"Ignoramus3739" wrote in message =
...

.. tinyurl.com is your friend ...

Why do I need it?? -- I know how to prevent linebreaks from=20
creeping into links...

(I just need to remember that the Internet does not always know=20
how to interpret the underline character (%5F).)

"Ignoramus3739" =20
wrote in message ...

... if you think that your lame insults impress me, you need some=20
serious re-education ...

Yes, I should give up on those attempts. Nobody with self-esteem=20
so low as to write his initial in lower case could be susceptible to=20
insults. And I am much to old to be reeducated even one more time,
or even partly.

---
DickA

Ignoramus3739 wrote:
....

Carl West offered to email it to me.

If you take a closer look, he wrote it conditionally: "If you can't... I
can...."

My opinion on this: I know a sucker, when I see none.

Of general interest, Samartha has posted a curve showing
how microorganisms increase their numbers. It is at
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9

Good graph. I was hoping that warming the culture will have effect of
reducing the "acceleration" time. It is well known that cold
temperature retards biological processes in general (as well as most
cemical processes).

Well, it does but you seem to ask for an exact prescription of how to do
it, like warming it up by putting x amount of starter with y temperature
into z quarts of water with a temperature. I don't think anyone here is
willing to give you that and this is something you have to figure out
yourself. Start with the microwave for a couple of seconds, that's
probably the quickest way to get it warm and you don't need to measure
the water and temperature.

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:33:01 -0600, Samartha Deva
wrote:
Steve W wrote:

If all three iterations are the same then what is the point? Just more
volume?

A _lot_! (points), sometimes dramatic:

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/

We would be discussing 3 Stage sourdough starter growing again and the
benefits thereof.

It's not just volume i. e. germ counts, it's also quality in sense of
vitality and composition - and you get to play with a lot more variables
when you have 3 stages instead of one;-)

It looks like the starters have some kind of "memory" - once they got
lazy, they keep it for a while and on the other side of the spectrum,
with "exercising" it is possible promote vitality for the final journey.

Yes, I understand some of the reasoning behind multi-stage development.
What I don't understand is Dicks's diagram showing the same curve
reproduced 3 times. If there is any change in "vitality" as you suggest
the three curves should reflect that.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net

"Steve W" wrote in message=20
...

... I understand some of the reasoning behind multi-stage development.
What I don't understand is Dicks's diagram showing the same curve
reproduced 3 times. If there is any change in "vitality" as you =
suggest
the three curves should reflect that.

The point is that, for progressive refreshments, it is most efficient to =

maintain exponential-phase growth, and, in each refreshment, to let the=20
fermentation proceed almost to transition phase. Further, and one
might expect hesitation starting the next refreshment.

When it comes to dough, then fermentation can go further, maybe should,
for most flavor.

I suppose I could make some graphic demonstrations of how to screw
up progressive refreshments by using transition-phase or death-phase=20
inoculants, for instance. But, as they say at college, let's leave that =
as=20
an exercise.

The diagram is an idealization. In practice, you can only guess where
your stuff is on the curve. We could play "101 ways to know when your
culture is ripe". Similarly for when dough is ready to bake. Don't ask =
me.
I don't have all the answers!

--
DickA

_____________
References:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3Dn9Cdb.156257$0v4.11696310@bgtnsc04=
-news.ops.worldnet.att.net

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#GC

At 07:16 PM 9/29/2003, you wrote:

Yes, I understand some of the reasoning behind multi-stage development.
What I don't understand is Dicks's diagram showing the same curve
reproduced 3 times.

Ok - I see your demand for more perfection in this area.

I also find that 3-level staggered curve should show some hesitation at the=
=20
transition points and I wrote a very long reply to Dick yesterday because=20
of that, and why he always thinks I am only doing rye and he does not=20
realize that I made 5 x 1 1/2 lb white loafs with Carls last week because I=
=20
needed bread crumbs for my Zwetschgenkn=F6del and I always have a stash of=
=20
white bread in the freezer and when it gets used up, I bake white bread. I=
=20
was trying really hard, but then the program crashed and all was gone.

I will not write it again and Dick said at the end, it is only an=20
indication of something, and it's fine with me. Something is always better=
=20
than nothing although under closer consideration, nothing is still=20
something or it would not exist. It's never right. I really understand you=
=20
there.

For me, there are hesitations and I don't need a curve for that. The one I=
=20
made is perfect for me. Whenever I forget something, I can look at it=20
again. I think that Dick's curves would only confuse me more, if I would=20
look too often.

If there is any change in "vitality" as you suggest
the three curves should reflect that.

Absolutely - send an email do Dick, maybe your computer does not crash like=
=20
mine or - if you have Photoshop or any other graphics program, you can take=
=20
the curve and stretch or crunch it to your hearts desire. Or, maybe put a=20
scale on or, even better, make curves with and without vitality and then=20
everyone could see if you did it right. And, if they find it wrong, they=20
could make their own curves too.

This way, everyone would be curve happy, just like me with mine.

Samartha

"Samartha" wrote in message
news:mailman.1064900797.22165.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
....
needed bread crumbs for my Zwetschgenknödel and I always have a stash of
[Ummmm...I haven't had a Zwetschgenknödel for ... 50 years... Zonds! I
didn't even recall it until you'd mentioned it. I'm gonna hafta make my way
up your way and personally check on the quality of your product...(:-o)!]

Later all,
Dusty
....

Dusty wrote:

"Samartha" wrote in message
news:mailman.1064900797.22165.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
...
needed bread crumbs for my Zwetschgenknödel and I always have a stash of
[Ummmm...I haven't had a Zwetschgenknödel for ... 50 years... Zonds! I
didn't even recall it until you'd mentioned it. I'm gonna hafta make my way
up your way and personally check on the quality of your product...(:-o)!]

Well, it's bloody OT - almost no SD there at all but one observation
came up which is similar to SD.

It got softer with time but -ok back up: The dough is flour, smashed
boiled potatoes and 1 egg, salt, maybe some milk. Zwetschge (Italian
plum) goes into the middle of a round sphere (2 1/2") of dough formed
and cooked in boiling salt water until they start rolling. Most recipes
take the plum stone (?) out and put a sugar cube in but the purpose of
the stones is to be able to count how many got eaten to determine the
winner and the sugar cube defeats that purpose.

So, initially dough could be formed into balls easily but since is was
too early to cook, it stood around for a couple of hours and then - the
dough got too soft to be handled decently, it was a big mess and I don't
have a clue why this got softer. There was no yeast nor SD or other
fermentation happening in that time frame but it was almost flowing. I
put a lot of flour in to contain the mess and make it somewhat
shapeable. First attempt to recreate this childhood memory.

The organic bred crumbs from Carl's SD white bread come in as being
roasted in butter with sugar slowly so the sugar melts and builds small
caramelized hard clumps with the crumbs. Everything gets nicely brown.
The cooked Knödels are put into a baking sheet or pyrex (? = heat
resistant glass) pan with high rim, are filled in, covered with crumbs
about 1/2" over Knödel and baked over again in the oven.

Pretty decadent with sugar.

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

"Dick Adams" (A.K.A. Ben A. Newbie Never) wrote in message
...


Yes, I should give up on those attempts. Nobody with self-esteem
so low as to write his initial in lower case could be susceptible to
insults. And I am much to old to be reeducated even one more time,
or even partly.

I think we all agree that you should indeed give up on the insults.

You also might remember that you are much "TOO" old, not much "to" old. "To"
is a preposition designating a destination not an amount.

Please excuse the "off-topic" post, just couldn't resist.

AB