. Then add 1 cup flour
and let stand until mix is very bubbly ususally around 3-4 days.

"Samartha Deva" wrote in message
...
drake wrote:

Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks so much for responding....I truly am exasperated...the only thing I
can think of is I kneaded it in a bread mixer with a metal hook....is it
forbidden to use metal utensils on sourdough...?

Not at all - just when you grow a starter, it may not be such a good
idea, but the full real facts elude me.

If one uses a lower grade metal (not sure if that's the right term) like
aluminum or cast iron, it will oxidize or interact with the starter's
acid if in contact with it for a long time. The mixing process does not
take that long, just don't let the hook (if it's aluminum) sit in the
dough for an hour. I use plastic or wood baskets for rising, sometimes
stainless steel bowls.

If one uses aluminum, cast iron or non stainless steel utensils or
containers, it could maybe affect the taste and to look at the black
spots from oxidizing in a dough, it's not really inviting to eat.

And many thanks I will use your starter...

Not my starter, just trying to get it simplified and documented because
of the 2000+ not so great starter recipes floating around.

Hey - what was the goofy milk/yogurt recipe you were using?

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

drake wrote:

Sorry another newsgroup requires HTML and I did not change...I should have
remembered..and many thanks for your comments...
I greatly appreciate all the help I can get...
Mary

OK. Anyway, you just follow the directions you got with the Carl's. No
milk, no yogurt, no nothing but water and flour.

B/

On 19 Oct 2003 at 11:21, drake wrote:

Thanks so much for responding....I truly am exasperated...the only
thing I can think of is I kneaded it in a bread mixer with a metal
hook....is it forbidden to use metal utensils on sourdough...?

That's an old husband's tale. Sourdough is acidic, and it will dissolve
(or etch) many metals. If you drop a tin, copper, brass, (or other non-
stainless steel metal) spoon into your sourdough, sooner or later, you'll
probably get a metallic off taste. And your spoon will be pitted.

However, using a tin spoon to stir your sourdough won't cause
problems. Most metal things in kitchens these days are stainless steel,
and they are safe for use with sourdough.

I prefer to use glass, ceramic, or plastic for long term storage of a
starter, but I always refresh my starter and mix the bread in a stainless
steel bowl. No problems.

Sourdough is pretty resilient stuff, so don't obsess over the little stuff
like metal spoons...

Mike
--
Mike Avery
ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM: MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Check out http://www.sourdoughhome.com for lots
of sourdough information *

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
It's one o'clock, and time for lunch.

Thanks very much...I need all the help I can get...
Mary
"Brian Mailman" wrote in message
...
drake wrote:

Sorry another newsgroup requires HTML and I did not change...I should have
remembered..and many thanks for your comments...
I greatly appreciate all the help I can get...
Mary

OK. Anyway, you just follow the directions you got with the Carl's. No
milk, no yogurt, no nothing but water and flour.

B/

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:33:11 -0400, "drake"
wrote:

Heat it and cover tightly and let stand for one day.

Howdy,

Might the "heat" be the problem...?

How warm did you go? Much above about 110F and the critters you are
trying to encourage will be killed.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Thanks so much for your input...I heated it to 95degrees according to my
thermometer....
Sincere thanks.
Mary
"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:33:11 -0400, "drake"
wrote:

Heat it and cover tightly and let stand for one day.

Howdy,

Might the "heat" be the problem...?

How warm did you go? Much above about 110F and the critters you are
trying to encourage will be killed.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."