On Mar 17, 9:54 am, Jayne Kulikauskas >
wrote:
> I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
> the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
> to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
> that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter....

Jayne,

Here are some numbers for 1 gram of typical "levain" culture...
(from Calvel's Taste of Bread)

Food Laboratory of the National Institute of Agronomic Research in
Dijon:

20 million yeast cells
1.03 billion lactobacilli cells

Western Regional Research Laboratory of the University of California
at Berkeley

15 to 28 million yeast cells
600 million to 2 billion lactobacilli cells

This means that you have way too much starter to maintain in a healthy
state.
What you want is something on the order of 40 grams, or a couple of
tablespoons... then you can ramp it up with 2 or 3 refreshment cycles
to a cup or two and be ready to bake. There is no way you can activate
a liter of starter other than making a least 2 or 3 liters more of it
and then you've enough to make 40 loaves of bread. That may be your
intention... I hope so since that is a lot of goodness to share <g>.

As for making a wheat starter into a rye stater... try this...

1) ensure a small portion of your wheat starter (100 grams or so) is
very active
2) dilute it with another 50 grams of water, stir well
3) let it settle
4) decant the water on top and feed it some rye
5) go from there

There will be enough yeast and LBs in the decanted water to get your
next starter going and you will carry an insignificant amount of wheat
material into the new culture.

Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:

> ...but it assumes starting the
> leaven on rye.) Will changing flours make the yeast and bacteria cultures
> unstable? Do I need to do anything to compensate for this like add the rye
> flour in stages?
>


I would keep your storage leaven with white flour. You can get rye
leaven by taking a small amount (teaspoon or less) and feed it on rye,
doubling up(or more) each feeding until you have the required amount of
rye leaven. If you are going to bake a lot of rye, keep a separate rye
leaven.

Some have suggested that the wheat to rye conversion is a one way trip.
The concern is that a wheat culture converted to rye and then back to
wheat will lose its identity by picking up different critters from the
rye. That is the basis for suggesting a separate rye culture.

Regards,

Charles

I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter. Can I just add rye flour and
water to my starter to make 3 quarts? This would give me 2 quarts of
intermediate leaven for my recipe and another quart as storage leaven.
(This is the procedure suggested in the recipe, but it assumes starting the
leaven on rye.) Will changing flours make the yeast and bacteria cultures
unstable? Do I need to do anything to compensate for this like add the rye
flour in stages? Thanks for any help.

(If people recall my earlier post, here is an update: I still haven't baked
any sourdough bread yet. The masonry heater has been finished and I have
been learning to look after it. I picked up my copy of _Bread Builders_ and
have been reading and rereading it. I have now obtained some starter and
hope to try my first loaf in the next few days.)

--
Jayne

I'd go with smaller amounts, maybe a teaspoon of your wheat starter and
then maybe 3 teaspoons of rye. Once you get it going again, take another
teaspoon and add 5 teaspoons of rye (water accordingly) and get it
going again. Keep this going, until your wheat percentage is way below 1 %.

It may be easier to get a clean rye starter and avoid wheat pollution in
that manner. Try emailing me from my web site (samarttha.net) if you
want to do that.

Your starter characteristics will change with rye, but eventually, it
will become a stable culture if you maintain a routine.

Wheat allergies are often caused by candida albicans infections since
the immune response mechanism to candida (if present from previous or
present candida albicans damage) is triggered by wheat.

A reduced immune response to wheat may be experienced with sourdough
fermentations.

Also, if there is an allergic response to wheat is present, by keeping
the wheat starter and just adding some rye may again trigger the wheat
allergy because there is still wheat in the bread.

Spelt is related to wheat and may be still triggering an allergic response.

Samartha


Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
> I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
> the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
> to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
> that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter. Can I just add rye flour and
> water to my starter to make 3 quarts? This would give me 2 quarts of
> intermediate leaven for my recipe and another quart as storage leaven.
> (This is the procedure suggested in the recipe, but it assumes starting the
> leaven on rye.) Will changing flours make the yeast and bacteria cultures
> unstable? Do I need to do anything to compensate for this like add the rye
> flour in stages? Thanks for any help.
>
> (If people recall my earlier post, here is an update: I still haven't baked
> any sourdough bread yet. The masonry heater has been finished and I have
> been learning to look after it. I picked up my copy of _Bread Builders_ and
> have been reading and rereading it. I have now obtained some starter and
> hope to try my first loaf in the next few days.)
>

Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
> I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
> the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
> to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
> that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter. Can I just add rye flour and
> water to my starter to make 3 quarts? This would give me 2 quarts of
> intermediate leaven for my recipe and another quart as storage leaven.
> (This is the procedure suggested in the recipe, but it assumes starting the
> leaven on rye.) Will changing flours make the yeast and bacteria cultures
> unstable? Do I need to do anything to compensate for this like add the rye
> flour in stages? Thanks for any help.
>
> (If people recall my earlier post, here is an update: I still haven't baked
> any sourdough bread yet. The masonry heater has been finished and I have
> been learning to look after it. I picked up my copy of _Bread Builders_ and
> have been reading and rereading it. I have now obtained some starter and
> hope to try my first loaf in the next few days.)
>
If your friend is really allergic to wheat, you probably should make a
starter that is wholly rye or take a tiny bit of this one and build it
up with rye for a few days so that very little wheat is left.
Ellen

Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
> I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
> the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
> to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
> that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter.

If your friend is *allergic* to wheat, spelt may or may not be
acceptable. (It works well, for me.) But if the problem is celiac sprue,
spelt is generally way too close to modern wheat, and can cause the same
intestinal distress and injury. Oh - I did find that *whole grain* spelt
affected me similarly to wheat, just not as badly.

Basically, be careful, and try a small amount first. Before I started
baking my own, I lived for a while on a commercial white spelt
"sourdough" bread I bought at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's. Claimed to
be wheat-, egg-, and yeast-free, and was a pretty poor substitute for
real bread, but I could at least make a sandwich! You might see if you
can find that, and have your friend try a slice, before investing too
much in baking with spelt.

Dave

On 17 Mar, 16:19, Dave Bell > wrote:
> .. You might see if you
> can find that, and have your friend try a slice, before investing too
> much in baking with spelt.
>
> Dave

Hi Dave, Jayne

my Mum's so sensitive to wheat she can't even have malt vinegar, most
mustards, instant coffees, oats nor barley, etc, just the tiniest
amount of wheat protein is enough to set off old Krakatoa. Most non-
wheat grains are milled in the same mill as regular wheat so she has
to make sure that everything she buys is 'suitable for celiacs'.

Jayne I'm sure you've checked how sensitive your friend is. I agree
with all the others too, by the way, on the quantity of starter you
have, I rarely have more than a cupful and still sometimes have to
throw some away if it's been longer than usual since the last bake. (I
like my starter to be fresh. I find it more reliable that way). If
your friend is quite sensitive to wheat but can take regular rye I'd
take the smallest amount I could of the starter and refresh it quite a
few times over a week to make sure you've got rid of all the wheat.
Wheat destroys the villi in the gut of celiacs so it's more serious
than just getting the squitters.

Jim

On 17 Mar 2007 07:32:24 -0700, Will wrote:

> On Mar 17, 9:54 am, Jayne Kulikauskas >
> wrote:
>> I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
>> the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
>> to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
>> that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter....
>
> Jayne,
>
> Here are some numbers for 1 gram of typical "levain" culture...
> (from Calvel's Taste of Bread)
>
> Food Laboratory of the National Institute of Agronomic Research in
> Dijon:
>
> 20 million yeast cells
> 1.03 billion lactobacilli cells
>
> Western Regional Research Laboratory of the University of California
> at Berkeley
>
> 15 to 28 million yeast cells
> 600 million to 2 billion lactobacilli cells
>
> This means that you have way too much starter to maintain in a healthy
> state.

The recipe comes from _Nourishing Traditions_ by Sally Fallon. She gives
instructions for making a non-refrigerated starter that is fed a cup of
flour a day and used once a week. This is the starter the recipe calls
for. Is it possible that a leaven kept under those conditions would have
far fewer yeast and lactobacilli cells than is typical?

At any rate, since I did not make my starter following her instructions but
presumably have a typical one, I better not use that recipe. Could you (or
anyone) recommend another spelt-rye sourdough recipe?

[...]
> As for making a wheat starter into a rye stater... try this...
>
> 1) ensure a small portion of your wheat starter (100 grams or so) is
> very active
> 2) dilute it with another 50 grams of water, stir well
> 3) let it settle
> 4) decant the water on top and feed it some rye
> 5) go from there
>
> There will be enough yeast and LBs in the decanted water to get your
> next starter going and you will carry an insignificant amount of wheat
> material into the new culture.

Since I have so much starter I am going to try this method as well as the
other suggestion. Thank you.

--
Jayne

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:32:27 GMT, Charles Perry wrote:

[...]
> Some have suggested that the wheat to rye conversion is a one way trip.
> The concern is that a wheat culture converted to rye and then back to
> wheat will lose its identity by picking up different critters from the
> rye. That is the basis for suggesting a separate rye culture.

I don't have any immediate plans to bake any wheat breads. I'm hoping to
master a decent spelt-rye (which may take a while) and then I'd like to try
a rye volkornsbrot. I only expect to be using a rye starter in the near
future.

I do like the idea of having the option open of doing wheat breads some
day, though. I've read about freezing starter. Is that something easy
enough for a beginner like myself to do?

--
Jayne

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:55:56 -0600, Samartha Deva wrote:

> I'd go with smaller amounts, maybe a teaspoon of your wheat starter and
> then maybe 3 teaspoons of rye. Once you get it going again, take another
> teaspoon and add 5 teaspoons of rye (water accordingly) and get it
> going again. Keep this going, until your wheat percentage is way below 1 %.

I'm going to try both this technique and the one Will suggested.

> It may be easier to get a clean rye starter and avoid wheat pollution in
> that manner. Try emailing me from my web site (samarttha.net) if you
> want to do that.

My friend isn't that sensitive to wheat to make that necessary. But thank
you for the offer.

> Your starter characteristics will change with rye, but eventually, it
> will become a stable culture if you maintain a routine.

Are there likely to be problems with baking with it before it stabilizes?
Is there anything I should be watching out for?

--
Jayne

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:19:26 GMT, Dave Bell wrote:

> Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:
>> I have been given a wheat-based starter. I have about 1 liter of it. One of
>> the people I'm baking for is allergic to wheat so I would like to switch it
>> to rye. I have a recipe for a spelt-rye sourdough bread that I want to try
>> that calls for 2 quarts of rye-based starter.
>
> If your friend is *allergic* to wheat, spelt may or may not be
> acceptable. (It works well, for me.) But if the problem is celiac sprue,
> spelt is generally way too close to modern wheat, and can cause the same
> intestinal distress and injury. Oh - I did find that *whole grain* spelt
> affected me similarly to wheat, just not as badly.

I'm pretty sure that it isn't celiac sprue because she eats things with
spelt and kamut.

> Basically, be careful, and try a small amount first. Before I started
> baking my own, I lived for a while on a commercial white spelt
> "sourdough" bread I bought at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's. Claimed to
> be wheat-, egg-, and yeast-free, and was a pretty poor substitute for
> real bread, but I could at least make a sandwich! You might see if you
> can find that, and have your friend try a slice, before investing too
> much in baking with spelt.

I know that she eats breads made with spelt and doesn't seem to have
problems with them.

--
Jayne

On 17 Mar 2007 12:41:22 -0700, TG wrote:

[...]
> my Mum's so sensitive to wheat she can't even have malt vinegar, most
> mustards, instant coffees, oats nor barley, etc, just the tiniest
> amount of wheat protein is enough to set off old Krakatoa. Most non-
> wheat grains are milled in the same mill as regular wheat so she has
> to make sure that everything she buys is 'suitable for celiacs'.

My friend is nowhere near that sensitive. She even eats wheat on rare
occasions. It does upset her stomach though, so she avoids it.

--
Jayne

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:29:47 GMT, ellen wickberg wrote:

[...]
> If your friend is really allergic to wheat, you probably should make a
> starter that is wholly rye or take a tiny bit of this one and build it
> up with rye for a few days so that very little wheat is left.

That's what it sounds like from various responses. I think that the trace
of wheat that will be left shouldn't be a problem for her.

--
Jayne

Jayne Kulikauskas wrote:

> I've read about freezing starter. Is that something easy
> enough for a beginner like myself to do?


Yes.


Regards,

Charles

On Mar 17, 7:25 pm, Jayne Kulikauskas >
wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:32:27 GMT, Charles Perry wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Some have suggested that the wheat to rye conversion is a one way trip.
> > The concern is that a wheat culture converted to rye and then back to
> > wheat will lose its identity by picking up different critters from the
> > rye. That is the basis for suggesting a separate rye culture.
>
> I don't have any immediate plans to bake any wheat breads. I'm hoping to
> master a decent spelt-rye (which may take a while) and then I'd like to try
> a rye volkornsbrot. I only expect to be using a rye starter in the near
> future.
>
> I do like the idea of having the option open of doing wheat breads some
> day, though. I've read about freezing starter. Is that something easy
> enough for a beginner like myself to do?
>
> --
> Jayne

Jayne,

I wish you the best of luck. It is good to be ambitious. That said...
it might make sense to work with regular white flour or perhaps white
flour blended with rye or spelt for a while until you get the feel for
levain. And also... until you get the feel for those grains. Full bore
rye makes wonderful bread. But it is a real challenge. It is sticky,
it is hard to handle, it does not rise (much), gives no fermenting/
proofing signals, and on and on... Spelt on the other hand is dry. The
berry is hard, the hull is very dense. The flour, unless you are
buying highly refined stuff, makes an inelastic dough... and so on.
All of which is to say... rye and spelt are tough customers.

You may find that your friend is able to eat naturally leavened breads
comfortably. My son is sensitive to wheat. A regular yeast, wheat
bread makes him unhappy... but he is fine with a well ripened SD wheat
bread. There's something about a long ferment... who knows precisely
what... but I'd bet most folks who post here would agree: SD bread is
easier to digest.

On 18 Mar 2007 12:10:49 -0700, Will wrote:

[...]
> Jayne,
>
> I wish you the best of luck. It is good to be ambitious. That said...
> it might make sense to work with regular white flour or perhaps white
> flour blended with rye or spelt for a while until you get the feel for
> levain. And also... until you get the feel for those grains. Full bore
> rye makes wonderful bread. But it is a real challenge. It is sticky,
> it is hard to handle, it does not rise (much), gives no fermenting/
> proofing signals, and on and on... Spelt on the other hand is dry. The
> berry is hard, the hull is very dense. The flour, unless you are
> buying highly refined stuff, makes an inelastic dough... and so on.
> All of which is to say... rye and spelt are tough customers.

Maybe that explains why I found it so difficult to find a spelt-rye recipe.
I gave up on looking for one online and just took a basic sourdough recipe,
used my new rye starter (thanks to all for the advice on how to do make
this) where it called for starter and added spelt where it said to add
flour. I decided that trying to get the timing right for using the masonry
oven was making things too complicated so I would just use my electric
oven. However, the bread ended up ready to bake just as the masonry oven
was at the right temperature so I stuck it in after all.

I wasn't expecting much from this method so I was pleasantly surprised that
my first loaf ended up edible (by people, not just the chickens). While it
still needs work, it was reasonably close to what I was aiming for. Of
course, this may have been beginner's luck. It remains to be seen if I can
consistently produce edible bread. Still, my first loaf has boosted my
confidence.

> You may find that your friend is able to eat naturally leavened breads
> comfortably. My son is sensitive to wheat. A regular yeast, wheat
> bread makes him unhappy... but he is fine with a well ripened SD wheat
> bread. There's something about a long ferment... who knows precisely
> what... but I'd bet most folks who post here would agree: SD bread is
> easier to digest.

I have read about how much more healthy and digestible SD bread is. This
was what first attracted my interest in it.

--
Jayne