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Preserving (rec.food.preserving) Devoted to the discussion of recipes, equipment, and techniques of food preservation. Techniques that should be discussed in this forum include canning, freezing, dehydration, pickling, smoking, salting, and distilling.

Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 15-07-2008, 05:36 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 29
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

I've done some canning with pint and half pint jars. Haven't killed or
sickened anyone yet. Recently a friend gave me a dozen quart size jars
and I'd like to can some salsa in them. Is the jar size one of those
aspects of canning recipes that can be unsafe to change? Should I look
for a different salsa recipe that specifies quart jars in the end
step? I really don't want to give anyone botulism for Xmas.

I realize the amount of air space or whatever you call it at top of
jar might need to be different for quart jars than for pints. Is there
a rule for that, or does it depend on exactly what kind of food you're
processing?

Thanks for your help!
Ads
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2008, 08:40 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 172
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?


"Deidzoeb" wrote in message
...
I've done some canning with pint and half pint jars. Haven't killed or
sickened anyone yet. Recently a friend gave me a dozen quart size jars
and I'd like to can some salsa in them. Is the jar size one of those
aspects of canning recipes that can be unsafe to change?


Without adjusting the process time, yes.

Should I look
for a different salsa recipe that specifies quart jars in the end
step? I really don't want to give anyone botulism for Xmas.


Your going to have to correct me if your favorite salsa recipie is
different, but most of them I've seen spec tomato chunks. In short,
the finished product has significantly sized chunks of tomato in
it. ANY of these recipies should be pressure canned regardless
of any acidification that the recipie may specify or regardless of
any boiling water canning that is specified. Tomatos are
now known to be borderline low-acid, and the problem is that
in a recipie where they survive intact, you can have regions within
the tomato chunk that the acidification hasn't penetrated.

There's a botulism story floating around on the Internet where
2 family members ended up in an Iron Lung for a week
while their systems recovered, and the health department
decanted and tested every one of their 50 quarts of spaghetti
sauce they had boiling water canned, and found botulism
toxin in only 3 of them. Their sauces had ground hamburger
in them. The thought was that the toxin was created in
meat chunks and migrated to the surrounding areas.

With pressure canning, the process times are generally very,
very long. Read the manual that came with your pressure canner.
It will spec times for classifications of foods, these should
always trump whatever the recipie specs.

The more important issue, though, is convenience of the
recipient. You may like eating salsa a lot and could maybe
eat up a quart jar in a week, around here we use salsa only
for dipping potato chips into, and a pint is a 6 month supply
for us.

This is why I do most of my jam canning in 1/2
pint jars. I have several jam varieties I can. If I put them in
pints, I would get tired of that variety before finishing off the
jar, so I would end up with multiple open jam jars in the
refrigerator.

I realize the amount of air space or whatever you call it at top of
jar might need to be different for quart jars than for pints. Is there
a rule for that, or does it depend on exactly what kind of food you're
processing?


I have found it really doesen't make much difference. I can applesauce
in quarts because when we open a quart of applesauce we eat it
within a couple days, and I just leave the same headspace as in 1/2
pint jars. However I do leave a lot more headspace in jars when I
can turkey soup in the pressure canner.

Ted


  #3 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2008, 09:04 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 146
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

(excellent post about saftey....)

The more important issue, though, is convenience of the
recipient. You may like eating salsa a lot and could maybe
eat up a quart jar in a week, around here we use salsa only
for dipping potato chips into, and a pint is a 6 month supply
for us.


Even for we who are realtively heavy salsa eaters, a jar of commerical salsa
(probably a pint) is about a week's supply. But we "cycle", some weeks
the chips get eaten with salsa, sometimes my kids just snack them plain.

Occasionaly the jars mirgrate to the back of the refigerator and are not found
for weeks. They loose flavor and eventually become "biology experiments".

This is why I do most of my jam canning in 1/2
pint jars. I have several jam varieties I can. If I put them in
pints, I would get tired of that variety before finishing off the
jar, so I would end up with multiple open jam jars in the
refrigerator.


That is signifcantly different. Unless it's low sugar jam, it will not
mold or develop any other problems if left closed in the refrigerator.
I would not say the same for salsa.

I think Ted's right. Unless the people you are going to give the salsa
are really into it, or have a very large family, I would stick to the
small jars.

There's also a matter of taste, while people who for example like strawberry
jam will eat almost any strawberry jam you give them, individual taste in
salsa varries. In my own family one likes mild, one likes medium and two
like hot. You can always "tollerate" mild, or add tabasco to it if you
are a hot eater, but you can't "unheat" it if you are not.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2008, 07:12 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 320
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

Your going to have to correct me if your favorite salsa recipie is
different, but most of them I've seen spec tomato chunks. In short,
the finished product has significantly sized chunks of tomato in
it. ANY of these recipies should be pressure canned regardless
of any acidification that the recipie may specify or regardless of
any boiling water canning that is specified. Tomatos are
now known to be borderline low-acid, and the problem is that
in a recipie where they survive intact, you can have regions within
the tomato chunk that the acidification hasn't penetrated.


I'm going to disagree with you here, Ted. There are salsa recipes that are
safe for BWB canning at the NCHFP website, some (most) of which call for
chopped tomatoes. I can't imagine those folks would leave any recipes up at
their site if they weren't sure they were safe.

Think of the tomatoes in salsa as being similar to the cucumber chunks or
slices in pickles. One-day recipes for pickles call for a significant
amount of vinegar. So do safe for BWB salsas.

Anny


  #5 (permalink)  
Old 16-07-2008, 11:51 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 29
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

On Jul 16, 3:40*am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
"Deidzoeb" wrote in message

...

I've done some canning with pint and half pint jars. Haven't killed or
sickened anyone yet. Recently a friend gave me a dozen quart size jars
and I'd like to can some salsa in them. Is the jar size one of those
aspects of canning recipes that can be unsafe to change?


Without adjusting the process time, yes.

Should I look
for a different salsa recipe that specifies quart jars in the end
step? I really don't want to give anyone botulism for Xmas.


Your going to have to correct me if your favorite salsa recipie is
different, but most of them I've seen spec tomato chunks. *In short,
the finished product has significantly sized chunks of tomato in
it. *ANY of these recipies should be pressure canned regardless
of any acidification that the recipie may specify or regardless of
any boiling water canning that is specified. *Tomatos are
now known to be borderline low-acid, and the problem is that
in a recipie where they survive intact, you can have regions within
the tomato chunk that the acidification hasn't penetrated.


I've been using a boiling water canning recipe for tomato salsa tested
and published by the USDA:
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_sal..._tomatoes.html

I guess I'll have to look in to buying a pressure cooker finally.
That'll be the next question I post on here.

The more important issue, though, is convenience of the
recipient. *You may like eating salsa a lot and could maybe
eat up a quart jar in a week, around here we use salsa only
for dipping potato chips into, and a pint is a 6 month supply
for us.

This is why I do most of my jam canning in 1/2
pint jars. *I have several jam varieties I can. *If I put them in
pints, I would get tired of that variety before finishing off the
jar, so I would end up with multiple open jam jars in the
refrigerator.


Good point. Maybe I'll continuing canning them as pints and keep the
quart jars for some other project.

  #6 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 12:15 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 3,906
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

Deidzoeb wrote:
On Jul 16, 3:40 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
"Deidzoeb" wrote in message

...

I've done some canning with pint and half pint jars. Haven't killed or
sickened anyone yet. Recently a friend gave me a dozen quart size jars
and I'd like to can some salsa in them. Is the jar size one of those
aspects of canning recipes that can be unsafe to change?

Without adjusting the process time, yes.

Should I look
for a different salsa recipe that specifies quart jars in the end
step? I really don't want to give anyone botulism for Xmas.

Your going to have to correct me if your favorite salsa recipie is
different, but most of them I've seen spec tomato chunks. In short,
the finished product has significantly sized chunks of tomato in
it. ANY of these recipies should be pressure canned regardless
of any acidification that the recipie may specify or regardless of
any boiling water canning that is specified. Tomatos are
now known to be borderline low-acid, and the problem is that
in a recipie where they survive intact, you can have regions within
the tomato chunk that the acidification hasn't penetrated.


I've been using a boiling water canning recipe for tomato salsa tested
and published by the USDA:
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_sal..._tomatoes.html

I guess I'll have to look in to buying a pressure cooker finally.
That'll be the next question I post on here.

The more important issue, though, is convenience of the
recipient. You may like eating salsa a lot and could maybe
eat up a quart jar in a week, around here we use salsa only
for dipping potato chips into, and a pint is a 6 month supply
for us.

This is why I do most of my jam canning in 1/2
pint jars. I have several jam varieties I can. If I put them in
pints, I would get tired of that variety before finishing off the
jar, so I would end up with multiple open jam jars in the
refrigerator.


Good point. Maybe I'll continuing canning them as pints and keep the
quart jars for some other project.

I use a number of quart jars for storing dry products, oats, bulgar, etc.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 09:44 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 172
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?


"Anny Middon" wrote in message
...
"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

Your going to have to correct me if your favorite salsa recipie is
different, but most of them I've seen spec tomato chunks. In short,
the finished product has significantly sized chunks of tomato in
it. ANY of these recipies should be pressure canned regardless
of any acidification that the recipie may specify or regardless of
any boiling water canning that is specified. Tomatos are
now known to be borderline low-acid, and the problem is that
in a recipie where they survive intact, you can have regions within
the tomato chunk that the acidification hasn't penetrated.


I'm going to disagree with you here, Ted. There are salsa recipes that

are
safe for BWB canning at the NCHFP website, some (most) of which call for
chopped tomatoes. I can't imagine those folks would leave any recipes up

at
their site if they weren't sure they were safe.


I did not want to get into this but I see that I will have to. The
following
tomato varieties are known to be low acid: Ace, Ace 55VF, Beefmaster Hybrid,
Big Early Hybrid, Big Girl, Big Set, Burpee VF Hybrid, Cal Ace, Delicious,
Fireball, Garden State, Royal Chico, and San Marzano. There are others
as well. The majority of the more traditional home-garden raised tomatos
are not low acid, however.

The USDA recommends pressure canning for tomato products. Their
published recipies ALSO recommend acidification of tomato products
EVEN IF pressure canned. See the following:

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...n_guide_03.pdf

"...Recommendation: Use of a pressure canner will result in a higher
quality and more nutritious canned tomato products..."

Note that the USDA guide does not recommend -against- BWB
canning of tomato products (like Salsa). They merely recommend
pressure canning instead of BWB canning of tomato products.

In other words, they are going to wait until the jury is in, you might
say.

The entire guide is up he

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...ions_usda.html

Think of the tomatoes in salsa as being similar to the cucumber chunks or
slices in pickles. One-day recipes for pickles call for a significant
amount of vinegar. So do safe for BWB salsas.


USDA recommends citric acid or lemon juice specifically, instead of
vinegar, because of taste.

The NCHFP site does have a specific blurb about Salsa, they explicitly
exclude low-acid pressure-canned Salsa recipies from their list, and
they also mention that there are other ingredients that must be tested.
Basically they are saying that if your going to go the acidification route,
then while you can reduce Ph with adding acid, not all ingredients are
permeable to the acid that you add, that is why they recommend against
any Salsa recipies they haven't tested the ingredients list on.

Personally I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Pressure canners
are cheap and easy to operate, I have 2 of them both of which cost
less than $10 from Goodwill. (granted, I kept an eye out for them and
it took a while before they showed up) If you pressure can your Salsa
you can use whatever recipie you like, acid or no acid, just as long as
you pressure can it for the time called for, for the longest time ingredient
in it.

Ted


  #8 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 11:14 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 146
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Personally I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Pressure canners
are cheap and easy to operate, I have 2 of them both of which cost
less than $10 from Goodwill. (granted, I kept an eye out for them and
it took a while before they showed up) If you pressure can your Salsa
you can use whatever recipie you like, acid or no acid, just as long as
you pressure can it for the time called for, for the longest time ingredient
in it.


Not everywhere. Outside of the U.S. they are hard to find and expensive
to import. Replacment parts are impossible to get except if ordered
from the U.S. which often costs 2 to 3 times the price.

If you happen to be in the U.S. and have the time, money and space, I suggest
that you follow Ted's advice and keep an eye out for pressure canners and
jars at thrift shops. While you are at it, stock on replacement parts if
needed (rings, weights, etc) and single use items such as lids and bands.

While almost all single use jars such as mayo or peanut butter sold here
have gone to plastic bottles, the lids still fit the narrow mouth Mason
type jars. If you remove the paper liners they make great covers. They fit
nicely over the sealed jars protecting the lids from prying fingers
and accidents. If you ask around, you probably can get them for free. :-)

While you are at it, look for Sunbeam mixmasters. They are IMHO still good
mixers and are so cheap that if they break you can throw them out if you
can't get them fixed. The trick is to find bowls, which are often seperated
from the mixers at thrift stores and yard sales.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 05:16 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 320
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...


I did not want to get into this but I see that I will have to. The
following
tomato varieties are known to be low acid: Ace, Ace 55VF, Beefmaster
Hybrid,
Big Early Hybrid, Big Girl, Big Set, Burpee VF Hybrid, Cal Ace, Delicious,
Fireball, Garden State, Royal Chico, and San Marzano. There are others
as well. The majority of the more traditional home-garden raised tomatos
are not low acid, however.

The USDA recommends pressure canning for tomato products. Their
published recipies ALSO recommend acidification of tomato products
EVEN IF pressure canned. See the following:

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...n_guide_03.pdf

"...Recommendation: Use of a pressure canner will result in a higher
quality and more nutritious canned tomato products..."


I have seen the publication -- which is available from the NCHFP which I
mentioned in my post.

Note that the reason the publication suggest pressure canning is not a food
safety issue, but based on the quality of the finished product.

Note that the USDA guide does not recommend -against- BWB
canning of tomato products (like Salsa). They merely recommend
pressure canning instead of BWB canning of tomato products.

In other words, they are going to wait until the jury is in, you might
say.


I don't thing that's what is going on. I think they have found that
pressure canned tomato items are of a higher quality and vitamin content
than BWB processed ones -- not that they are waiting to see if there are
safety problems with the BWB salsa.


The entire guide is up he

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...ions_usda.html


USDA recommends citric acid or lemon juice specifically, instead of
vinegar, because of taste.


Look at the salsa recipe on page 3-16 of the publication. You will see that
it specifically calls for vinegar.


The NCHFP site does have a specific blurb about Salsa, they explicitly
exclude low-acid pressure-canned Salsa recipies from their list, and
they also mention that there are other ingredients that must be tested.
Basically they are saying that if your going to go the acidification
route,
then while you can reduce Ph with adding acid, not all ingredients are
permeable to the acid that you add, that is why they recommend against
any Salsa recipies they haven't tested the ingredients list on.


Yes -- but that doesn't mean that the salsa recipes they include are in any
way unsafe.

Personally I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Pressure
canners
are cheap and easy to operate, I have 2 of them both of which cost
less than $10 from Goodwill. (granted, I kept an eye out for them and
it took a while before they showed up) If you pressure can your Salsa
you can use whatever recipie you like, acid or no acid, just as long as
you pressure can it for the time called for, for the longest time
ingredient
in it.


I have a pressure canner, and I use it for low-acid items I can, not
including salsa -- for which I use tested recipes and BWB processing. I
find it so much more of a hassle to use, and the BWB processing so much
easier, that I do BWB whenever it's safe to do so.

In case you are wondering why I find pressure canning to be more of a
hassle, it's primarily related to the amount of time it takes. I fill the
jars, put them in the pressure canner and put on the lid. It takes at least
five minutes (and I'm betting it's more like 10) for the water in the canner
to come to a boil. Then steam has to be expelled -- for my canner, for 7
minutes. The the pressure thingie goes on. Then I have to wait for the
pressure to reach the right level -- another 5 or 10 minutes. Then it's 10
minutes of processing (for tomatoes). Then at least an hour for the canner
to cool down so I can remove the jars.

Total time -- at least an hour and 22 minutes.

I tend to do canning marathon session where I can 3 or 4 products at a time.
When I BWB can I prepare the next item while jars are being processed.
Frequently it's less than half an hour between removing the first set of
jars from the BWB and putting the next set in.

Anny


  #10 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 07:22 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 988
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

Deidzoeb wrote:

I guess I'll have to look in to buying a pressure cooker finally.
That'll be the next question I post on here.


A pressure *cooker* is different than a pressure *canner.*

I don't think you need to do this with your salsa. That's a tested
recipe you're using.

B/
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 08:29 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

In article ,
Brian Mailman wrote:

Deidzoeb wrote:

I guess I'll have to look in to buying a pressure cooker finally.
That'll be the next question I post on here.


A pressure *cooker* is different than a pressure *canner.*

I don't think you need to do this with your salsa. That's a tested
recipe you're using.


And speaking of that, I just bought myself one of those Fagor pressure
cooker/canners. It's 10 quart stainless so I can use it as a regular
pot or for small batch steam pressure or BWB canning. You can do 4
pints which is just perfect for some things. I just hate dragging out
the big canner for small batches.

No doubt you all have discussed pressure cooker/canners before.

Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 10:08 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

In article ,
"Anny Middon" wrote:

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...

I did not want to get into this but I see that I will have to. The
following tomato varieties are known to be low acid: Ace, Ace 55VF,
Beefmaster Hybrid, Big Early Hybrid, Big Girl, Big Set, Burpee VF
Hybrid, Cal Ace, Delicious, Fireball, Garden State, Royal Chico,
and San Marzano. There are others as well. The majority of the
more traditional home-garden raised tomatos are not low acid,
however.

The USDA recommends pressure canning for tomato products. Their
published recipies ALSO recommend acidification of tomato products
EVEN IF pressure canned. See the following:

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...n_guide_03.pdf

"...Recommendation: Use of a pressure canner will result in a higher
quality and more nutritious canned tomato products..."


I have seen the publication -- which is available from the NCHFP which I
mentioned in my post.

Note that the reason the publication suggest pressure canning is not a food
safety issue, but based on the quality of the finished product.


And here's an abstract from a journal article that suggests there is no
significant difference in any of the quality measures of home-canned
tomatoes:

http://fcs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/7/2/108

Of course, not having seen the entire article, I have no idea how they
define "significant". Frankly, I'm a bit dubious. I have always heard
that pressure canning often results in overcooked, mushy product. So
that is an old wives tale? When you prepare beans, for freezing for
instance, you blanch and then cool them rapidly in ice water. That is
done to improve the quality of the end product. If you let them keep
cooking, they will get mushy. So it's kind of hard to believe that the
quality is going to be the same before and after a 30-60 minute
cool-down time in a hot canner.

Note that the USDA guide does not recommend -against- BWB
canning of tomato products (like Salsa). They merely recommend
pressure canning instead of BWB canning of tomato products.

In other words, they are going to wait until the jury is in, you might
say.


I don't thing that's what is going on. I think they have found that
pressure canned tomato items are of a higher quality and vitamin content
than BWB processed ones -- not that they are waiting to see if there are
safety problems with the BWB salsa.

The entire guide is up he

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...ions_usda.html

USDA recommends citric acid or lemon juice specifically, instead of
vinegar, because of taste.


Look at the salsa recipe on page 3-16 of the publication. You will see that
it specifically calls for vinegar.

The NCHFP site does have a specific blurb about Salsa, they
explicitly exclude low-acid pressure-canned Salsa recipies from
their list, and they also mention that there are other ingredients
that must be tested. Basically they are saying that if your going
to go the acidification route, then while you can reduce Ph with
adding acid, not all ingredients are permeable to the acid that you
add, that is why they recommend against any Salsa recipies they
haven't tested the ingredients list on.


Yes -- but that doesn't mean that the salsa recipes they include are in any
way unsafe.

Personally I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Pressure
canners are cheap and easy to operate, I have 2 of them both of
which cost less than $10 from Goodwill. (granted, I kept an eye
out for them and it took a while before they showed up) If you
pressure can your Salsa you can use whatever recipie you like, acid
or no acid, just as long as you pressure can it for the time called
for, for the longest time ingredient in it.


I have a pressure canner, and I use it for low-acid items I can, not
including salsa -- for which I use tested recipes and BWB processing. I
find it so much more of a hassle to use, and the BWB processing so much
easier, that I do BWB whenever it's safe to do so.

In case you are wondering why I find pressure canning to be more of a
hassle, it's primarily related to the amount of time it takes. I fill the
jars, put them in the pressure canner and put on the lid. It takes at least
five minutes (and I'm betting it's more like 10) for the water in the canner
to come to a boil. Then steam has to be expelled -- for my canner, for 7
minutes. The the pressure thingie goes on. Then I have to wait for the
pressure to reach the right level -- another 5 or 10 minutes. Then it's 10
minutes of processing (for tomatoes). Then at least an hour for the canner
to cool down so I can remove the jars.

Total time -- at least an hour and 22 minutes.

I tend to do canning marathon session where I can 3 or 4 products at a time.
When I BWB can I prepare the next item while jars are being processed.
Frequently it's less than half an hour between removing the first set of
jars from the BWB and putting the next set in.


Though I have done very little pressure canning, my experience, for the
few times I've done it, is similar to yours. When pressure canning, you
can't use a quick release mechanism or hold the pot under cold water
like you do for pressure cooking. It just has to sit there until the
pressure comes down on its own. That is a lot of time all right---
unless you have 2 or 3 pressure canners, a huge kitchen, and don't mind
fooling with multiple gauges or weights, not to speak of all the storage
room required. I don't think the people who wrote the article I cited
included this cool-down time in their calculations.

OTOH, it does take more energy to boil the huge amount of water
necessary for a BWB canner. But, if you are going to be processing
sequential batches, that would save some of that energy.

Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 11:16 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
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Posts: 3,906
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

Isabella Woodhouse wrote:
In article ,
"Anny Middon" wrote:

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...
I did not want to get into this but I see that I will have to. The
following tomato varieties are known to be low acid: Ace, Ace 55VF,
Beefmaster Hybrid, Big Early Hybrid, Big Girl, Big Set, Burpee VF
Hybrid, Cal Ace, Delicious, Fireball, Garden State, Royal Chico,
and San Marzano. There are others as well. The majority of the
more traditional home-garden raised tomatos are not low acid,
however.

The USDA recommends pressure canning for tomato products. Their
published recipies ALSO recommend acidification of tomato products
EVEN IF pressure canned. See the following:

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...n_guide_03.pdf

"...Recommendation: Use of a pressure canner will result in a higher
quality and more nutritious canned tomato products..."

I have seen the publication -- which is available from the NCHFP which I
mentioned in my post.

Note that the reason the publication suggest pressure canning is not a food
safety issue, but based on the quality of the finished product.


And here's an abstract from a journal article that suggests there is no
significant difference in any of the quality measures of home-canned
tomatoes:

http://fcs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/7/2/108

Of course, not having seen the entire article, I have no idea how they
define "significant". Frankly, I'm a bit dubious. I have always heard
that pressure canning often results in overcooked, mushy product. So
that is an old wives tale? When you prepare beans, for freezing for
instance, you blanch and then cool them rapidly in ice water. That is
done to improve the quality of the end product. If you let them keep
cooking, they will get mushy. So it's kind of hard to believe that the
quality is going to be the same before and after a 30-60 minute
cool-down time in a hot canner.

Note that the USDA guide does not recommend -against- BWB
canning of tomato products (like Salsa). They merely recommend
pressure canning instead of BWB canning of tomato products.

In other words, they are going to wait until the jury is in, you might
say.

I don't thing that's what is going on. I think they have found that
pressure canned tomato items are of a higher quality and vitamin content
than BWB processed ones -- not that they are waiting to see if there are
safety problems with the BWB salsa.

The entire guide is up he

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...ions_usda.html

USDA recommends citric acid or lemon juice specifically, instead of
vinegar, because of taste.

Look at the salsa recipe on page 3-16 of the publication. You will see that
it specifically calls for vinegar.
The NCHFP site does have a specific blurb about Salsa, they
explicitly exclude low-acid pressure-canned Salsa recipies from
their list, and they also mention that there are other ingredients
that must be tested. Basically they are saying that if your going
to go the acidification route, then while you can reduce Ph with
adding acid, not all ingredients are permeable to the acid that you
add, that is why they recommend against any Salsa recipies they
haven't tested the ingredients list on.

Yes -- but that doesn't mean that the salsa recipes they include are in any
way unsafe.

Personally I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Pressure
canners are cheap and easy to operate, I have 2 of them both of
which cost less than $10 from Goodwill. (granted, I kept an eye
out for them and it took a while before they showed up) If you
pressure can your Salsa you can use whatever recipie you like, acid
or no acid, just as long as you pressure can it for the time called
for, for the longest time ingredient in it.

I have a pressure canner, and I use it for low-acid items I can, not
including salsa -- for which I use tested recipes and BWB processing. I
find it so much more of a hassle to use, and the BWB processing so much
easier, that I do BWB whenever it's safe to do so.

In case you are wondering why I find pressure canning to be more of a
hassle, it's primarily related to the amount of time it takes. I fill the
jars, put them in the pressure canner and put on the lid. It takes at least
five minutes (and I'm betting it's more like 10) for the water in the canner
to come to a boil. Then steam has to be expelled -- for my canner, for 7
minutes. The the pressure thingie goes on. Then I have to wait for the
pressure to reach the right level -- another 5 or 10 minutes. Then it's 10
minutes of processing (for tomatoes). Then at least an hour for the canner
to cool down so I can remove the jars.

Total time -- at least an hour and 22 minutes.

I tend to do canning marathon session where I can 3 or 4 products at a time.
When I BWB can I prepare the next item while jars are being processed.
Frequently it's less than half an hour between removing the first set of
jars from the BWB and putting the next set in.


Though I have done very little pressure canning, my experience, for the
few times I've done it, is similar to yours. When pressure canning, you
can't use a quick release mechanism or hold the pot under cold water
like you do for pressure cooking. It just has to sit there until the
pressure comes down on its own. That is a lot of time all right---
unless you have 2 or 3 pressure canners, a huge kitchen, and don't mind
fooling with multiple gauges or weights, not to speak of all the storage
room required. I don't think the people who wrote the article I cited
included this cool-down time in their calculations.

OTOH, it does take more energy to boil the huge amount of water
necessary for a BWB canner. But, if you are going to be processing
sequential batches, that would save some of that energy.

Isabella

Hokay, I'll chime in here. I've been pressure canning for more than 40
years, most of it with the same eighteen-quart canner. Mine is the one
with the gauge that reads the pressure but it also has a jiggler.

Once I turn the heat off the pressure starts to drop and, within twenty
minutes or less, the gauge reads zero. At that stage you can remove the
top. At that point I do something our old home ec agent in Texas taught
us, toss a tea towel over the top and let it sit five more minutes. Once
that's done I lift the rack out, set the rack and jars on a folded towel
and let them cook to room temperature. It is generally recommended that
you let them sit for 24 hours before moving them around to ensure the
entire mass is cool. I've never had a jar fail to seal in the pressure
canner, never had the jar contents go bad (we eat it all up pretty quick
anyway), and, for certain items I prefer canned to frozen. Ie, green
beans, or shelled beans of any kind. Soups, soup stocks, broths, etc.
all get canned to save freezer room for important stuff like vacuum
sealed steaks, roasts, fish, etc.

Sure, pressure canning is a PITA but you get a safer, more convenient
food that will last up to a year or more in a cool place out of direct
sunlight - my pantry.

It's certainly no more difficult or lengthy than messing around with jam
pots, boiling jars for 5, 10, 20 minutes, etc. I quite BWBing tomatoes
twenty years ago when I became uncertain as to the acidity of the fruit.
If I get enough to can I pressure can them.

Oh yeah, none of the food I can has ever become mushy from the canning. YMMV

George

Father Inquisitor, HOSSPOJ
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 17-07-2008, 11:22 PM posted to rec.food.preserving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

On Jul 17, 4:44*am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
"Anny Middon" wrote in message

...





"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...


Your going to have to correct me if your favorite salsa recipie is
different, but most of them I've seen spec tomato chunks. *In short,
the finished product has significantly sized chunks of tomato in
it. *ANY of these recipies should be pressure canned regardless
of any acidification that the recipie may specify or regardless of
any boiling water canning that is specified. *Tomatos are
now known to be borderline low-acid, and the problem is that
in a recipie where they survive intact, you can have regions within
the tomato chunk that the acidification hasn't penetrated.


I'm going to disagree with you here, Ted. *There are salsa recipes that

are
safe for BWB canning at the NCHFP website, some (most) of which call for
chopped tomatoes. *I can't imagine those folks would leave any recipes up

at
their site if they weren't sure they were safe.


I did not want to get into this but I see that I will have to. *The
following
tomato varieties are known to be low acid: Ace, Ace 55VF, Beefmaster Hybrid,
Big Early Hybrid, Big Girl, Big Set, Burpee VF Hybrid, Cal Ace, Delicious,
Fireball, Garden State, Royal Chico, and San Marzano. There are others
as well. *The majority of the more traditional home-garden raised tomatos
are not low acid, however.

The USDA recommends pressure canning for tomato products. *Their
published recipies ALSO recommend acidification of tomato products
EVEN IF pressure canned. *See the following:

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...n_guide_03.pdf

"...Recommendation: *Use of a pressure canner will result in a higher
quality and more nutritious canned tomato products..."

Note that the USDA guide does not recommend -against- BWB
canning of tomato products (like Salsa). *They merely recommend
pressure canning instead of BWB canning of tomato products.

In other words, they are going to wait until the jury is in, you might
say.

The entire guide is up he

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publication...ions_usda.html

Think of the tomatoes in salsa as being similar to the cucumber chunks or
slices in pickles. *One-day recipes for pickles call for a significant
amount of vinegar. *So do safe for BWB salsas.


USDA recommends citric acid or lemon juice specifically, instead of
vinegar, because of taste.

The NCHFP site does have a specific blurb about Salsa, they explicitly
exclude low-acid pressure-canned Salsa recipies from their list, and
they also mention that there are other ingredients that must be tested.
Basically they are saying that if your going to go the acidification route,
then while you can reduce Ph with adding acid, not all ingredients are
permeable to the acid that you add, that is why they recommend against
any Salsa recipies they haven't tested the ingredients list on.

Personally I don't understand what the fuss is all about. *Pressure canners
are cheap and easy to operate, I have 2 of them both of which cost
less than $10 from Goodwill. *(granted, I kept an eye out for them and
it took a while before they showed up) *If you pressure can your Salsa
you can use whatever recipie you like, acid or no acid, just as long as
you pressure can it for the time called for, for the longest time ingredient
in it.


I decided not to buy a new pressure cooker because they're too
expensive and not very large. I'll keep an eye out for old ones at
Goodwill.
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 18-07-2008, 05:43 AM posted to rec.food.preserving
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default Canning recipe specifies jar size - dangerous to change?

In article ,
George Shirley wrote:

Hokay, I'll chime in here. I've been pressure canning for more than 40
years, most of it with the same eighteen-quart canner. Mine is the one
with the gauge that reads the pressure but it also has a jiggler.


I'm so glad you posted--- thank you. While I've done a lot of
canning and preserving, I have only little experience (a few years ago)
with pressure canning and, basically, what I recall is that BWB seemed
so much easier and less time-consuming than pressure canning. OTOH, I
was horribly sick at the time (celiac) but now, after recovering for a
couple years, I am very much better and getting back into my groove
again. So I need to relearn the process I guess.

We're all electric, no gas service at all. I have a glass-top range and
I do recall that adjusting the pressure was difficult. I may well have
heated on too high a range setting and then overcorrected to bring down
the pressure. I recall doing peaches (halves) and that the jars lost
half their liquid so I had to just open them all. Never had anything
like that happen with BWB. The canner is a Presto with a dial gauge.

We have an outdoor grill with a 15,000 BTU side burner so I was thinking
maybe I could try using that for pressure canning. But, since it gets
pretty hot here and it's very sunny out there, it would likely take a
lot longer for the canner to cool down out there unless I got it into
the house. But I fear that would be way too much moving around. Right?

Once I turn the heat off the pressure starts to drop and, within twenty
minutes or less, the gauge reads zero. At that stage you can remove the
top. At that point I do something our old home ec agent in Texas taught
us, toss a tea towel over the top and let it sit five more minutes.


If I may ask, what is the purpose of the towel?

...Once that's done I lift the rack out, set the rack and jars on a
folded towel and let them cook to room temperature. It is generally
recommended that you let them sit for 24 hours before moving them
around to ensure the entire mass is cool.


My canner only has a plate with holes on the bottom--- no lift-out rack.
In the past, all our BWB canners had a rack that held all the jars and
you would lift the entire thing out. I was worried about the jars
falling into each other and rattling around. I wondered if maybe that
was why my peaches did not turn out. It was disconcerting.

...I've never had a jar fail to seal in the pressure canner, never
had the jar contents go bad (we eat it all up pretty quick anyway),
and, for certain items I prefer canned to frozen. Ie, green beans, or
shelled beans of any kind. Soups, soup stocks, broths, etc. all get
canned to save freezer room for important stuff like vacuum sealed
steaks, roasts, fish, etc.


I've been very fortunate with BWB canning. But it would be nice to feel
even more secure and be able to can a greater variety of things. My
chicken broth takes up entirely too much freezer space, for instance.

Sure, pressure canning is a PITA but you get a safer, more convenient
food that will last up to a year or more in a cool place out of direct
sunlight - my pantry.

It's certainly no more difficult or lengthy than messing around with jam
pots, boiling jars for 5, 10, 20 minutes, etc. I quite BWBing tomatoes
twenty years ago when I became uncertain as to the acidity of the fruit.
If I get enough to can I pressure can them.

Oh yeah, none of the food I can has ever become mushy from the canning. YMMV


Well that is certainly good to know. BTW, since I started freezing my
green beans on cookie sheets and then vacuum sealing them, they are just
ever so much better than the old way of packing them into boxes. The
only shell beans we get from the garden are black-eyed peas. And we
gobble all those up fresh so there's never any left to preserve.

Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot
 




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