I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...

Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

I like making breads (regular not sourdoughs. I am making starter now
for my first sourdough bread) but most of the time they are quite
heavy and I was wondering if leaving them to rise longer would make it
lighter.

If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
white yeast breads. I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.

Thanks
Julie
Northern Ireland...

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:33:03 -0700, Julie wrote:

................ could I please get tips for making lighter
white yeast breads. I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.

If you're using water...
Try increasing the water amount. You might start with 70% water to
flour. If you find this works you can work your way up to 100% or more
and you should have a very light loaf.

Letting the bread rise longer doesn't make the bread lighter exactly
but it makes the loaf bigger ! Don't let it go too long!!!

"Julie" wrote in message =
om...

Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

Definitely!

I think that the volume of the finished loaf should be about five=20
times the volume of the unrisen dough. Sometimes the rising
dough poops out before it has risen very much, and avoiding
that occurrence is pretty much the name of the game when it
comes to light loaves, in the sense of not being dense.

I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be light or heavy....

I like light sourdough bread, but most people, I think, feel that
sourdough should be a bit dense. Sourdough rises more slowly
than yeasted dough, and there are more things that can go wrong
which would limit the amount of rise which can be obtained.

It is easier to get a good rise with conventionally yeasted dough
than with sourdough. That may be the reason that most people
feel that sourdough should be a bit dense. If you follow the usual
advice for sourdough loaves, they will probably be pretty dense.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article , Julie
wrote:

I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...

Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

Yes.

You may want to look at

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoigetthatloftyloaf.html

and

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisme...lyactivat.html

I like making breads (regular not sourdoughs. I am making starter now
for my first sourdough bread

Ensure you have a stable active starter for a lighter loaf. Making your
starter can have its difficulties...

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/shouldiu...lishedsta.html

If you do want to make your starter here are some tips...

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howcanis...terfromsc.html


If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
white yeast breads.

More yeast, let rise longer.

I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.

A matter of personal taste, generally people like a lighter loaf,
achieved with an active starter and allowing to rise sufficiently.

Cheers,

Darrell

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at)
telus.net

"Julie" wrote in message
om...
I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...

Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

Yes at least to a point.....if you wait too long quite the opposite will
happen. During the rise the dough will spring back when poked gently with a
finger....when it dimples slightly or loses that spring its ready for the
bake.

If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
white yeast breads. I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.
Thanks
Julie
Northern Ireland...

A bread flour or additional gluten in the flour and sufficient kneading
(gluten development) seems to help with a greater loft. Using a pan instead
of a freeform loaf will assist in additional loft as well. Soggy

Rod & BJ wrote:

Yes at least to a point.....if you wait too long quite the opposite will
happen. During the rise the dough will spring back when poked gently with a
finger....when it dimples slightly or loses that spring its ready for the
bake.

Have you tried at this point to punch it down and maybe discovered that
the dough again becomes tight again?

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

In message lid...
"Darrell Greenwood" recommended=20

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoige...tyloaf.html=20

It is perhaps significant that that particular piece was submitted
by a professional baker (one who bakes as a vocation). He uses
a number of words and concepts which are possibly not familiar=20
to a novice, or, to say the least, are wanting for further elaboration,
for instance:

correct consistency=20
percent hydration
fermentation=20
kneading
dividing and rounding
prefermentation stages
sponge=20
leaven=20
active starter.
shaping
finished loaf=20
plastic doughs
elastic and extensible doughs
well hydrated
well kneaded=20
pre-shape
pre-stretch=20
dough structure
gluten tension=20
underproofing=20
overproofing
perfect proofing

Personally, I am most joyfully titillated by the concept of perfect=20
proofing.=20

When it comes to=20

weigh rather than volume-measure ingredients

I think that is an arbitrary stringency. But for one who does have
a scale or balance, calibrating the measuring cup in terms of=20
ounces or grams of flour makes good sense.

Regards to=20

very sharp knife

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/razorsharpknives.html

is very good. But, if you are short on time, a razor blade will
do the job. =20

With regard to the possibility that old Julie will get all of the=20
information she needs by asking several questions, we can only
hope.

Here is a place where there are not so many words from=20
Professional Baking 101:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di.../panbread.html

and a simple way of making loaves which have a slightly artisanal
appearance:

http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves

for what its worth.

--=20
Dick Adams
firstname dot lastnameat bigfoot dot com

"Samartha Deva"
Have you tried at this point to punch it down and maybe discovered that
the dough again becomes tight again?

Samartha

Often as not it would depending on number of rises already taken but here
its not particularly germane since the express purpose is additional loft or
maximum rise with a assumption that the dough has already been formed and is
oven ready. To my understanding multiple or extended rises would be for
flavor enhancement and/or timing issues rather than additional gluten
development...do you think otherwise?

Do you suggest something other than the "dimpled finger depression" for the
optimum rise to bake timing?

My normal or average white bread has a 8-12 hr sponge stage, then I add
salt, maybe shortening, additional flour, knead, shape and rise 4-5 hours
(all times depending on room temps). In previous experiments any extended
proofing may have changed flavors but did not result in additional loft and
usually resulted in lower, flatter loaves(presumed degraded gluten)....most
of my bread is freeform loaves or rolls. Until I began using ConAgra Harvest
bread flour(Costco 50lb bags) I just used a all purpose flour with
occasionally added gluten(especially with longer proofs)...I do think the
texture and loft has improved with the ConAgra flour. Soggy

"Rod & BJ" wrote in message =
...

... To my understanding multiple or extended rises would be for
flavor enhancement and/or timing issues rather than additional gluten
development...do you think otherwise? ...

I think that. At least for sourdough.

Do you suggest something other than the "dimpled finger depression"=20
for the optimum rise to bake timing?

Well, I have experienced circumstances where the dough loaves were=20
still rising at the time then they grew too big for the container =
("proofing
box" they were rising in, maybe 6 or 7 fold volume increase (relative to
the volume of the original unrisen dough). Unfortunately, I have not=20
found out how to duplicate these circumstances at will.

In previous experiments any extended proofing may have changed=20
flavors but did not result in additional loft and usually resulted in =
lower,=20
latter loaves (presumed degraded gluten)....

The truism is that multiple rises punctuated with punchdowns=20
yield an improved result. That may work better for conventionally=20
yeasted bread. There fermentation is very rapid, compared to=20
sourdough fermentation. Perhaps so rapid that nutrients are=20
locally depleted (in the regions near yeast cells) faster than=20
they can restored by diffusion. So a brief rekneading, described=20
as a "punchdown" may serve to redistribute the cells and their=20
nutrients, as is popularly thought.

Another thing -- with conventionally yeasted dough, it is very=20
unlikely that the number of yeast organisms increases during=20
fermentation -- as one of the sourdough sages has said, it just=20
takes one cough per cell to effect the rise. With sourdough,=20
through the build stages, there is certainly an increase, and,=20
with a long and/or warm rise (fermentation) of the final dough=20
loaf, it seems quite likely that the number of organisms=20
increases even in the dough stage.

So, it seems to me that the fermentation process with sourdough=20
is different, and certainly more leisurely. So the rules for=20
conventionally yeasted dough do not necessarily apply.

The rise endpoint which strikes me as the most usual is when the=20
dough becomes porous so that gas is not held. That would most=20
likely be due to gluten degradation. So a major feature of the=20
drill would be to avoid that. Being gentle with the dough is one=20
possibility.

Another thing to be stressed is that since sourdough fermentation=20
is quite slow compared with the usual yeasted dough, self-
kneading is a real possibility. If one believes that, and what is=20
said above, it makes sense to minimize mechanical abuse to the=20
dough so far as reasonable.

To me, it seems quite certain that the sourdough flavors are=20
developed during the rise, notwithstanding that certain flavors=20
are developed in the crust incident to the reactions which cause=20
browning. Therefore it must be allowed that a reformation=20
(reshaping) of the loaves sometime during the rise may be needed=20
sometimes to allow the fermentation to complete (for optimum=20
flavor) without the doughloaf bloating excessively.

It seems likely to me, and it has been said by some, that the=20
reshaping, if done right, and at the right point in the rising of=20
the doughloaf, may coalesce the forming gas (carbon dioxide)=20
bubbles in a manner which will lead to the desirable holey=20
structure in the baked loaf. (A major objective in my SD quest=20
is to obtain the holey bread by doughloaf manipulation rather than=20
the extensive oven technology and trickery that is usually=20
prescribed.)

Of course the questions were for Samartha, who does rye bread=20
mostly, which is altogether different than the white SD bread I=20
try to make. So let's see what he has to say.

---
DickA

Rod & BJ wrote:

"Samartha Deva"
Have you tried at this point to punch it down and maybe discovered that
the dough again becomes tight again?

Samartha

Often as not it would depending on number of rises already taken but here
its not particularly germane since the express purpose is additional loft or
maximum rise with a assumption that the dough has already been formed and is
oven ready.

AFAICS, this (number of rises done and loaf being oven ready) has not
been brought up in this thread - maybe in the URL's given. This would be
the last step before baking. I considered the original question to be
more general.

To my understanding multiple or extended rises would be for
flavor enhancement and/or timing issues rather than additional gluten
development...do you think otherwise?

My observation is that with a "punch down" i. e. press and stretch after
a certain time of fermenting several things besides taste issues are
accomplished. Two are improvement (tightening) of the dough and increase
of fermentation vigor.

I was not so much concerned about the "rise time" as you bring up rather
than the "punch down" - I don't know if the prof's would call this dough
development.

So, well tempered "stronger" dough in connection with appropriate
hydration and increased fermentation activity sure would contribute to
loft.

Do you suggest something other than the "dimpled finger depression" for the
optimum rise to bake timing?

I find this inconclusive and that's why I brought it up. If it works for
you - great. For me, the dough can rip open structurally due to fast
rise and when punching it down, it comes right back strong. All within
your 4-5 hour time frame. Would you dimple with the finger before the
punch down, it would be baking time. Would you do it after the punch
down, it would not be baking time. If you have a wet dough, you can't
dimple because the dough sticks to your finger - then what? Don't have a
method to determine baking time and can't bake?

Can I suggest something else? Well, the issue with Julie getting dense
loafs may not be solved with the finger dimple test. So, getting to know
your starter and dough by experimenting and changing things could lead
to more improvement than blindly doing the dimple test and hoping it
works.

It seems that people like Julie want an instant solution with sourdough
- give me the recipe or tell me how it works so I get the result I want.
Then, when one asks for more details what is happening, what caused the
issue, they drop the ball or do the yeast thing.

You did not answer the question if you get a denser dough with a
punchdown after the dimple test shows it's baking time.

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

Samartha Deva wrote:

...I find this inconclusive and that's why I brought it up....

... If you have a wet dough, you can't
dimple because the dough sticks to your finger - then what? Don't have a
method to determine baking time and can't bake?...

Someone, Perhaps Janet Bostwick, suggested lightly pressing the palm of your hand
or the flat of your fingers against the dough to determine the state of the rise.
The results are not as easy to describe as poking the dough with a finger and
seeing if the dimple fills in, but with practice you get more information about
the dough. Flour the dough or the fingers if the dough is sticky.

If you have long experience with a certain recipe, after a while you can tap the
pan or basket and see how the vibration propagates through the dough to check the
state of the dough.

Speaking here of plain white bread. I only attempt rye when I am taunted into it
by Ticker. That is usually when she feels my ego needs to be taken down a notch
or two.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Samartha Deva wrote in message

It seems that people like Julie want an instant solution with sourdough
- give me the recipe or tell me how it works so I get the result I want.
Then, when one asks for more details what is happening, what caused the
issue, they drop the ball or do the yeast thing.

You did not answer the question if you get a denser dough with a
punchdown after the dimple test shows it's baking time.

Samartha
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Samartha


I don't know how you came to the conclusion that by asking questions
"People like Julie "
want an instant solution. I haven't even gotten a starter that is fit
to use yet. I am only asking
questions as they come to my head so that when I am READY to make my
FIRST LOAF
EVER of sourdough bread I will have a better understanding of how it
all goes together. I
fully understand the concept of fiddle a bit to find what works for
the individual person and
the starter they have chosen to use.

I haven't yet had the chance to "DROP the BALL" or "DO the YEAST
THING". I took
quite a lot of time before I attempted a starter and until my starter
becomes satisfactory to
me I am still taking a lot of time reading and trying to understand
in simple terms ( I am
trying to also get my kids interested and they don't understand
overblown explanations I
have seen on a few websites) what is going on in the making of
sourdough bread.

I am perfectly happy take time doing things right and wasting
materials when I don't feel things are going as well as they should
be. I can take time waiting for a loaf to proof. And am willing to ask
questions along the way.

Asking questions is not taking the easy way out....that is how people
have always
LEARNED....by asking people who KNOW BETTER than themselves...

So while I am honestly not offended...I suggest you take some time to
think before making generalised and sweeping comments about people
whom you know nothing about "People Like Julie " do not appreciate it
very much.



Thanks

Cheers to you.

Julie

Julie wrote:
stuff

I think Samartha's just a bit fed up with the questions new people tend
to ask.

David

Feuer wrote

I think Samartha's just a bit fed up with the questions new people tend
to ask.

David


I can understand if this is the case. However this is (I am guessing)
a place where new people can come to ask questions from people who are
more experienced.

If Samartha is a bit fed up with questions from new people perhaps he
should refrain from answering those he finds particularly inane and
leave them to those who don't mind new people who appreciate those on
this forum who are worth learning from.

I am not new to baking in general ....but I am new to sourdough
making. And I haven't many places to learn it from. I can read all
the FAQ's and how to website I want....but it still does not compare
with advice from ACTUAL people who may have found alternate ways to do
things.

And as a side note: My original question was basically a yes or no
with only a simple explaination or link to relevant info needed.

Cheers
Julie

Hey Julie,

You are certainly not the first person to earnestly seek information,
just to be ridiculed (intentionally or not) by other contributors, or
to have one's questions questioned in a way that seems disdainful.
Certainly a shame you were given reason to make the response you did.

While there are likely to be a complex range of reasons why people do
such things in a forum designed for information sharing, I imagine one
is not viewing these exchanges as an opportunity to be helpful to
others (and failing to empathetically understand where those others
are coming from). Instead, it seems it is sometimes taken as an
opportunity to display one's supposed
knowledge/mastery/discernment/taste, and/or to mess with people (out
of fun or disdain).

I am not sure what Samartha's up to, but FYI, his frequent
contributions IMO offer a mix of wonderfully helpful and insightful
suggestions, and self-righteous judgments.

As for the idea of being fed up with newbie questions, perhaps
starting a new ng would be appropriate, perhaps:

rec.food.sourdough.advanced
rec.food.sourdough.wiseonesonly
rec.food.sourdough.holierthanthou

or for the generally curmudgeonly:

rec.food.sourdough.n'erdowell