Hi all,

I've been reading the NG for quite some time as I struggled through the
hockey puck/manhole cover stage. Unfortunately, I haven't, over the past 3
months, progressed much further. (
I killed my first starter with highly chlorine loaded tap water. The second
batch, fed with spring water and fortified with some whole wheat flour is
flourishing. After feeding, it frothes with a gusto after an hour or so at
80 degrees. What is so frustrating is that I take the starter when it has
frothed and bulked up about 25% and add it to my recipe. I get almost no
rise in the first or second rising. I've used both the bread machine and
the Mixmaster dough hook for mixing with the same results. Even after 12
hours of waiting for the first rise, nothing seems to happen. Of course, I
get a little rise when baking but it's still flat and doughy.
My recipe was taken off the net at www.io.com and uses:
2 cups starter
3 cups flour
4 teaspoons sugar
2 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons of olive oil.

I'm at a cross roads of either adding some yeast (a sacrilege) or taking up
another hobby like brain surgery (which would be easier).

What in the world am I doing wrong?

Thanks to all

Tom wrote:

Hi all,

I've been reading the NG for quite some time snip

I'm at a cross roads of either adding some yeast (a sacrilege) or taking
up another hobby like brain surgery (which would be easier).
Thanks to all

I feel your pain. I also try far a long time (3 years) and only now geting
bread which I like. I went to less hydration (60%) for starter, feed every
12 hours @ 75 deg.


My dough now is: 100% flour
57% water
2.4% salt
32% yeast starter @ 55% hydration
Proof for 5 1/2 hours @ 88 deg.
Bake @ 440 deg. for 45 minutes (:-)

I not sure what works but try differant things, keep good records. The brain
surgery may be easier.

Joe Umstead

Thanks for the reply, Joe.
When you say 60% hydration on the starter, do you mean that you add 60%
water and 40% flour each time you feed it?

See, I said I was a newbee.... )

Tom

"Joe Umstead" wrote in message
...
Tom wrote:

Hi all,

I've been reading the NG for quite some time snip

I'm at a cross roads of either adding some yeast (a sacrilege) or taking
up another hobby like brain surgery (which would be easier).
Thanks to all

I feel your pain. I also try far a long time (3 years) and only now geting
bread which I like. I went to less hydration (60%) for starter, feed every
12 hours @ 75 deg.


My dough now is: 100% flour
57% water
2.4% salt
32% yeast starter @ 55% hydration
Proof for 5 1/2 hours @ 88 deg.
Bake @ 440 deg. for 45 minutes (:-)

I not sure what works but try differant things, keep good records. The
brain
surgery may be easier.

Joe Umstead

Tom wrote:
What in the world am I doing wrong?

I didn't see any sourdough information at the link you provided. If it
is an internal link on the page, it'd be nice if you shared it.

However, I prefer to let the starter double before I use it. My mantra,
which probably isn't entirely accurate, is if your starter can't double
itself, it can't double your bread.

Also, dough development is very important.

The recipe you posted was:
2 cups starter
3 cups flour
4 teaspoons sugar
2 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons of olive oil.
It isn't clear from your notes what sort of flour you are using. You
mention you are feeding your starter whole wheat flour. On my web page,
http://www.sourdoughhome.com, I suggest people learn the mechanics using
white flour before using whole wheat. Whole wheat is harder to work with.

Also, you need more water when you work with whole wheat. Where a white
bread might be about 60 to 70% water by bakers percentages, whole wheat
is usually closer to 85%.

One other recurring beginner problem is they believe the cookbooks that
tell them the dough should be smooth, shiny and not sticky. Most
beginners add more flour to get rid of the stickiness. And that leads
to very, very dry dough which leads to doorstops.

Whole wheat is more problematical in this regard, because while it
absorbs more water than white flour, it does so more slowly. So, when
the dough feels right to the beginner (and it's too dry), it is going to
get still dryer as the flour absorbs the water.

Beatrice Ojakangas, one of my favorite bread cookbook authors, puts it
more simply, "Dough would rather be a bit too wet than a bit too dry."
Put another way, wetter is better.

In looking at your recipe, I'd start by omitting the sugar.

Let's start with starter feeding. I feed my starter 2 parts water to 3
parts flour by volume, or 1 part flour to 1 part water by weight. I
feed the starter twice a day when it's at room temperature. With each
feeding, I feed it enough to double it in size. If you feed it less,
you are starving it. The starter should be able to rise until doubled
after each feeding. (Many people, like Joe, keep their starter drier.
There are many good reasons to do this, and that is what I do in the
bakery. However, for beginners, I find it is easier to work with the
starter as outlined above.)

Next, I'd feed my starter and let it rise until it's doubled.

Then, I'd put the two cups of starter into a bowl, add all the
ingredients except the flour and then add 1/2 the flour called for and
stir the dough together.

When it's stirred, I'd add more flour about 1/4 cup at a time until the
dough has come together and is difficult to stir. At that point, I'd
turn the dough out onto a very lightly floured work surface, cover it
with your mixing bowl, let it sit for 10 to 15 minutes, and then uncover
it and begin kneading. The wait period is to the whole heat flour will
have time to absorb the water in the dough, so you'll be less likely to
add too much flour.

As you knead, your goal is not to remove the stickiness, just to get it
to a point where it would rather stick to itself than to you or the work
surface. At this point, I would pretend I was Ebenezer Scrooge from "A
Christmas Carol" and that flour cost as much as Saffron ("The Most
Expensive Spice In The World(tm)"). Add it a tablespoon at a time. You
want to add as little flour as possible. If you add too much, the dough
will get to dense, and neither sourdough nor yeast nor bread faeries nor
explosives will be able to raise it.

When the dough is smooth, when it springs back when you touch it, it is
probably ready. At that point, put a teaspoon of oil in a clean bowl.
Roll the dough into a ball, then roll the ball of dough in the oil.
Cover the bowl with clingwrap and let the dough rise until doubled. If
your house is cool, you might put the bowl into your oven with just the
oven light on. (Overall, slower rises are better, but this time out, we
want to make sure your bread will work out for you.)

When your dough has doubled in size, uncover it, knead it lightly, and
then form it into a loaf and put it into a loaf pan. You shouldn't fill
the loaf pan more than 1/2 full so the dough will have room to rise.
When people over-fill the loaf pan, the dough rises to fill the pan too
quickly and they bake the bread before it has had a chance to completely
develop its taste and character.

Cover the dough with clingwrap and let it rise.

When the dough is close to having doubled, remove the bread pan from the
oven and preheat your oven to 425F. When the oven is at the right
temperature, uncover the dough and put it into the oven. At about 15
minutes, lower the temperature to 350F and turn the loaf around. About
20 minutes later, pull the loaf of bread out of the oven and slide it
out of the bread pan. Tap the bottom. It should sound hollow. If not,
put it back into the oven for another 5 minutes or so.

Some people prefer to use a cold-start oven technique where the dough is
put into a cold oven and then the oven is turned on. There are many
reasons to do that, but I find too much depends on your oven and how
fast it heats up. Once you get the simpler method working, you can give
the cold start a try.

Good luck,
Mike

Tom wrote:
Thanks for the reply, Joe.
When you say 60% hydration on the starter, do you mean that you add 60%
water and 40% flour each time you feed it?

Joe is talking in bakers percentages. They are really only relevant if
you are weighing your ingredients, and can be confusing.

In bakers percentages, a formula (not a recipe) is expressed so flour is
always 100% and the other ingredients are expressed as a percentage of
the flour. So 60% hydration means flour is 100% (by definition) and
water is 60% of that.

Or, 10 pounds of flour and 6 pounds of water. It doesn't matter what
weight system you are using, pounds, ounces, grams, troy ounces.... the
percentages work out.

A good baguette formula is:
All-purpose Flour 100%
Water 60%
Salt 2%
Instant dry Yeast 1%

Bakers percentages make it easy to scale formulas up or down, and make
it easy for the baker to know what the dough should feel like. Bagels
are usually around 55% hydration, sandwich breads around 65% and some
artisan breads get into the 95% range.

For now, I wouldn't worry about bakers percentages.

Good luck,
Mike

On Apr 11, 8:49 am, "Tom" wrote:

I get almost no
rise in the first or second rising. I've used both the bread machine and
the Mixmaster dough hook for mixing with the same results. Even after 12
hours of waiting for the first rise, nothing seems to happen.

What in the world am I doing wrong?

Mike's reply is a great advice. My response confines itself to your
starter...

Your difficulty could be any number of things... but I'd bet on weak
starter. This is easy to correct. The fix is to go to VERY SMALL
VOLUMES and feed it MORE FREQUENTLY.

The next time you feed it, when it hits the frothy stage, DON'T MAKE
BREAD. Instead, place two two tablespoons of your frothy starter in a
small jar, and add enough additional flour and water to double it...
this means you will have 4 tablespoons total. NO MORE!

Wait for it to froth again. Repeat the process. Take two tablespoons
out and double them with fresh flour and water to four tablespoons
total. Let it ferment again.

At this point, it has cycled 3 times, once with your original process
and twice at reduced volume. Now you can build it to make bread.

This build is easy... you are starting with 4 tablespoons. Add two
more of water, and two of flour. When that froths, add 4 tablespoons
of water and four of flour and wait again. You should end up with
about a cup of gassy, frothy starter. This cup is what you use to
leaven your bread... (after you have reserved two tablespoons for
future use).

The secret to vigorous SD starter is to keep the storage volume low.
This enforces a feeding regimen that builds volume over several
refreshment cycles. It is the number of refreshment cycles that
provide vigor, not the volume of starter that you store. That bears
repeating... it is the number of refreshment cycles that provides
leavening vigor, not the volume you store.

An aside... skip the sugar. You want the critters to feed on starch.
That's where the flavor lies.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:49:56 -0400, "Tom"
wrote:

After feeding, it frothes with a gusto after an hour or so at
80 degrees.

Hi Tom,

Through (approximately) how many cycles of feeding have you
had that experience?

I ask because that seems incredibly fast for a stable
culture.

There are many folks here who will assist, so hang in there.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Wow, a tremendous amount of great information. It appears that I've been
doing everything bass akwards. I like the advice on building from a small
volume. I have NOT been doing that, which could be a contributing factor.
I used 1/2 bread flour and 1/2 whole wheat flour to start but then switched
to all bread flour after it got going because the wife didn't like the whole
wheat taste. (
I'll definitely try the small volume approach.

As far as feeding to a 'stable' starter, I would guess about 10-12 over a
week's time. It surprised me, too. I had a quart jar about 1/3 full and it
overflowed one night so it was pretty active. It toned down after that.
The comment that 'if it doesn't double in volume as a starter, it won't
double the bread" makes a lot of sense. Also, I could actually be adding
TOO MUCH starter to the recipe, hence not giving the starter enough food to
chew on.

The link I was referring to is http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm

Thanks to all and I'll be looking for more advice.

Tom
"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:49:56 -0400, "Tom"
wrote:

After feeding, it frothes with a gusto after an hour or so at
80 degrees.

Hi Tom,

Through (approximately) how many cycles of feeding have you
had that experience?

I ask because that seems incredibly fast for a stable
culture.

There are many folks here who will assist, so hang in there.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Apr 11, 1:05 pm, "Tom" wrote:

Also, I could actually be adding
TOO MUCH starter to the recipe, hence not giving the starter enough food to
chew on.

That is a good observation. A lot of bricks begin with generous
amounts of old, acidified starter g. You want the acid load at the
very end... not at the beginning. Refreshing and expanding keeps the
acid levels low and the critter counts high.

Tom wrote:
The link I was referring to is http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm

I just took a look. His recommendation to feed once a day is too
infrequent im(ns)ho. Twice a day is good. If you have a sluggish
starter, then feeding it 3 times a day, enough to triple it's size, is a
good way to kick start it back to health.

As to 1/2 cup of flour to 1/2 cup of water, that is too much water.
It's like being in the hospital and all they bring you is thin broth.
For 1/2 cup of water, I'd use 3/4 cup of flour. Some people would use
more, but for a beginner I think starter at this level is the easiest to
handle. When you get into thicker starters, they are harder to mix and
to use. When you get into thinner starters, they burn through their
food too fast.

Keep at it, you'll get there!
Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Incontinence Hotline...Can you hold?

Mike Avery wrote:


I just took a look. His recommendation to feed once a day is too
infrequent im(ns)ho. Twice a day is good. If you have a sluggish
starter, then feeding it 3 times a day, enough to triple it's size, is a
good way to kick start it back to health.



At the stated 80F, I can think of at least one starter that needs more
than two feedings per day when healthy.

Ticker /cdp

Tom wrote:

Thanks for the reply, Joe.
When you say 60% hydration on the starter, do you mean that you add 60%
water and 40% flour each time you feed it?

See, I said I was a newbee.... )

Tom
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++
Tom

I see you are getting lots of good information.

Like Mick said the 60% is barkers % were the flour in the recipe is 100% of
itself so if the recipe calls for 100 grams . flour / by 100 is 100%
If recpie calls for 60% water that would be 100 grams. x .60 = 6 grams.
water which is 60% the weight of the flour. The salt would be 2% or 100
x .02 - 2 grams. salt.

I use a scales which make baking easy but not necessary.
I fine weight more precise,or easy to understand the relationship between
two items in the recipe.

For starter I keep going all the time my recipe:

Item Weight Backers%
starter from last mix 8 grams 36.36%
water 12 grams 54.54%
Flour 22 grams 100.00%
Total Starter 42 grams 190.90%

So if you want 42 grams starter you would divide 42 by 190.90 and you would
get 22 grams which would be the amount of flour you would need for the
recipe, then multiply this number "22" by .5454 for the weight of the water
and .3636 for the weight of the yeast ferment from the last starter. this
would be 60% hydrated starter.

Using this recipe and feeding twice a day you will use 308 grams of flour a
week or .6799 lbs. of flour a week @ $2.00 for 5 lbs . of flour your cost
would be $.27 a week for your hobby.

1.) The morning before I bake I feed 11 grams 45% of proof starter,
16 grams 61% water
25 grams 100% flour
52 grams 206% total starter

2.) Evening before I bake I feed 52 grams 17% of proof starter
166 grams 55% water
300 grams 100% flour
518 grams 172% total starter

3.) Morning of bake I mix for 3 minutes 905 grams 57% water
318 grams 20% whole wheat flour
1270grams 80% bread flour

4. )Rest 20 minutes

5.) Add and mix 8 minutes 508 grams 38% proof yeast starter
38 grams 2.4% slat
3040 grams 197.4% total dough

6.) After mix dived, round up, proof @ 88 deg. for 60 minutes

7.) Stretch and fold, proof @ 88 deg. for 50 minutes

8.) Stretch and fold, proof @ 88 deg. for 40 minutes

9.) Shape loafs proof @ 88 deg. for 2~3 hours

10.) Cut tops

11.) Bake @ 440 deg. for 44~48 minutes

*note: You will see I use 508 grams of starter in step (5) which is 10 grams
less then total statter in steep (3). This is because you will use the 10
grams of extra starter to keep your starter which you keep growing all the
time.

Enjoy, Joe Umstead

More good observations! Maybe I won't become a brain surgeon after all ---
to the relief of the local population....


"Charles Perry" wrote in message
thlink.net...
Mike Avery wrote:


I just took a look. His recommendation to feed once a day is too
infrequent im(ns)ho. Twice a day is good. If you have a sluggish
starter, then feeding it 3 times a day, enough to triple it's size, is a
good way to kick start it back to health.



At the stated 80F, I can think of at least one starter that needs more
than two feedings per day when healthy.

Ticker /cdp

"Tom" wrote in message ...
More good observations!

It is amazing how expeditiously the vacuum gets filled.

But maybe it is time for some one to come up with some
concise instructions for managing a starter that could be
posted some place on the Internet, or published in some
book?

Who will be the first to rise to that occasion?

--
Dicky

l, not -l wrote:
Of course, I'm old-school and think it better to read the book than the
CLiff's Notes version; I found that things go much smoother having read the
whole thing for a good foundation, then look up individual issues for a
refresher when a problem arises.

So far, I'm with you.
For those who haven't tried it, take a look,
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdough/starters/ the folks who put the
time and effort into making the FAQ did a good job.

I haven't looked at the FAQ in a while. Perhaps I should. However, the
last time I looked at it, it was filled with largely unedited comments
from a number of people. I do truly believe all these people have had
sourdough success, and I also do truly believe that their opinions about
sourdough should be preserved. The methods most of us seem to be using
in RFS may just be today's fad, and some of the methods used by others
may well make a comeback. But, all that said, I don't recommend the FAQ
for beginners because of the many varied viewpoints in it. I also
suggest a newcomer not spend too much time in RFS because that can also
be confusing as the regulars offer conflicting advice or even argue with
one another.

Instead, I suggest that a newcomer get a single guru, whether that is a
book, a neighbor who bakes, a baking class at a local school, a web site
that seems to make sense, or whatever. And then follow that guru. Once
the beginner has achieved some level of sourdough success, it is time to
branch out and consider how other people do things.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
You can't reach 80
Hale and hearty
By driving 80
Home from
The party
Burma-Shave