I have no doubt that many of you have, but in the nine years that I
have been working with sourdough, I have always built my bread from a
refreshed starter followed by making a sponge- usually overnight, and
then making the dough. A few weeks ago I was inspired by the
breadtopia.com recipe for the no-(you-know -what) sourdough and
decided to experiment with a straight dough method. It's been a
revelation. These breads were created by mixing the salt with the
flour and 2 oz of one-week-old starter with the water. I combined the
flour and starter/water in a mixing bowl and blended for less than 1
minute with a spatula then covered the mixture and placed on the
counter for 18 +/- hours. No kneading, no stretch and fold, nothing
but sitting. The ciabatta-style bread was about 80% hydration and the
sandwich bread was 65%. The second raise on the ciabatta was 45
minutes and on the sandwich bread was 1.5 hours. Three things that I
really like about this technique: the starter doesn't have to be very
fresh, it's super easy, and it is very easy to work with the high
hydration dough. Check the loaves out and tell me what you think.

Sharon

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...hale/bread.jpg

On first sight, one week old starter, 18 hours fermentation == LB's ==
SD, IMO.

Not sure, if the yeasts (baker's) would survive at all in that 18 hour
time frame.
Maybe their remains are thankfully taken by the LB's as a delicacy snack.

Also - 2 oz starter does not say very much. For example, starter hydration,
ratio of starter flour to total flour (or something similar) would give
some more
insights what is really going on.

And - one week old starter by itself lacks meaning as well. One week in the
fridge can give you a decent starter for raising bread, one week on the
kitchen counter gives you something different with current temperatures
- so,
what is it?

Besides all this - the holey grail of holeyness is yours - great going!

Would be interesting to do a comparison - the same procedure with and
without the non-spoken ingredient, besides more specifics on the above.

Sam


doughnut wrote:
I have no doubt that many of you have, but in the nine years that I
have been working with sourdough, I have always built my bread from a
refreshed starter followed by making a sponge- usually overnight, and
then making the dough. A few weeks ago I was inspired by the
breadtopia.com recipe for the no-(you-know -what) sourdough and
decided to experiment with a straight dough method. It's been a
revelation. These breads were created by mixing the salt with the
flour and 2 oz of one-week-old starter with the water. I combined the
flour and starter/water in a mixing bowl and blended for less than 1
minute with a spatula then covered the mixture and placed on the
counter for 18 +/- hours. No kneading, no stretch and fold, nothing
but sitting. The ciabatta-style bread was about 80% hydration and the
sandwich bread was 65%. The second raise on the ciabatta was 45
minutes and on the sandwich bread was 1.5 hours. Three things that I
really like about this technique: the starter doesn't have to be very
fresh, it's super easy, and it is very easy to work with the high
hydration dough. Check the loaves out and tell me what you think.

Sharon

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...hale/bread.jpg

_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

On Jul 6, 11:57 am, Sam wrote:
On first sight, one week old starter, 18 hours fermentation == LB's ==
SD, IMO.

Not sure, if the yeasts (baker's) would survive at all in that 18 hour
time frame.
Maybe their remains are thankfully taken by the LB's as a delicacy snack.

Also - 2 oz starter does not say very much. For example, starter hydration,
ratio of starter flour to total flour (or something similar) would give
some more
insights what is really going on.

And - one week old starter by itself lacks meaning as well. One week in the
fridge can give you a decent starter for raising bread, one week on the
kitchen counter gives you something different with current temperatures
- so,
what is it?

Besides all this - the holey grail of holeyness is yours - great going!

Would be interesting to do a comparison - the same procedure with and
without the non-spoken ingredient, besides more specifics on the above.

Sam

doughnut wrote:
I have no doubt that many of you have, but in the nine years that I
have been working with sourdough, I have always built my bread from a
refreshed starter followed by making a sponge- usually overnight, and
then making the dough. A few weeks ago I was inspired by the
breadtopia.com recipe for the no-(you-know -what) sourdough and
decided to experiment with a straight dough method. It's been a
revelation. These breads were created by mixing the salt with the
flour and 2 oz of one-week-old starter with the water. I combined the
flour and starter/water in a mixing bowl and blended for less than 1
minute with a spatula then covered the mixture and placed on the
counter for 18 +/- hours. No kneading, no stretch and fold, nothing
but sitting. The ciabatta-style bread was about 80% hydration and the
sandwich bread was 65%. The second raise on the ciabatta was 45
minutes and on the sandwich bread was 1.5 hours. Three things that I
really like about this technique: the starter doesn't have to be very
fresh, it's super easy, and it is very easy to work with the high
hydration dough. Check the loaves out and tell me what you think.

Sharon

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...hale/bread.jpg

_______________________________________________
Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

The sourdough yeasties seemed to be going strong on the counter after
18 hours. And as you point out, 2 oz is quite a small amount. I think
that is why this technique works. As for the week-old starter, it had
no hooch, so it was probably okay, but by no means refreshed like I
usually to do. The no-(you-know -what) that I was referring to is the
infamous "no-knead" technique of NYT fame that I'd heard about upteen
times (and once too many!).

I tried this last week with freshly ground red and white wheat, BUT as an
experiment, I used 1/4 tsp of yeast instead of SD starter. The bread tasted
great even though I much prefer the SD version. I normally use 1 cup of
refreshed starter to 9 or 10 cups of flour and the dough ferments around 10
hours or so before baking.

I cannot see why a small amount of starter mixed with water and dispersed in
the dough and allowed to rise for 18 hours or so would not work the same.
Even with un-refreshed starter. I will try this and see what happens. I
think that as long as the SD starter is mixed very well into the dough at
the start, it should progress fine. The dry 'yeast' in the other recipe was
dispersed in the dry flour and salt before the liquid was ever added. Since
the dough in untouched for that long, the yeast needs to be able to
'consume' as much flour as possible.

I am sure there will be other opinions and that is what makes the newsgroups
so valuable.


"doughnut" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have no doubt that many of you have, but in the nine years that I
have been working with sourdough, I have always built my bread from a
refreshed starter followed by making a sponge- usually overnight, and
then making the dough. A few weeks ago I was inspired by the
breadtopia.com recipe for the no-(you-know -what) sourdough and
decided to experiment with a straight dough method. It's been a
revelation. These breads were created by mixing the salt with the
flour and 2 oz of one-week-old starter with the water. I combined the
flour and starter/water in a mixing bowl and blended for less than 1
minute with a spatula then covered the mixture and placed on the
counter for 18 +/- hours. No kneading, no stretch and fold, nothing
but sitting. The ciabatta-style bread was about 80% hydration and the
sandwich bread was 65%. The second raise on the ciabatta was 45
minutes and on the sandwich bread was 1.5 hours. Three things that I
really like about this technique: the starter doesn't have to be very
fresh, it's super easy, and it is very easy to work with the high
hydration dough. Check the loaves out and tell me what you think.

Sharon

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...hale/bread.jpg

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:27:08 -0700, doughnut wrote:

I combined the flour and starter/water in a mixing bowl and blended
for less than 1 minute with a spatula then covered the mixture and
placed on the counter for 18 +/- hours.

I was distinctly less venturesome. I bring my fridge-stored starter up
to speed in the approved manner and knead for the Hamelman-recommended
time.

But I have ignored Dick Adams' comments and make breads with 30 - 60% rye
flour. I started with a 20 minutes rest between adding the final flour
and starting to knead. The rest-period has been increased step-wise and is
now 60 minutes. With each increase in the "rest", my final dough has
become easier to handle.

Any comments?

My hydration-level is about 72%; but this does not mean very much
because our (Australian) flours appear to have only a passing
similarity to the flours used in the US and in Europe.

Felix Karpfen



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On 6 Jul, 19:27, doughnut wrote:
I have no doubt that many of you have, but in the nine years that I
have been working with sourdough, I have always built my bread from a
refreshed starter followed by making a sponge- usually overnight, and
then making the dough. .
Sharon

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...hale/bread.jpg

Hi Sharon,

as Jeff mentioned the other week most I've been banging on about the
benefits of a long rise for over a year now, I haven't talked about it
here because it was met with such disdain when I first started to
investigate it I didn't see the point but it was inspired by Kenneth's
talk about a French technique

http://tinyurl.com/2gswxc
and Dicky's doc for the main conversion.

http://tinyurl.com/24jmxb

I figured if it works with no starter sometimes it should work with
some starter all the time, it was just a case of deciding how much.
Then Hans and Slim pointed me in the direction of what I needed to
perfect my calculations.
http://tinyurl.com/ysfpab

It was pooh poohed quite a bit in the Yahoo group then people in the
fresh loaf seemed only interested in how lovely people were I deleted
my blogs about it. It seems people listened more than I thought. I do
a 24 hour rise most of the time because it's easier when working; 18
hours on a Friday is perfect for a Saturday bake though.

Thanks to Dicky my recipe is here.

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ji...tructions.html

Jim

On Jul 8, 10:36 am, TG wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for the links. Now that I am a believer, I couldn't agree with
you more. But try skipping the turn out at one hour. From my
experience, it isn't necessary. Just sitting on the counter seems to
work fine for a very wide range of hydrations.
Sharon

Felix Karpfen wrote:
I started with a 20 minutes rest between adding the final flour
and starting to knead. The rest-period has been increased step-wise and is
now 60 minutes. With each increase in the "rest", my final dough has
become easier to handle.

Any comments?


Felix, Have you read "The Hand Made Loaf" by Dan Lepard? It is another
exception to the usual run of worthless bread books. Mr Lepard
describes one technique that consists of 10 second kneads spaced over a
period of time which is not too dissimilar from what you have discovered.

The benefit of a rest period for both yeasted and natural leavened dough
is that the flour has time to hydrate to a larger degree. With
sourdough additional chemical development of the gluten can occur.

Regards,

Charles

On 8 Jul, 19:11, doughnut wrote:
On Jul 8, 10:36 am, TG wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for the links. Now that I am a believer, I couldn't agree with
you more. But try skipping the turn out at one hour. From my
experience, it isn't necessary. Just sitting on the counter seems to
work fine for a very wide range of hydrations.
Sharon

Lol, thanks Sharon. Going to the extreme just never occurred to me. :
-)

Jim

On 9 Jul, 08:50, TG wrote:
On 8 Jul, 19:11, doughnut wrote:

On Jul 8, 10:36 am, TG wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for the links. Now that I am a believer, I couldn't agree with
you more. But try skipping the turn out at one hour. From my
experience, it isn't necessary. Just sitting on the counter seems to
work fine for a very wide range of hydrations.
Sharon

Lol, thanks Sharon. Going to the extreme just never occurred to me. :
-)

Jim

I should have added though that you don't need such long rises in
order to avoid working the dough. The rest period works just as well
on a six hour rise or even a four hour yeasted dough.

Jim

On Jul 9, 1:51 am, TG wrote:
On 9 Jul, 08:50, TG wrote:

On 8 Jul, 19:11, doughnut wrote:

On Jul 8, 10:36 am, TG wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for the links. Now that I am a believer, I couldn't agree with
you more. But try skipping the turn out at one hour. From my
experience, it isn't necessary. Just sitting on the counter seems to
work fine for a very wide range of hydrations.
Sharon

Lol, thanks Sharon. Going to the extreme just never occurred to me. :
-)

Jim

I should have added though that you don't need such long rises in
order to avoid working the dough. The rest period works just as well
on a six hour rise or even a four hour yeasted dough.

Jim

Yes, I think we discussed this some time back. The 18 hours just is
convenient for me. It also seems that using a small amount of starter
and fermenting over a long period of time with no manual manipulation
results in far less gluten deterioration than I have had using a multi-
build technique together with kneading.
Sharon

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 03:29:23 +0000, Charles Perry wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 03:29:23 +0000, Charles Perry wrote:

Felix Karpfen wrote:
I started with a 20 minutes rest between adding the final flour
and starting to knead. The rest-period has been increased step-wise and is
now 60 minutes. With each increase in the "rest", my final dough has
become easier to handle.


The benefit of a rest period for both yeasted and natural leavened dough
is that the flour has time to hydrate to a larger degree. With
sourdough additional chemical development of the gluten can occur.


I was aware of the theory and had experimented with intermittent
kneading. That helped when I had stiff doughs (and worried about
overloading my mixer motor).

Currently, my doughs start off sticky and I worry about being able to
handle them by the end of the recommended kneading time. I suspect
that there is an optimum "rest period", but have not found it yet.

Thank you for the reference and kind regards

Felix



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:


Currently, my doughs start off sticky and I worry about being able to
handle them by the end of the recommended kneading time. I suspect
that there is an optimum "rest period", but have not found it yet.


With wheat flour, for most breads, I no longer knead much beyond mixing
followed by rests and stretch and folds of some type. I have not yet
found anything near an optimum procedure. There seems to be quite a bit
of interaction between the length of rests and the number of stretch and
folds or mini-kneads. The end is a well developed dough and there seems
to be many paths to that end.

It is amazing how much a stretch and fold can improve the handling
nature of even a slack dough. When I did the S&F on a floured board
with floured hands, I thought the surface was just picking up flour to
make a less hydrated skin on the dough. However there is much the same
effect when you do a S&F on a polished surface with a dough scraper.

I am interested in how you resolve the procedures.

Regards,

Charles

For "normal" sourdough fermentation, say 4-6 hours, s and f is
probably beneficial, but with the mini starter amount/ absolutely no
manipulation/18 hour fermention that I tried, the doughs behaved
beautifully during the second raise. I have tried this 5 times now
with hydrations between 65 and 80%.
Sharon

Charles Perry wrote:
Felix Karpfen wrote:


Currently, my doughs start off sticky and I worry about being able to
handle them by the end of the recommended kneading time. I suspect
that there is an optimum "rest period", but have not found it yet.


With wheat flour, for most breads, I no longer knead much beyond mixing
followed by rests and stretch and folds of some type. I have not yet
found anything near an optimum procedure. There seems to be quite a bit
of interaction between the length of rests and the number of stretch and
folds or mini-kneads. The end is a well developed dough and there seems
to be many paths to that end.

It is amazing how much a stretch and fold can improve the handling
nature of even a slack dough. When I did the S&F on a floured board
with floured hands, I thought the surface was just picking up flour to
make a less hydrated skin on the dough. However there is much the same
effect when you do a S&F on a polished surface with a dough scraper.

I am interested in how you resolve the procedures.

Regards,

Charles

On 12 Jul, 21:08, doughnut wrote:
For "normal" sourdough fermentation, say 4-6 hours, s and f is
probably beneficial, but with the mini starter amount/ absolutely no
manipulation/18 hour fermention that I tried, the doughs behaved
beautifully during the second raise. I have tried this 5 times now
with hydrations between 65 and 80%.
Sharon


Sharon I beg to differ, I've been doing the long rise thing for over a
year now and playing around with no to little working of the dough for
much longer, you can get edible loaves by not working the dough but
you get much better shaping with some working of the dough, how you
work the dough is up to you but you do need to get some working of the
dough. Notice that I say working and not specify folding or kneading,
slapping, and so on. If I were at home I'd upload some of the really
ugly loaves that I made with no working of the dough other than final,
lazy shaping, oh yeah the crumb was fine but they look like shit. If I
get time I'll upload them tonight.

Jim