Why not mention some breads that do well with various ingredients beyond
flour, water, salt, and leavener, and describe those benefits for the various
cases, particularly insofar as the various additional ingredients make things
easier.

Ok. If I'm making cinnamon-raisin-nut bread, for instance, most of the flavor will come from the nuts, cinnamon and any sugar or fats added. So long as I measure everything right, it's pretty much going taste like cinnamon-raisin nut bread. Or, if I'm making a sourdough whole wheat sandwich loaf (to which I add about 1 to 1.5 Tbs honey and 1 Tbs butter per loaf), the butter helps strengthen the gluten, giving a better rise, and also adds flavor in concert with the honey. It doesn't overpower the sourdough flavor, but if, for some reason, the starter is off, the loaf still tastes good.

As Mike said, with a lean loaf, if your technique is bad, there's nothing to hide behind and the bread will suffer.

Also, when you're making an enriched bread, you don't expect to get (at least, I don't) a very open and airy crumb. If you're making a lean wheat bread, an open crumb is one of the hallmarks of a well made loaf, and getting that open crumb is not easy to do. So expectations, I think, also play into it.

I'm not saying that I think it's tougher for a beginner to get a loaf of bread with just water, flour, salt and leavening. It may be easier, actually. But I do think it's easier to get a tasty, good-looking loaf of bread with additions than it is with just the main four ingredients.

Jeff Miller wrote:
Why not mention some breads that do well with various ingredients beyond
flour, water, salt, and leavener, and describe those benefits for the various
cases, particularly insofar as the various additional ingredients make things
easier.

Ok. If I'm making cinnamon-raisin-nut bread, for instance, most of the flavor will come from the nuts, cinnamon and any sugar or fats added. So long as I measure everything right, it's pretty much going taste like cinnamon-raisin nut bread. Or, if I'm making a sourdough whole wheat sandwich loaf (to which I add about 1 to 1.5 Tbs honey and 1 Tbs butter per loaf), the butter helps strengthen the gluten, giving a better rise, and also adds flavor in concert with the honey. It doesn't overpower the sourdough flavor, but if, for some reason, the starter is off, the loaf still tastes good.

As Mike said, with a lean loaf, if your technique is bad, there's nothing to hide behind and the bread will suffer.

Also, when you're making an enriched bread, you don't expect to get (at least, I don't) a very open and airy crumb. If you're making a lean wheat bread, an open crumb is one of the hallmarks of a well made loaf, and getting that open crumb is not easy to do. So expectations, I think, also play into it.

I'm not saying that I think it's tougher for a beginner to get a loaf of bread with just water, flour, salt and leavening. It may be easier, actually. But I do think it's easier to get a tasty, good-looking loaf of bread with additions than it is with just the main four ingredients.


I don't understand your 'crumb' descriptions.

Are you saying you want large holes in the bread vs nice even small bubbles?

Mike

Jeff Miller wrote:
Why not mention some breads that do well with various ingredients beyond
flour, water, salt, and leavener, and describe those benefits for the various
cases, particularly insofar as the various additional ingredients make things
easier.


Ok. If I'm making cinnamon-raisin-nut bread, for instance, most of the flavor will come from the nuts, cinnamon and any sugar or fats added. So long as I measure everything right, it's pretty much going taste like cinnamon-raisin nut bread. Or, if I'm making a sourdough whole wheat sandwich loaf (to which I add about 1 to 1.5 Tbs honey and 1 Tbs butter per loaf), the butter helps strengthen the gluten, giving a better rise, and also adds flavor in concert with the honey. It doesn't overpower the sourdough flavor, but if, for some reason, the starter is off, the loaf still tastes good.

As Mike said, with a lean loaf, if your technique is bad, there's nothing to hide behind and the bread will suffer.

Also, when you're making an enriched bread, you don't expect to get (at least, I don't) a very open and airy crumb. If you're making a lean wheat bread, an open crumb is one of the hallmarks of a well made loaf, and getting that open crumb is not easy to do. So expectations, I think, also play into it.

I'm not saying that I think it's tougher for a beginner to get a loaf of bread with just water, flour, salt and leavening. It may be easier, actually. But I do think it's easier to get a tasty, good-looking loaf of bread with additions than it is with just the main four ingredients.
How does butter help strengthen gluten?
Ellen

"Jeff Miller" wrote in message news:mailman.0.1181418996.60952.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

If I'm making cinnamon-raisin-nut bread, for instance, most
of the flavor will come from the nuts, cinnamon and any sugar
or fats added. So long as I measure everything right, it's pretty
much going taste like cinnamon-raisin nut bread.

So why not just make that as a conventionally yeasted bread?
It is totally unlikely that the sourdough flavors will be noticeable
in such a fancy bread.

Or, if I'm making a sourdough whole wheat sandwich loaf
(to which I add about 1 to 1.5 Tbs honey and 1 Tbs butter per
loaf), the butter helps strengthen the gluten, giving a better rise,
and also adds flavor in concert with the honey. It doesn't overpower
the sourdough flavor, but if, for some reason, the starter is off,
the loaf still tastes good.

The starter is off to where? The races? I really doubt that sourdough
flavors are going to be distinguishable in honey-sweetened whole-
wheat bread. Again a good possibility for Fleishmann's, which
incidentally is not so likely to take the day off and go to the races.

As Mike said, with a lean loaf, if your technique is bad, there's
nothing to hide behind and the bread will suffer.

Mike should be braver, and so should you! Take your lumps and
learn from your experience.

Also, when you're making an enriched bread, you don't expect to get
(at least, I don't) a very open and airy crumb. If you're making a lean
wheat bread, an open crumb is one of the hallmarks of a well made
loaf, and getting that open crumb is not easy to do. So expectations,
I think, also play into it.

"Lean" and "hallmarks" and "well-made" are some terms deserving of
contextual qualification. "Lean" is good in meat if you are not socked
into Lipitor, "Hallmarks" for greetings, and "well-made" for reverent
book readers. "Enriched" is a lovely word (usually, in bread, meaning
added vitamins).

Simple sourdough is pretty straightforward. I do not think that one should
rise to the status of an advice giver with a message like: simple sourdough
bread is hard to make so you should start by adding a lot of stuff to your
dough so that, if the sourdough fermentation fails for some reason, no one
will notice it.

Huge holes are a loftier goal, but arbitrary, and not brought closer by
inappropriate ingredients.

I'm not saying that I think it's tougher for a beginner to get a loaf of
bread with just water, flour, salt and leavening. It may be easier,
actually. But I do think it's easier to get a tasty, good-looking loaf
of bread with additions than it is with just the main four ingredients.

Yes, it does appear that you think that, and you should be ashamed of
yourself!

But you may be on the way to writing a book, or launching a fancy web
site, so good luck, especially after I finally succeed to publish a practical
recipe for simple sourdough bread on one page, maybe even a half-page.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:

It is totally unlikely that the sourdough flavors will be noticeable
in such a fancy bread.

I would like to address that because I make 'sticky buns' with sourdough
starter and the flavor is there for sure.

These are rolled up like a jellyroll and cut into 2" sticks and stood
up. They are stuffed with butter, cinnamon, nuts, apple, raisins, brown
sugar and some honey. They go in a butter greased bread pan layered
with pecan halves and get flipped upside down on a plate when done.

A lot of 'sourdough' recipes I have also call for an addition of
commercial yeast as well as a cup of starter, 'fresh' or otherwise. All
of these varieties show off the sourdough flavor very nicely.

I can make a loaf like a grocery bakery has here in Canada, almost exact
but the recipe 'does' call for some commercial yeast and sugar.

Mike

"Mike Romain" wrote in message
ng.com...

... I make 'sticky buns' with sourdough starter and the flavor
is there for sure.

Aye, and sure it is -- the flavor of butter, cinnamon, nuts, apple,
raisins, brown sugar and some honey.

I can make a (sourdough) loaf like a grocery bakery has here in
Canada, almost exact but the recipe 'does' call for some commercial
yeast and sugar.

Here's another trick. You can color it dark brown with black coffee or
caramel color and call it Canadian Pumpernickel.


"Jeff Miller" wrote in message
news:mailman.2.1181510474.60952.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

... if you're looking to make bread that tastes and looks like the bread
you buy at a good bakery, it's easier to achieve that goal if you shoot
for the breads that have more "stuff" in them than the breads that use only
four ingredients.

The bread that you buy at a good bakery, if it is labeled as sourdough,
most likely has but four ingredients. That is how you would identify a good
bakery.

Take, for instance, Iggy's Francese: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm

How's this? Simple sourdough bread is indeed simple to make.
Sourdough bread that looks and tastes like sourdough bread from
a good bakery is hard to make.

If you're after big holes, adding more ingredients just makes it harder,
most of the time.

OK. Homemade sourdough bread is hard to make look like the bread
from the good bakery, and to have same quality of crust, unless you have
the same oven the good bakery does, or are willing to go to a lot of
trouble to make your baking loaves think they are in the same thermal
environment as a bakery oven can provide. But it easily can taste as
good, chew as good, and look as good without looking exactly like the
bakery loaf, or having holes quite so big.

Do I get any points for confessing that, on the rare occasions when
I make white bread sourdough, I generally don't add anything but
flour, water, salt and starter?

Be sure to tell that to your priest. Assuming you do business with priests.
Perhaps you are one who could get into trouble for salt and leavening?

I liked your half page ...

Funny, that. I am still working on it, and I do not think it has appeared
in public. But Samartha's Wu Wei offering could, today, be edited quite
easily down to one page:
http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...-05/index.html

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in message
ng.com...

... I make 'sticky buns' with sourdough starter and the flavor
is there for sure.

Aye, and sure it is -- the flavor of butter, cinnamon, nuts, apple,
raisins, brown sugar and some honey.

So what do 'you' call bread that is made with sourdough starter instead
of commercial yeast?




Take, for instance, Iggy's Francese: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm


Wow, OK, apples and oranges.

I got that kind of texture when I rolled some no kneed french sticks up.
They were good, but that texture isn't all all what I aim for with my
daily bread. I now see where the 'stretch and fold 3 or 4 times is useful.

I am looking for a softer bread with a much smaller crumb usually.

It is nice to have variety though.

Mike

"Mike Romain" wrote in message ng.com...

So what do 'you' call bread that is made with sourdough starter instead
of commercial yeast?

A waste of time, if it has got so much stuff in it that the sourdough
flavors are lost.

I am looking for a softer bread with a much smaller crumb usually.

You are lucky, because that is easier to do. Easy to find on the
supermarket shelves, too.

Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:

"Mike Romain" wrote in message
ng.com...


... I make 'sticky buns' with sourdough starter and the flavor
is there for sure.

Aye, and sure it is -- the flavor of butter, cinnamon, nuts, apple,
raisins, brown sugar and some honey.


So what do 'you' call bread that is made with sourdough starter instead
of commercial yeast?

I call it "bread" or even "sourdough bread."

Many people seem to have this mindset that sourdough bread must have
only water, flour, salt and a riser in it. As if it were a mathematical
proof and those ingredients were necessary and sufficient. Adding
anything else, as with a mathematical proof, reduces elegance. Or as in
an engineering project where anything that is not necessary should be
eschewed as if an element is not contributing to the project, it is
detracting from the project.

Horse hockey! It's not a mathematical proof, it's not an engineering
project, it's a loaf of bread! Its purpose is to be eaten and enjoyed.
If that means adding fruit, nuts, olives, sugar, oil, butter or what
not, that's fine. It's also fine if the people who scream that bread
should be only the sacred four ingredients don't enjoy the bread.
Paraphrase to them what Dr. Frankenfurter told Janet in "The Rocky
Horror Picture Show," "I didn't make it for you!"

Before the mid to late 1800's, when reliable commercial baking yeast was
introduced, virtually all breads that were made were made with sourdough.

We have had extensive discussions around here revolving around the idea
that sourdough bread need not taste sour. The taste of sourdough, even
a plain and simple sourdough, varies depending on the flour used, the
culture used, how long the dough was allowed to rise and at what
temperature, the skill of the baker, and, of course, the bread faeries.
Just because we call it sourdough doesn't mean it's sour.

When you make a cinnamon raisin bread with sourdough instead of with
yeast, the bread WILL taste different. It will have a greater depth of
flavor, more complexity, more flavor notes. Further, the acidity of the
sourdough, even if it is lactic acid with a mild flavor profile, will
act as a natural preservative allowing the bread to be stored longer
before staling or molding occurs. Moreover, the activity of the
sourdough starter will make a number of micro-nutrients in the bread
more biologically available. In all, there is a net benefit to using
sourdough to make bread. Even if the bread doesn't get in your face
screaming "SOURDOUGH!" at you.

Some people around here really need to get off line and see about
acquiring lives.

Mike
--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Are you
An even-tempered guy?
Mad all
The time?
Better try
Burma-Shave

"Mike Avery" wrote in message news:mailman.6.1181595855.60952.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

When you make a cinnamon raisin bread with sourdough instead of with
yeast, the bread WILL taste different. It will have a greater depth of
flavor, more complexity, more flavor notes.

When you make a sandwich of fried baloney and kimchee, you probably
will not notice too much about the bread other than the consistency. It
would not be good with cinnamon raisin bread, however.

Between two slices is the preferred place to include arbitrary ingredients
in bread. Take peanut butter, for instance. Lettuce. Mayo. Tomato
slices. Sardines. ...

Further, the acidity of the sourdough, even if it is lactic acid with a
mild flavor profile, will act as a natural preservative allowing the
bread to be stored longer before staling or molding occurs.

Wouldn't know. The bread is gone before tests can be made.

Moreover, the activity of the sourdough starter will make a number
of micro-nutrients in the bread more biologically available.

Anyway, taking a multivitamin tablet daily. Anchovy sandwiches
may be good for the omega oils.

Some people around here really need to get off line and see about
acquiring lives.

Would answer more fully, but gotta go try to acquire a life now. Please
forgive the unapologized deletions. (Some people, seeking to acquire a
life, do not have time to read all that stuff.)

--
Dicky

Mike Avery wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:
Dick Adams wrote:

"Mike Romain" wrote in message
ng.com...


... I make 'sticky buns' with sourdough starter and the flavor is
there for sure.

Aye, and sure it is -- the flavor of butter, cinnamon, nuts, apple,
raisins, brown sugar and some honey.

So what do 'you' call bread that is made with sourdough starter
instead of commercial yeast?

I call it "bread" or even "sourdough bread."

I have to agree with your well written bread opinion below.

It 'never' occurred to me that there was a 'pure' sourdough bread,
especially seeing as the cookbooks I read just refer to using the
'starter' as a commercial yeast replacement.

I call my white or brown bread what they are and if I use or add
sourdough starter, I call it 'sourdough' white or pizza or whatever.
The tastes 'are' distinctly different to me.

I actually thought my loafs that came out with the texture of that
Iggy's bread a partial failure. LOL They do always get eaten fast though.

I am making another 'pure' sourdough loaf today using the stretch and
fold method just to see if I can brown this one nice without sugar or
fat. The last one got woofed down and requests are in for more.

Mike


Many people seem to have this mindset that sourdough bread must have
only water, flour, salt and a riser in it. As if it were a mathematical
proof and those ingredients were necessary and sufficient. Adding
anything else, as with a mathematical proof, reduces elegance. Or as in
an engineering project where anything that is not necessary should be
eschewed as if an element is not contributing to the project, it is
detracting from the project.

Horse hockey! It's not a mathematical proof, it's not an engineering
project, it's a loaf of bread! Its purpose is to be eaten and enjoyed.
If that means adding fruit, nuts, olives, sugar, oil, butter or what
not, that's fine. It's also fine if the people who scream that bread
should be only the sacred four ingredients don't enjoy the bread.
Paraphrase to them what Dr. Frankenfurter told Janet in "The Rocky
Horror Picture Show," "I didn't make it for you!"

Before the mid to late 1800's, when reliable commercial baking yeast was
introduced, virtually all breads that were made were made with sourdough.

We have had extensive discussions around here revolving around the idea
that sourdough bread need not taste sour. The taste of sourdough, even
a plain and simple sourdough, varies depending on the flour used, the
culture used, how long the dough was allowed to rise and at what
temperature, the skill of the baker, and, of course, the bread faeries.
Just because we call it sourdough doesn't mean it's sour.

When you make a cinnamon raisin bread with sourdough instead of with
yeast, the bread WILL taste different. It will have a greater depth of
flavor, more complexity, more flavor notes. Further, the acidity of the
sourdough, even if it is lactic acid with a mild flavor profile, will
act as a natural preservative allowing the bread to be stored longer
before staling or molding occurs. Moreover, the activity of the
sourdough starter will make a number of micro-nutrients in the bread
more biologically available. In all, there is a net benefit to using
sourdough to make bread. Even if the bread doesn't get in your face
screaming "SOURDOUGH!" at you.

Some people around here really need to get off line and see about
acquiring lives.

Mike

Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in message ng.com...

So what do 'you' call bread that is made with sourdough starter instead
of commercial yeast?

A waste of time, if it has got so much stuff in it that the sourdough
flavors are lost.

I am looking for a softer bread with a much smaller crumb usually.

You are lucky, because that is easier to do. Easy to find on the
supermarket shelves, too.


I 'really' can tell the taste differences when I use sourdough starter
in a recipe so I call my bread, pizza, buns, etc., 'sourdough' vs when I
make 'regular' white or brown bread based items so I guess I am lucky in
a couple ways. :-)

I never dreamed there was a 'pure' sourdough cult, it is interesting.

My cook books just say I can 'substitute' sourdough starter anyplace
commercial yeast is called for in a recipe so that is what I do for a
really nice taste treat difference than the 'regular' product.

I did get asked to make another loaf of the 'pure' stuff, the boys
woofed the other one down, so one is happening today using the fold and
stretch kneed method and only the 4 ingredients.

We will see how brown I can get this one.

Mike

"Mike Romain" wrote in message ng.com...

I actually thought my loafs that came out with the texture of that
Iggy's bread a partial failure. LOL They do always get eaten fast though.

You seem to be saying that dumb luck has made you an inadvertant master
baker, and that, in spite you are equipped only with a home oven, as contrasted
with Iggy's equipment, and notwithstanding Iggy's staff and considerable experience.

One might view: www.iggysbread.com/

"Mike Romain" wrote in message ng.com...

I did get asked to make another loaf of the 'pure' stuff, the boys
woofed the other one down ...

Aha, you are saying that your family is eating up your product. That
is a very good sigh!

Dick Adams wrote:
"Mike Romain" wrote in message
ng.com...

So what do 'you' call bread [with the flavor of butter, cinnamon,
nuts, apple, raisins, brown sugar and some honey] that is made with
sourdough starter instead of commercial yeast?

A waste of time, if it has got so much stuff in it that the sourdough
flavors are lost.

Myself, I don't see why someone would go to the effort of putting "so
much stuff" in a sourdough loaf when the cost:benefit ratio would be
improved by using commercial yeast ("cost" defined here as time and
energy spent).

But if we define sourdough as "a process using leavening retained from
one bake to another" I can't see why such a thing wouldn't be called bread.

B/

Mike Avery wrote:
[...]
Horse hockey! It's not a mathematical proof, it's not an engineering
project, it's a loaf of bread! Its purpose is to be eaten and enjoyed.

How true:

http://tinyurl.com/yqhjwj

(that will stay for a month, then I'll take it off)

- no browning issues there ;-)


If that means adding fruit, nuts, olives, sugar, oil, butter or what
not, that's fine.

I have no problem with that - I just enjoy and am very surprised what
simplicity in sourdough baking offers. Anything more would just spoil it
(for me, at this point in time).

Samartha