Hello,

Does anyone here know if a solid brass pan is safe to use for making
Jam? I've read worrying things about copper leaching into the mixture.

The pan is probably 100+ years old and has been used as decoration since
the 1970's when my mother bought it.

A couple of pictures of the pan are he

http://i2.tinypic.com/678aa2p.jpg
http://i3.tinypic.com/4zxuovd.jpg

It was quite corroded inside (several green spots) but these cleaned
away easily with lemon juice and salt.

Any advice much appreciated.

DB

In article >,
drbob > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Does anyone here know if a solid brass pan is safe to use for making
> Jam? I've read worrying things about copper leaching into the mixture.
>
> The pan is probably 100+ years old and has been used as decoration since
> the 1970's when my mother bought it.
>
> A couple of pictures of the pan are he
>
> http://i2.tinypic.com/678aa2p.jpg
> http://i3.tinypic.com/4zxuovd.jpg
>
> It was quite corroded inside (several green spots) but these cleaned
> away easily with lemon juice and salt.
>
> Any advice much appreciated.
>
> DB

I've never used a copper jam pan though I know they are used - more
commonly in Europe, I think, than here. Someone else will articulate
why there are cautions against using them , I'll bet. I'm not familiar
with any home-use pans of brass.

I ran across this article -- kind of interesting. Watch for line
breaks.
http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/...-coli-refriger
ated
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
For your listening pleasu http://www.am1500.com/pcast/80509.mp3 --
from the MN State Fair, 8-29-07

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

>
> I've never used a copper jam pan though I know they are used - more
> commonly in Europe, I think, than here. Someone else will articulate
> why there are cautions against using them , I'll bet. I'm not familiar
> with any home-use pans of brass.
>
> I ran across this article -- kind of interesting. Watch for line
> breaks.
> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/...-coli-refriger
> ated

Thanks. I've now found a couple of old threads where the safety of
copper pans is discussed:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...49448c9d86f8e/
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...7dea93422775b/

Opinion seems split - some people claim copper pans are toxic and others
say they've used copper pans for years with no problems.

Meanwhile copper Jam making pans are still widely used and sold in France:

http://www.achetezfacile.com/bassine...e/cuivre-_-25/

Continuing with the French lead, I found this article (in french):

http://www.espace-sciences.org/scien...-et-confiture/

The author states that the small amounts of copper sulphate which
dissolve into the Jam from a copper pan are actually beneficial, as they
catalyse the pectin, thus helping the jam set!

However brass pans seem to be much more rare and I've found very little
information about them. 'Zxvcbob' states that they aren't safe in this
thread:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...f379b3fc2c063/

I'm waiting to see if the food standards agency can give me any advice,
though it's looking more and more likely that my pan will remain an
ornament.

In article >
> wrote:
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>>
>> I've never used a copper jam pan though I know they are used -
>> more commonly in Europe, I think, than here. Someone else will
>> articulate why there are cautions against using them , I'll bet.
>> I'm not familiar with any home-use pans of brass.
>>
>> I ran across this article -- kind of interesting. Watch for line
>> breaks.


>> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/...er-e-coli-refr
>> iger ated

> Thanks. I've now found a couple of old threads where the safety of
> copper pans is discussed:


> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
> d/da549448c9d86f8e/

> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
> d/6867dea93422775b/

> Opinion seems split - some people claim copper pans are toxic and
> others say they've used copper pans for years with no problems.

> Meanwhile copper Jam making pans are still widely used and sold in
> France:

> http://www.achetezfacile.com/bassine...e/cuivre-_-25/

> Continuing with the French lead, I found this article (in french):


> http://www.espace-sciences.org/scien...rubriques/1011
> 5-science-et-cuisine/11983-bassines-en-cuivre-et-confiture/

> The author states that the small amounts of copper sulphate which
> dissolve into the Jam from a copper pan are actually beneficial, as
> they catalyse the pectin, thus helping the jam set!

> However brass pans seem to be much more rare and I've found very
> little information about them. 'Zxvcbob' states that they aren't safe
> in this thread:


> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
> d/b9df379b3fc2c063/

> I'm waiting to see if the food standards agency can give me any
> advice, though it's looking more and more likely that my pan will
> remain an
> ornament.

First let me say that I have not read this newsgroup in about eight
years because I stopped canning when I got pregnant. I told friends
that I would keep canning and they said that I would most likely stop
until my child started school. I now see that they were right! I
cannot wait to start again. I cannot believe that a lot of the old
canners are still here! I was so happy to see Barb and George Shirley
still posting.

I have a copper preserving pan and feel that jam gels much better with
it than with stainless steel. I do not use added pectin when I use it
and everything gels well. I have always wondered if that means it is
leaching something into the jam that is unhealthy. I searched the FAQ
but could not find information. Is it dangerous? It is the copper
preserving pan that Sur La Table sells.

Thanks for still being here!

Susan

--
I'm trying a new usenet client for Mac, Nemo OS X.
You can download it at http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo

cooker wrote:
> In article >
> > wrote:
>> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>>>
>>> I've never used a copper jam pan though I know they are used -
>>> more commonly in Europe, I think, than here. Someone else will
>>> articulate why there are cautions against using them , I'll bet.
>>> I'm not familiar with any home-use pans of brass.
>>>
>>> I ran across this article -- kind of interesting. Watch for line
>>> breaks.
>
>
>>> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/...er-e-coli-refr
>>> iger ated
>
>> Thanks. I've now found a couple of old threads where the safety of
>> copper pans is discussed:
>
>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
>> d/da549448c9d86f8e/
>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
>> d/6867dea93422775b/
>
>> Opinion seems split - some people claim copper pans are toxic and
>> others say they've used copper pans for years with no problems.
>
>> Meanwhile copper Jam making pans are still widely used and sold in
>> France:
>
>> http://www.achetezfacile.com/bassine...e/cuivre-_-25/
>
>> Continuing with the French lead, I found this article (in french):
>
>
>> http://www.espace-sciences.org/scien...rubriques/1011
>> 5-science-et-cuisine/11983-bassines-en-cuivre-et-confiture/
>
>> The author states that the small amounts of copper sulphate which
>> dissolve into the Jam from a copper pan are actually beneficial, as
>> they catalyse the pectin, thus helping the jam set!
>
>> However brass pans seem to be much more rare and I've found very
>> little information about them. 'Zxvcbob' states that they aren't safe
>> in this thread:
>
>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
>> d/b9df379b3fc2c063/
>
>> I'm waiting to see if the food standards agency can give me any
>> advice, though it's looking more and more likely that my pan will
>> remain an
>> ornament.
>
> First let me say that I have not read this newsgroup in about eight
> years because I stopped canning when I got pregnant. I told friends
> that I would keep canning and they said that I would most likely stop
> until my child started school. I now see that they were right! I
> cannot wait to start again. I cannot believe that a lot of the old
> canners are still here! I was so happy to see Barb and George Shirley
> still posting.
>
> I have a copper preserving pan and feel that jam gels much better with
> it than with stainless steel. I do not use added pectin when I use it
> and everything gels well. I have always wondered if that means it is
> leaching something into the jam that is unhealthy. I searched the FAQ
> but could not find information. Is it dangerous? It is the copper
> preserving pan that Sur La Table sells.
>
> Thanks for still being here!
>
> Susan
>
>
Where else would we go? We're too well preserved to just mold away.

George B-})

cooker wrote:

>
> I have a copper preserving pan and feel that jam gels much better with
> it than with stainless steel. I do not use added pectin when I use it
> and everything gels well. I have always wondered if that means it is
> leaching something into the jam that is unhealthy. I searched the FAQ
> but could not find information. Is it dangerous? It is the copper
> preserving pan that Sur La Table sells.
>

I've now received a reply from the food standards agency. They said that
in principle copper and brass are safe as food contact materials, but
unlined pans can be susceptible to acidic foods such as tomatoes,
rhubarb, cabbage and many soft fruits. Without testing my Jam they can't
tell me if it it acidic enough to be a problem in such a pan.

The boiler plate advice is therefore to use a non reactive pan. They
obviously don't want to be responsible for me poisoning myself!

I don't give up that easily though! I'll try to find a friendly
scientist with a mass spectrometer to test some Jam made in the pan. I
shall report back here if I have any success.

The fact that unlined copper pans are still widely sold and used for Jam
making suggests to me that they are not a problem. Europe has fairly
strict food safety laws and I'm sure Brussels would have intervened if
they posed a risk to public health. This doesn't help me with my
copper/zinc brass pan though.

DB

drbob wrote:
> I've now received a reply from the food standards agency.....
>
> The boiler plate advice is therefore to use a non reactive pan. They
> obviously don't want to be responsible for me poisoning myself!
>
> I don't give up that easily though! I'll try to find a friendly
> scientist with a mass spectrometer to test some Jam made in the pan. I
> shall report back here if I have any success.

In other words, you'll keep asking until you receive the answer you wish?

B/

In article >,
cooker > wrote:

> In article >
> > wrote:
> > Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> >>
> >> I've never used a copper jam pan though I know they are used -
> >> more commonly in Europe, I think, than here. Someone else will
> >> articulate why there are cautions against using them , I'll bet.
> >> I'm not familiar with any home-use pans of brass.
> >>
> >> I ran across this article -- kind of interesting. Watch for line
> >> breaks.
>
>
> >> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/...er-e-coli-refr
> >> iger ated
>
> > Thanks. I've now found a couple of old threads where the safety of
> > copper pans is discussed:
>
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
> > d/da549448c9d86f8e/
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
> > d/6867dea93422775b/
>
> > Opinion seems split - some people claim copper pans are toxic and
> > others say they've used copper pans for years with no problems.
>
> > Meanwhile copper Jam making pans are still widely used and sold in
> > France:
>
> > http://www.achetezfacile.com/bassine...e/cuivre-_-25/
>
> > Continuing with the French lead, I found this article (in french):
>
>
> > http://www.espace-sciences.org/scien...rubriques/1011
> > 5-science-et-cuisine/11983-bassines-en-cuivre-et-confiture/
>
> > The author states that the small amounts of copper sulphate which
> > dissolve into the Jam from a copper pan are actually beneficial, as
> > they catalyse the pectin, thus helping the jam set!
>
> > However brass pans seem to be much more rare and I've found very
> > little information about them. 'Zxvcbob' states that they aren't safe
> > in this thread:
>
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa
> > d/b9df379b3fc2c063/
>
> > I'm waiting to see if the food standards agency can give me any
> > advice, though it's looking more and more likely that my pan will
> > remain an
> > ornament.
>
> First let me say that I have not read this newsgroup in about eight
> years because I stopped canning when I got pregnant. I told friends
> that I would keep canning and they said that I would most likely stop
> until my child started school. I now see that they were right! I
> cannot wait to start again. I cannot believe that a lot of the old
> canners are still here! I was so happy to see Barb and George Shirley
> still posting.

Jorge's tried to check out a number of times, but we won't let him.
He's still ornery and he still looks "sweet" in his pearls.
>
> I have a copper preserving pan and feel that jam gels much better with
> it than with stainless steel. I do not use added pectin when I use it
> and everything gels well. I have always wondered if that means it is
> leaching something into the jam that is unhealthy. I searched the FAQ
> but could not find information. Is it dangerous? It is the copper
> preserving pan that Sur La Table sells.
>
> Thanks for still being here!
>
> Susan

Tuesday Morning is advertising a copper preserving pan for $50. Sale
starts on the 8th, I think.

Welcome home, Susan. (Did you always post as "Susan"?)
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
For your listening pleasu http://www.am1500.com/pcast/80509.mp3 --
from the MN State Fair, 8-29-07

Brian Mailman wrote:
> drbob wrote:
>> I've now received a reply from the food standards agency.....
>>
>> The boiler plate advice is therefore to use a non reactive pan. They
>> obviously don't want to be responsible for me poisoning myself!
>>
>> I don't give up that easily though! I'll try to find a friendly
>> scientist with a mass spectrometer to test some Jam made in the pan. I
>> shall report back here if I have any success.
>
> In other words, you'll keep asking until you receive the answer you wish?
>
> B/

No, out of curiosity, I'll try to actually get a scientific test done
to ascertain whether or not the brass pan is dangerous.

It's clear that copper and zinc can dissolve into the mix. However these
metals are already present in our diet and are essential to the proper
function of many proteins. For example, copper catalyses the binding of
oxygen to the haemoglobin in your blood, see he
<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1164879&pageindex=1#page>

The question, to which I still don't have a definite answer, is does
*too much* metal dissolve into the Jam mix? Without an answer to this
question it is sensible to err on the side of caution, hence the advice
from the FSA.

In article
>Melba's Jammin'
> wrote:
> Tuesday Morning is advertising a copper preserving pan for $50.
> Sale starts on the 8th, I think.

But are they safe for use in canning? What was the jist of the
discussions in the past?
> Welcome home, Susan. (Did you always post as "Susan"?)

Thank you! My address was through Stanford at the time -
leland.stanford.edu.

Susan

--
I'm trying a new usenet client for Mac, Nemo OS X.
You can download it at http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo

"drbob" > wrote in message
m...
> Brian Mailman wrote:
> > drbob wrote:
> >> I've now received a reply from the food standards agency.....
> >>
> >> The boiler plate advice is therefore to use a non reactive pan. They
> >> obviously don't want to be responsible for me poisoning myself!
> >>
> >> I don't give up that easily though! I'll try to find a friendly
> >> scientist with a mass spectrometer to test some Jam made in the pan. I
> >> shall report back here if I have any success.
> >
> > In other words, you'll keep asking until you receive the answer you
wish?
> >
> > B/
>
> No, out of curiosity, I'll try to actually get a scientific test done
> to ascertain whether or not the brass pan is dangerous.
>
> It's clear that copper and zinc can dissolve into the mix. However these
> metals are already present in our diet and are essential to the proper
> function of many proteins.

I think your pretty safe. Take a look at the following:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs...c/index_e.html

Note that US RDA is 15mg of zinc a day, 2mg of copper

Note that if you have galvanized steel water pipes in your home like much
of the population, your getting zinc leach from them as well.

Ted

On Sep 4, 1:05 pm, drbob > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone here know if a solid brass pan is safe to use for making
> Jam? I've read worrying things about copper leaching into the mixture.
> The pan is probably 100+ years old and has been used as decoration since
> the 1970's when my mother bought it.
> Any advice much appreciated.

Hi, I drifted here from rec.food.drinks.tea, my more usual home.
Brass was the metal of choice since the 1888's for making the
traditional huge tea rolling tables and can still be seen in abundance
in many tea factories. It was beginning to be replaced by gunmetal in
the 1960's and now, because it wears better, by stainless steel. No-
one to my knowledge (30 years in the tea industry) ever suffered ill
effects from brass being in close contact with tea being processed and
tea jiuce is pretty acid - pH 5.5. Note also that copper oxychloride
is regularly sprayed on the tea bushes to enhance enzymic oxidation
during processing and as an organic approved fungicide.

Nigel at Teacraft.

"drbob" > wrote in message
. ..
> cooker wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a copper preserving pan and feel that jam gels much better with
>> it than with stainless steel. (clipped)
>
> I've now received a reply from the food standards agency. They said that
> in principle copper and brass are safe as food contact materials, but
> unlined pans can be susceptible to acidic foods such as tomatoes, rhubarb,
> cabbage and many soft fruits. Without testing my Jam they can't tell me if
> it it acidic enough to be a problem in such a pan.
>
> The boiler plate advice is therefore to use a non reactive pan. They
> obviously don't want to be responsible for me poisoning myself!
>
> I don't give up that easily though! I'll try to find a friendly scientist
> with a mass spectrometer to test some Jam made in the pan. I shall report
> back here if I have any success.
>
> The fact that unlined copper pans are still widely sold and used for Jam
> making suggests to me that they are not a problem. Europe has fairly
> strict food safety laws and I'm sure Brussels would have intervened if
> they posed a risk to public health. This doesn't help me with my
> copper/zinc brass pan though.
>
> DB

Have you thought of finding a friendly physician and having your blood
checked for metals? Or something, perhaps the poison control center would
have some info for what you should be checked for. Unless you eat jam at
every meal, this might be effective enough.
Edrena