On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:07:38 -0400, EJM wrote:

Bob, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are
serious about trying to get help making a hard crust on your baguettes,
rather than just filling up the ether by insulting the people who are
trying to aid you.

I have not insulted anyone trying to aid me. As I said, there is some
kind of psychopathology going on here. Perhaps it was caused by those
spammers who bombarded you all a while back, as described by one of
the posters. All I can do is extend my sympathy and ask you to control
your paranoia. I am not a troll like those other people.

As a measure of my sincerety to make bread, I made that "chewy
sourdough baguette" last night incorporating some of the things I
picked up here. Here are my observations:

1. I increased the recipe to 6 cups of flour. That made 3 baguettes
the size I wanted but I still had to let the dough go thru a final
rise to get the size loaf I wanted. That lessened the density which is
not what I wanted. Lesson: I am going to have to increase the flour
some more to lessen the time of the final rise.

2. I mixed 50% starter to 50% dough instead of the 1:2 ratio that KA
recommended. However, I did not get a more pronounced sourdough effect
because I also changed the way I made the starter. Lesson: Let the
starter go 3 days past the active stage and do not proof it. Also, I
am going to try rye flour additive next time, and that ought to
improve the sourdough effect.

3. I forgot to put yeast in the final dough but the starter had enough
activity that it was capable of rising the dough. I got a doubling in
the 2 hour rise just like when I used yeast. I kinda miss the yeast
aroma in the finished product, so I think I am going to put a small
amount (1/8 tsp) in the final dough. Lesson: It is possible to make an
authentic sourdough with no yeast in the dough - if you have an active
starter.

4. As a side experiment I mixed 1/4 cup of KA bread flour with 1/4 cup
filtered water in a mason jar and let it sit open in the kitchen
overnight. I did not need to put it in the oven with the light on
because the ambient temperature in our house at this time of the year
in Houston is around 80F anyway. The mixture has not started to
ferment in 18 hours, so I stirred it again. Lesson: The jury is still
out but maybe I can make a sourdough with no commercial yeast
whatsoever - from scratch.

5. I left the baked loaves in the oven for 10 minutes after turning
the oven off and opening the door for a minute to cool it off to 300F.
I also sprayed the loaves with water when I started baking them. Now I
have more crust than I really want. Lesson: Don't overdo crust
formation. Water spray alone is sufficient or perhaps leaving them in
the oven with no water spray will work.

It's true that we who recommend this book may be just parroting nobodies
(but then again we might not). But there is a simple way to test.
Instead of asking why you should bother believing that something is
worth taking up your valuable time to read, see if your public library
has a copy of the book(s) recommended here and read for yourself. Or if
you don't want to heft the whole book, you can go to amazon.com and read
an excerpt to see if perhaps it is indeed a book that you would find
useful:

As I said before I have read a lot of books and Internet recipes, so I
am reluctant to read any more because I am afraid I will just get more
confused. I do have

Classic Sourdoughs: A Home Baker's Handbook
by Ed World Sourdoughs from Antiquity Wood

on order from the library.

Rather than stick doggedly to the one KA recipe that works (or at least
almost works) for you, do use the internet to do some comparisons.

I am trying to achieve a consistent bread. I bake not for the hobby
but for the fact that I can't stand factory bread. Once I get this
recipe down pat, I will put it on a recipe card and move on.

I do have two things I want to achieve once I get this recipe to the
point where it satisfies me. The first is to make an authentic San
Francisco sourdough. In order to do that I have to find an authentic
starter in Houston. Any suggestions?

The second thing I want to do is make a genuine New Orleans French
Bread, like the kind Reising sold when I lived in NO in the late
1970s. I am tempted to try using a pastry flour with 8% gluten with
vegetable shortening to see if I can achieve the texture I want. Any
suggestions? (I started a separate thread for this subject).

Beyond that I spend my time on my main food hobby, which is Texas BBQ.
Bread making is fun up to a point, but it does not compare with
cooking authentic Texas BBQ. I also enjoy smoking salmon and making
gravlox, as well as deep frying anything that I can think of (I am on
a high unsaturated fatty acid regime so I need to eat one serving of
fish per day and one fried food per day). Once I get a New Orleans
bread recipe figured out, I will be making fried catfish and fried
oyster po boys.

http://ejmtph.crosswinds.net/recipes...html#resources

I took a close look at your boule recipe and decided that it is a more
elaborate version of the KA recipe I used. I am sure you achieve a
much better product than I do, but I am afraid I do not have the same
passion about bread making as you do. The only thing I will put that
much effort into cooking is Texas BBQ. I did bookmark your site as I
have some others mentioned here.

Thanks to everyone who assisted me with this excursion into
enlightened bread making. I will keep you posted on my successes and
failures as I work out the kinks in the above-mentioned projects. In
the meantime if you have anything constructive to add, please do so
because I will keep these NGs open for a while longer.

In article , Bob
wrote:

I am not a troll like those other people.

You act like a troll. Posting anonymously, inappropriately
cross-posting between rec.food.sourdough and alt.bread.recipes, and
having no functioning email address in your posts will put you in that
category. I would have sent you email privately with my comments but
that is not possible.

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at)
telus.net

In article ,
(Bob) wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:07:38 -0400, EJM wrote:

Bob, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are
serious about trying to get help making a hard crust on your baguettes,
rather than just filling up the ether by insulting the people who are
trying to aid you.

I have not insulted anyone trying to aid me. As I said, there is some
kind of psychopathology going on here. [snip]

Oh what nonsense. People are merely expressing their annoyance if they
feel their time is being wasted.

As a measure of my sincerety to make bread, I made that "chewy
sourdough baguette" last night incorporating some of the things I
picked up here. Here are my observations:

I believe that you mentioned you had only ever made one recipe - the KA
recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and Ciabatta with Sue Gray &
P.J. Hamel". It is not a sourdough recipe even if you call it one.

1. I increased the recipe to 6 cups of flour. That made 3 baguettes
the size I wanted but I still had to let the dough go thru a final
rise to get the size loaf I wanted. That lessened the density which is
not what I wanted. Lesson: I am going to have to increase the flour
some more to lessen the time of the final rise.

I trust that you scaled the whole recipe? One has to be careful with
scaling because the amount of yeast required for the approximate 4 cups
of flour in the KA recipe will be different from the amount of yeast
required for 6 cups of flour.

2. I mixed 50% starter to 50% dough instead of the 1:2 ratio that KA
recommended. However, I did not get a more pronounced sourdough effect
because I also changed the way I made the starter. Lesson: Let the
starter go 3 days past the active stage and do not proof it. Also, I
am going to try rye flour additive next time, and that ought to
improve the sourdough effect.

I can't understand why you would expect a more pronounced sourdough
effect. The KA recipe is not a sourdough recipe.

3. I forgot to put yeast in the final dough but the starter had enough
activity that it was capable of rising the dough. I got a doubling in
the 2 hour rise just like when I used yeast. I kinda miss the yeast
aroma in the finished product, so I think I am going to put a small
amount (1/8 tsp) in the final dough. Lesson: It is possible to make an
authentic sourdough with no yeast in the dough - if you have an active
starter.

Authentic sourdough does not use commercial yeast at all. There is a
wonderful entitled 'Primal Bread' in Jeffrey Steingarten's book, "The
Man Who Ate Everything". He describes his adventures in trying to create
authentic sourdough by capturing his own yeast. I realize that you are
loathe to read anything on the recommendation of only one person so
perhaps a few others will confirm that the Steingarten is worth your
time.

4. As a side experiment I mixed 1/4 cup of KA bread flour with 1/4 cup
filtered water in a mason jar and let it sit open in the kitchen
overnight. I did not need to put it in the oven with the light on
because the ambient temperature in our house at this time of the year
in Houston is around 80F anyway. The mixture has not started to
ferment in 18 hours, so I stirred it again. Lesson: The jury is still
out but maybe I can make a sourdough with no commercial yeast
whatsoever - from scratch.

Yes, of course it can be done but I gather for the inexperienced, it
isn't a simple operation. (Read the Steingarten.)

Here is a review of what sourdough is:

.... from www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm ...
:
: A sourdough starter is a living culture that needs food, water and
: oxygen to cultivate, ferment and multiply and takes a minimum of
: a couple of days or so to get started and months to become stabile.
: Before there was packaged yeast, all bread was leavened by a
: sourdough starter.
:................................................. ......
Take a look at the above URL to see how to make your own starter.

There is also a carefully outlined day to day chart on making a
sourdough starter in "The Village Baker" by Joe Ortiz. I have not tried
making it but I have made non sourdough recipes in Ortiz's book and they
turned out very well.

5. I left the baked loaves in the oven for 10 minutes after turning
the oven off and opening the door for a minute to cool it off to 300F.
I also sprayed the loaves with water when I started baking them. Now I
have more crust than I really want. Lesson: Don't overdo crust
formation. Water spray alone is sufficient or perhaps leaving them in
the oven with no water spray will work.

Certainly, try both to see which you prefer. It's my suspicion that
spraying alone will do the trick.

It's true that we who recommend this book may be just parroting nobodies
(but then again we might not). But there is a simple way to test.
Instead of asking why you should bother believing that something is
worth taking up your valuable time to read, see if your public library
has a copy of the book(s) recommended here and read for yourself. Or if
you don't want to heft the whole book, you can go to amazon.com and read
an excerpt to see if perhaps it is indeed a book that you would find
useful:

As I said before I have read a lot of books and Internet recipes, so I
am reluctant to read any more because I am afraid I will just get more
confused. I do have

I really can't see how "On Food and Cooking" would make you more
confused. It is about the science of cooking - as in "what exactly
happens when flour and water are mixed in order to form gluten strands?
how does higher or lower temperature affect this development? what does
the introduction of fats do? etc. etc." It may well help you to
understand all the other books and internet documents you have read so
far. Of course, baking the bread will help you to understand too.

Classic Sourdoughs: A Home Baker's Handbook
by Ed World Sourdoughs from Antiquity Wood

on order from the library.

Rather than stick doggedly to the one KA recipe that works (or at least
almost works) for you, do use the internet to do some comparisons.

I am trying to achieve a consistent bread. I bake not for the hobby
but for the fact that I can't stand factory bread. Once I get this
recipe down pat, I will put it on a recipe card and move on.

I bake for exactly the same reason that you do. We do not like factory
bread either.

I do have two things I want to achieve once I get this recipe to the
point where it satisfies me. The first is to make an authentic San
Francisco sourdough. In order to do that I have to find an authentic
starter in Houston. Any suggestions?

I gather that the thing about sourdoughs is that they are dependant on
the air. A Houston sourdough (even if it is made exactly the way that a
SanFrancisco sourdough is made) will be slightly different from the
SanFrancisco starter. But I really know very little more about sourdough
and will leave this question up to the folks in r.f.s.

The second thing I want to do is make a genuine New Orleans French
Bread, [snip] (I started a separate thread for this subject).

[snip]
http://ejmtph.crosswinds.net/recipes...html#resources

I took a close look at your boule recipe and decided that it is a more
elaborate version of the KA recipe I used. I am sure you achieve a
much better product than I do, but I am afraid I do not have the same
passion about bread making as you do. The only thing I will put that
much effort into cooking is Texas BBQ. [snip]

It all depends on what you really want, Bob. If you think that the
recipe I make would achieve a better product than your KA recipe then
try to encorporate what you have learned from it into the KA recipe or
try the boule recipe and make it into baguettes. Either make the effort
to bake the bread you are wanting to eat with your Texas bbq or stop
wondering why you aren't achieving it.




--
ejmorris aka llizard

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

If you are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "idirct"

EJM wrote:
air

NO AIR!

David
Can someone set up a bidaily (izzat a word?) "no air" FAQ please?

David

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:06:43 -0400, EJM wrote:

I have not insulted anyone trying to aid me. As I said, there is some
kind of psychopathology going on here.

Oh what nonsense.

See what I mean - denial of reality is a form of psychopathology. :-)

[snip]

So is excessive snipping. I believe it is called the "Lorena Bobbitt
Syndrome".

People are merely expressing their annoyance if they
feel their time is being wasted.

If people feel their time is being wasted, then why do they
participate in the first place? Don't they know how to use the DEL
key?

[For those who are not schooled in the proper use of the DEL key, send
a SASE for instructions.]

I believe that you mentioned you had only ever made one recipe - the KA
recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and Ciabatta with Sue Gray &
P.J. Hamel". It is not a sourdough recipe even if you call it one.

Then I am totally confused. I thought that any bread recipe that used
a poolish was classified as a sourdough.

I trust that you scaled the whole recipe? One has to be careful with
scaling because the amount of yeast required for the approximate 4 cups
of flour in the KA recipe will be different from the amount of yeast
required for 6 cups of flour.

I scaled the original recipe exactly.

I can't understand why you would expect a more pronounced sourdough
effect. The KA recipe is not a sourdough recipe.

In the past I make a poolish in much the same manner as that recipe.
In those instances the recipe was labeled "sourdough". I assumed that
if I did essentially the same thing, namely employed a poolish, then I
was making a sourdough.

Authentic sourdough does not use commercial yeast at all.

I realize that there is authentic sourdough and pretend sourdough.
This is all part of the confusion caused by sloppy writing in books
and on the Internet.

maybe I can make a sourdough with no commercial yeast
whatsoever - from scratch.

Yes, of course it can be done but I gather for the inexperienced, it
isn't a simple operation. (Read the Steingarten.)

I read the Samartha and he makes it look rather straightforward. He
even gives you approximate fluid volumes in case you can't weigh the
ingredients, which is rather decent of him.

Now I am using rye flour to get a starter going on its own, albeit I
am not using whole grain rye like he specifies. I am using "medium
rye". I should know if it is going to ferment sometime later today.

Here is a review of what sourdough is:

... from www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm ...

I will have a look.

There is also a carefully outlined day to day chart on making a
sourdough starter in "The Village Baker" by Joe Ortiz. I have not tried
making it but I have made non sourdough recipes in Ortiz's book and they
turned out very well.

Samartha's recipe is quite detailed, complete with progress photos.

Water spray alone is sufficient or perhaps leaving them in
the oven with no water spray will work.

Certainly, try both to see which you prefer. It's my suspicion that
spraying alone will do the trick.

That's what I used in the past. I even bought a dedicated spray bottle
from the dollar store for this one application.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:06:43 -0400, EJM wrote:

I believe that you mentioned you had only ever made one recipe - the KA
recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and Ciabatta with Sue Gray &
P.J. Hamel". It is not a sourdough recipe even if you call it one.

Just to show you how writers confuse things here is an excerpt from an
Internet article someone recommended earlier:

+++++
http://www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm

HOW TO MAKE A SOURDOUGH STARTER: Although rewarding, working with a
starter requires patience and practice. Sometimes starters fail or
don't produce the type of bread that is desired from a variety of
reasons. So how does one make a starter?

A sponge starter is started by mixing the yeast, flour and water in a
bowl, covering with plastic wrap and set in warm place to ferment for
less than an hour or more. When it ferments (gets bubbly and smells
sour and yeasty), it can be used.
+++++

If you read that carefully you will see that it says that a sourdough
starter has yeast in its recipe. There is no other way to read it.

I rest my case.

in article , Bob at
wrote on 14/10/03 9:06 am:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:06:43 -0400, EJM wrote:

I believe that you mentioned you had only ever made one recipe - the KA
recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and Ciabatta with Sue Gray &
P.J. Hamel". It is not a sourdough recipe even if you call it one.

Just to show you how writers confuse things here is an excerpt from an
Internet article someone recommended earlier:

+++++
http://www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm

HOW TO MAKE A SOURDOUGH STARTER: Although rewarding, working with a
starter requires patience and practice. Sometimes starters fail or
don't produce the type of bread that is desired from a variety of
reasons. So how does one make a starter?

A sponge starter is started by mixing the yeast, flour and water in a
bowl, covering with plastic wrap and set in warm place to ferment for
less than an hour or more. When it ferments (gets bubbly and smells
sour and yeasty), it can be used.
+++++

If you read that carefully you will see that it says that a sourdough
starter has yeast in its recipe. There is no other way to read it.

I rest my case.


Please, less of this In this group sourdough starters do not use commercial
yeasts and any old "old dough" is not a sourdough starter. If you want to
make yeasted old doughs use a book that deals with them . No one is saying
that they can't make good breads, just that they will not be sourdough
breads. People here are glad to respond to sourdough questions, so if yours
are that continue, if they are not , desist please. Ellen

CROSSPOSTED: Please do not post a crossposted reply. (See my coded=20
email address below).

Several current threads at a.b.r. and r.f.s. are crossposted. Although =
there=20
is no remedy for belligerent crossposters, some crossposting is due =
simply to=20
persons who do not notice and edit the "Newsgroups" line when replying.

It makes sense to not reply at all to crossposted messages, or any
messages where Internet etiquette is violated, like failure to provide =
some
way to reply via email. Otherwise good usenet practice is to edit the
address line to confine your reply to the newsgroup of your interest, =
and
to include a crosspost alert in your post.

--=20
Dick Adams
rec.food.sourdough
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

In article ,
(Bob) wrote:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:06:43 -0400, EJM wrote:

I believe that you mentioned you had only ever made one recipe - the KA
recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and Ciabatta with Sue Gray &
P.J. Hamel". It is not a sourdough recipe even if you call it one.

Just to show you how writers confuse things here is an excerpt from an
Internet article someone recommended earlier:

+++++
http://www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm

HOW TO MAKE A SOURDOUGH STARTER: Although rewarding, working with a
starter requires patience and practice. Sometimes starters fail or
don't produce the type of bread that is desired from a variety of
reasons. So how does one make a starter?

A sponge starter is started by mixing the yeast, flour and water in a
bowl, covering with plastic wrap and set in warm place to ferment for
less than an hour or more. When it ferments (gets bubbly and smells
sour and yeasty), it can be used.
+++++

If you read that carefully you will see that it says that a sourdough
starter has yeast in its recipe. There is no other way to read it.

I rest my case.


You are resting prematurely. Does the starter dough that you are using
for your KA baguettes smell "sour and yeasty"? In my opinion, it
shouldn't after such a short time of fermentation. It should smell nutty
and maybe have a hint of a yeast smell.

Also, if you read carefully just a little further on that page, you will
see that there is a definition of a *sourdough* starter - which does not
call for commercial yeast.

.................................................. .....
: A sourdough starter is a living culture that needs food, water and
: oxygen to cultivate, ferment and multiply and takes a minimum of a
: couple of days or so to get started and months to become stabile.
: Before there was packaged yeast, all bread was leavened by a
: sourdough starter. Although using a sourdough starter in baking
: is more unpredictable than using packaged yeast, the vibrant and
: sour flavor as well as unique texture that results, just can't
: be made in any other way. It's because you are cultivating and
: fermenting wild yeast (often Candida milleri) and bacteria
: (Lactobacillus) that feed on the sugars from the hydrated flour's
: starches and live and multiply in the batter. A portion is used
: to leaven and flavor bread and other recipes.
:
:..above excerpt from www.baking911.com/bread_starters101howto.htm ....

I would think that the several voices in r.f.s. and a.b.r. repeatedly
telling you that sourdough does not use in fact use commercial yeast and
that the KA baguette recipe you are using is NOT sourdough should be
enough to convince you that perhaps you should rethink your position.
Could it be that you are the one wearing the blinkers?

Take a good look at the KA recipe "Breads From The Hearth: Baguettes and
Ciabatta with Sue Gray & P.J. Hamel" you have cited, Bob. Where does it
say anything about sourdough?

The KA site does have sourdough recipes. One is for making 'Grape
Sourdough Starter'. It begins:
......................................
: If you have ever had a yen to create a sourdough starter of
: your own, Fall is the time of year to do it. There is a lot
: of wild yeast flying about in the late summer and early fall
:
:...above excerpt from www.kingarthurflour.com ..................

The whole 'Grape Sourdough Starter' recipe is in the school section of
the KA site:

http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibi...42870273493460

The KA site also has recipes for "French Sourdough Bread", "Ultimate
Sourdough Baguettes" calling for 'sourdough starters' rather than
'sponge starters'.



--
ejmorris aka llizard

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

If you are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "idirct"

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:56:57 -0400, EJM wrote:

The KA site does have sourdough recipes. One is for making 'Grape
Sourdough Starter'. It begins:
.....................................
: If you have ever had a yen to create a sourdough starter of
: your own, Fall is the time of year to do it. There is a lot
: of wild yeast flying about in the late summer and early fall
:
:...above excerpt from www.kingarthurflour.com ..................

The whole 'Grape Sourdough Starter' recipe is in the school section of
the KA site:

Howdy,

Please don't assume that KA posts the gospel...

Most understand that the bugs that (ultimately) form the culture are
in the flour rather than in the air.

Also, the grapes are best eaten while waiting for the starter (of
flour and water only) to ferment g.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:09:03 -0400, Kenneth
wrote:

Most understand that the bugs that (ultimately) form the culture
^
researchers


'sorry,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 15 Oct 2003 18:28:57 GMT, pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote:

I would like to know how you get around the humidity problem when you
weigh flour.

Bob - you're a troll, you're just bringing up point after point that is
designed to start schismatic argument.

I fail to see how mentioning the humidity problem in weighing flour
should set anyone off. After all, it was you who brought up the bit
about weighing everything.

Posting on this forum is like walking into a snake pit.

You're killfiled - life is too short to bother with you.

Jeez, the psychopathology around here is worse than I thought.
Fortunately it is manifest in only a few individuals.

You don't have a case if you use yeast to make a starter. I don't care =
who the so-called "authority" is. You're really getting very tiresome.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:06:43 -0400, EJM wrote:

If you read that carefully you will see that it says that a sourdough
starter has yeast in its recipe. There is no other way to read it.
=20
I rest my case.
=20

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:30:02 GMT, "Pawnee"
wrote:

You don't have a case if you use yeast to make a starter. I don't care
who the so-called "authority" is.

LOL

No one really cares what you have to say, troll.

You're really getting very tiresome.

Then learn how to use the DEL key, moron.

"Our country's a place of limitless hopes and
possibilities, and nowhere is that spirit more
alive than in the great nation of Texas."


--GW Bush, U.S. President from Texas

NOT CROSSPOSTED

"Pawnee" crossposted message=20
...

You don't have a case if you use yeast to make a starter.=20
I don't care who the so-called "authority" is.=20
You're really getting very tiresome.

"Pawnee", consider changing your designation to
"Dances with Crossposters".

Maybe at a.b.r. they make sourdough with bakers'
yeast. That is OK. We don't care what they do.

There is some kind of yeast in sourdough cultures.
It is believed, even at r.f.s., that sourdough yeasts=20
will eventually replace bakers' yeast once bacteria
commence acidifying the culture, inasmuch as=20
bakers' yeast has a hard time surviving in an acidic
environment.

Just forget about the Texan. He is ineducable.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com