Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 07:28:42 -0500, Shawn Hirn wrote:
Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

It is because in the areas where lots of chain restaurants exist,
5-10 years ago they were just undeveloped fields. There are no locally
owned restaurants. If you get out to newly developed areas in the northeast,
such as those that were farmland 5 years ago, you'll find the same
proportion of chain restaurants. And it is not a good thing.

Shawn Hirn wrote:
Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

I'm sure Tim will have lots to say about this, but I'm sure it has to do with
how many wets there are in an area.

I dont know exactly in the Northeast you live...but where I live everyone is very habitual. If there were a new food chain to come out, I'd doubt they'd go to it anyway.

__________________
All Recipes.com | Chocolate Gifts

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...
Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

Visit Texas sometime. You'll be blown away by all the fast food places
there.

Shawn Hirn wrote:
Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
no frame of reference.

There are plenty of local burger places in my area (Newark/Elizabeth)
where you can get a quick, inexpensive fried and flattened burger to go,
at prices that compete with the major chains. From my experience you
can find some pretty awesome, cheap Mexican takeout in New Brunswick
where there's a large Hispanic population, once you get away from the
college neighborhoods. Once, while driving through PA, I stopped
somewhere near Bethlehem and saw what appeared to be a hot dog and
donuts restaurant. And they had a drive-thru, which according to the
Dialogues of Saukretes makes it a certified fast food establishment.
So, I tend to believe we have a nice variety of fast food in this
region, but you have to go digging around for it.

--
Albert Worschey

In article , Albert
Worschey wrote:

Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
no frame of reference.

To the list of good reasons submitted so far, I would add two others:

1. Economy in decline in the Northeast. Fast food franchises have
tended to expand rapidly in booming areas, not declining refinery or
steel towns.

2. The toll road system. It's been awhile since I was in a car in
Penn/NJ/NY, but my recollection was of a lot of toll roads, with
limited access points.

Fast food places grow like mushrooms at the onramps and offramps and
cloverleafs of our freeway system. In-N-Out, for example, almost always
tries to find a location where there large yellow and red signs are
visible from a mile away and where motorists can decide to exist at the
offramp, grab a burger, and get back on the highway.

This is possible to do on toll roads, but at much higher cost and
hassle. (I suppose the fast food chains could cut deals to locate on
the actual toll road...I recall that this is how Howard Johnson
operated. Makes it hard for newer FF chains to do the same.)

In California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, places I am well
familiar with, there are very few toll roads. (One I know of is in
Southern California, linking San Juan Bautista to Irvine, about a
20-mile private stretch. And, sure enough, limited access points and no
clusters of fast food chains and gas stations at the access points.)

In Florida, there are both freeways ("free") and toll roads. On one
long toll road from Fort Lauderdale down to the tip, we passed no fast
food places at all. On the neighboring highway, hundreds of them.


I don't think this is the primary reason for fewer FF places, just
something to add to the list.


--Tim May

Tim May wrote:
In article , Albert
Worschey wrote:

Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
no frame of reference.

To the list of good reasons submitted so far, I would add two others:

1. Economy in decline in the Northeast. Fast food franchises have
tended to expand rapidly in booming areas, not declining refinery or
steel towns.

2. The toll road system. It's been awhile since I was in a car in
Penn/NJ/NY, but my recollection was of a lot of toll roads, with
limited access points.

Fast food places grow like mushrooms at the onramps and offramps and
cloverleafs of our freeway system. In-N-Out, for example, almost always
tries to find a location where there large yellow and red signs are
visible from a mile away and where motorists can decide to exist at the
offramp, grab a burger, and get back on the highway.

What if they decide not to exist?


This is possible to do on toll roads, but at much higher cost and
hassle. (I suppose the fast food chains could cut deals to locate on
the actual toll road...I recall that this is how Howard Johnson
operated. Makes it hard for newer FF chains to do the same.)

In California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, places I am well
familiar with, there are very few toll roads. (One I know of is in
Southern California, linking San Juan Bautista to Irvine, about a
20-mile private stretch. And, sure enough, limited access points and no
clusters of fast food chains and gas stations at the access points.)

In Florida, there are both freeways ("free") and toll roads. On one
long toll road from Fort Lauderdale down to the tip, we passed no fast
food places at all. On the neighboring highway, hundreds of them.


There's fast-food every 40 miles, or so, on the FL Turnpike and the
access is much easier than exiting off of I95 or I75.


I don't think this is the primary reason for fewer FF places, just
something to add to the list.


--Tim May

Dan wrote:
Tim May wrote:
In article , Albert
Worschey wrote:

Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself.
You're right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area.
It's tough reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco,
JitB, etc. with no frame of reference.

To the list of good reasons submitted so far, I would add two others:

1. Economy in decline in the Northeast. Fast food franchises have
tended to expand rapidly in booming areas, not declining refinery or
steel towns.
2. The toll road system. It's been awhile since I was in a car in
Penn/NJ/NY, but my recollection was of a lot of toll roads, with
limited access points.

Fast food places grow like mushrooms at the onramps and offramps and
cloverleafs of our freeway system. In-N-Out, for example, almost always
tries to find a location where there large yellow and red signs are
visible from a mile away and where motorists can decide to exist at the
offramp, grab a burger, and get back on the highway.

What if they decide not to exist?

They can exist into the trees along the highway.

This is possible to do on toll roads, but at much higher cost and
hassle. (I suppose the fast food chains could cut deals to locate on
the actual toll road...I recall that this is how Howard Johnson
operated. Makes it hard for newer FF chains to do the same.)

In California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, places I am well
familiar with, there are very few toll roads. (One I know of is in
Southern California, linking San Juan Bautista to Irvine, about a
20-mile private stretch. And, sure enough, limited access points and no
clusters of fast food chains and gas stations at the access points.)

In Florida, there are both freeways ("free") and toll roads. On one
long toll road from Fort Lauderdale down to the tip, we passed no fast
food places at all. On the neighboring highway, hundreds of them.


There's fast-food every 40 miles, or so, on the FL Turnpike and the
access is much easier than exiting off of I95 or I75.


This is also true of the toll roads in NJ and the PA turnpike. Every
40-50 miles or so there's a service area along the road (usually one in
each direction or on median between them) that invariably has a contract
with one or more fast food outlets. But Tim makes a good observation
regarding non-tolled highways. Routes 1 and 22, just to name two here,
are untolled smorgssbords in every direction. But as for fast food,
it's mostly the same three major chains Shawn mentioned repeating
themselves every few miles, with an Arby's here and there and maybe a
couple Checkers drive-thrus.



--
Albert Worschey

On Jan 9, 8:15 am, Golden California Girls
wrote:
Shawn Hirn wrote:
Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

I'm sure Tim will have lots to say about this, but I'm sure it has to do with
how many wets there are in an area.

The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
far between.

The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? The lone
Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.

On Jan 9, 5:59*pm, wrote:

The variety of fast food burger places in the bay area is not amazing.
I've never seen a Sonic, a Whataburger, or a Fat Burger here. In-n-Out
took a half-century to move north. And Carl's Jr. owns Hardee's.
Further, we have no White Castles, and even Dairy Queens are few and
far between.

The part of the west that we live in is not blessed with fast food
chains in general. Fried chicken joints are in short supply; hating
KFC I would drive to East SJ to get Church's. Luckily now there are a
few PopeYes outposts. Sometimes nothing satisfies like deep fried
food: Where are the Long John Silvers, the Arthur Treachers? *The lone
Dunkin' Donuts went out of business.

I enjoyed deep fried oysters today for lunch at Cook's in Menlo Park.
Also, had a mini crab louie. Not cheap, though... $15.

Karen

In article ,
Albert Worschey wrote:

Shawn Hirn wrote:
Something I have been wondering about is, why do the western states, at
least California and Nevada have so many more different fast food
restaurants then we do in Pennsylvania, New York, and New Jersey?

For example, in California, there are tons of fast food faux Mexican
places such as Del Taco, Polo Loco, etc. while in the northeast, the
only one I can think of is Taco Bell. The variety of fast food burger
places out west is amazing. Just a few off the top of my had: In-N-Out,
Fat Burger, Whataburger, Sonic, Burger King, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Jack
In the Box, Hardee's, and Wendays. In my area, its only Wendy's, McD's,
and BK. For fast food chicken, I think we're pretty much on par east and
west coasts, but for burger and Mexican joints, there seems like a lot
of untapped opportunity here in the northeast.

I wonder why the variety of fast food places is so much better in the
west coast than east coast? Do any of you have any ideas?

Good reasons suggested so far. I've also heard that many of them
started out there, though I haven't looked up the data myself. You're
right though about the limited selection in the NJ-PA area. It's tough
reading all these discussions (in aff-f) about Del Taco, JitB, etc. with
no frame of reference.

There are plenty of local burger places in my area (Newark/Elizabeth)
where you can get a quick, inexpensive fried and flattened burger to go,
at prices that compete with the major chains. From my experience you
can find some pretty awesome, cheap Mexican takeout in New Brunswick
where there's a large Hispanic population, once you get away from the
college neighborhoods. Once, while driving through PA, I stopped
somewhere near Bethlehem and saw what appeared to be a hot dog and
donuts restaurant. And they had a drive-thru, which according to the
Dialogues of Saukretes makes it a certified fast food establishment.
So, I tend to believe we have a nice variety of fast food in this
region, but you have to go digging around for it.

You might be right. We also have great diners, which I don't believe
exist at all in the western states. Some diners have great burgers, but
they are definitely not fast food.

In article , Shawn
Hirn wrote:



You might be right. We also have great diners, which I don't believe
exist at all in the western states. Some diners have great burgers, but
they are definitely not fast food.

We have diners. Even a chain version of them called "Margie's Diner,"
seen in many of the same locations In-N-Out is located.

(And such canonical Western places as Denny's, Sambo's, and IHOP all
started in California. They are essentially diners, albeit not in
railroad cars.)

There are also authentic "train car" kinds of diners in several big
cities, including ones in downtown San Francisco. For exactly the same
reason as on the east coast, these tend to be downscale places.

A Santa Rosa restaurant owner even has a show on "Food Network" called
"Diners, Dives, and Drive-Ins," where he visits various places. He
recently visited several diners in California.

And also the Felafel Drive-In in San Jose, a place I started going to
in the 1970s.

BTW, there are also diners out in places like Colorado, Wyoming, Utah,
etc.

Tim May

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:11:22 -0800, Tim May wrote:

1. Economy in decline in the Northeast.

Have you taken a look at the census tables of average income by state?

-- Larry

Tim May wrote:
In article , Shawn
Hirn wrote:


You might be right. We also have great diners, which I don't believe
exist at all in the western states. Some diners have great burgers, but
they are definitely not fast food.

We have diners. Even a chain version of them called "Margie's Diner,"
seen in many of the same locations In-N-Out is located.

(And such canonical Western places as Denny's, Sambo's, and IHOP all
started in California. They are essentially diners, albeit not in
railroad cars.)

There are also authentic "train car" kinds of diners in several big
cities, including ones in downtown San Francisco. For exactly the same
reason as on the east coast, these tend to be downscale places.


We still have quite a few "railcar" diners around here (most of them
manufactured in Asbury Park, NJ in the mid-20th century), and they're
also typically downscale. But for what they lack in class they make up
for in speed and (usually) taste. There's one about 3 miles from my
home that operates 24 hours and serves a very tasty griddle burger (I'd
estimate it at 3-4 oz) on a fresh hard roll in under 2 minutes for about
$2. They're part of a once prevalent local chain that has been dying
off and mutating since the 1970's. This may have happened elsewhere as
well, but in northern NJ quite a few railcar diners and greasy spoons
seemed to want to cash in on the White Castle craze when it took off.
So we have a lot of one-offs and small chains called "White
Something-or-other", usually tucked away in neighborhoods and away from
major highways. The burgers seem to have an ancestry in the White
Castle formula but now trump WC in taste and value. The White Manna in
Hackensack make sliders worthy of a 50 mile pilgrimage. Of course, it
also helps that White Castle's burgers have gone downhill since their
golden days.


--
Albert Worschey