I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to thinking
how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar (or
commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a salsa
that is safe for BWB processing.

I'm envisioning a software program where you could enter the amount of the
ingredients you have at hand or want to put in your salsa and it would come
out and tell you how much vinegar to add. I'd be happy with one that
allowed you to input the usual salsa ingredients (tomatoes/tomatillos/other
fruit, onions, garlic, peppers, cilantro) and absolutely thrilled with one
that would allow other ingredients. (I was ruminating on how a salsa of
tomatoes, onion, garlic, parsley, oregano and chopped artichoke hearts could
be tasty.)

Is such a program even possible? If so, any ideas on where I might find
one?

Anny

In article ,
"Anny Middon" wrote:

I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to thinking
how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar (or
commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a salsa
that is safe for BWB processing.

I'm envisioning a software program where you could enter the amount of the
ingredients you have at hand or want to put in your salsa and it would come
out and tell you how much vinegar to add. I'd be happy with one that
allowed you to input the usual salsa ingredients (tomatoes/tomatillos/other
fruit, onions, garlic, peppers, cilantro) and absolutely thrilled with one
that would allow other ingredients. (I was ruminating on how a salsa of
tomatoes, onion, garlic, parsley, oregano and chopped artichoke hearts could
be tasty.)

Is such a program even possible? If so, any ideas on where I might find
one?

Anny

Boy, I do not know of anything like that. If you're really into it,
maybe you should see about getting a pH meter. The U of MN extension
folks said they thought there was something available at a reasonable
price but they never provided the information. I might nudge them again.
Ask the folks at the NCHFP; they're pretty responsive, IME.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://jamlady.eboard.com
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller

"Melba's Jammin'" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Anny Middon" wrote:

I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to
thinking
how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar (or
commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a salsa
that is safe for BWB processing.

I'm envisioning a software program where you could enter the amount of
the
ingredients you have at hand or want to put in your salsa and it would
come
out and tell you how much vinegar to add. I'd be happy with one that
allowed you to input the usual salsa ingredients
(tomatoes/tomatillos/other
fruit, onions, garlic, peppers, cilantro) and absolutely thrilled with
one
that would allow other ingredients. (I was ruminating on how a salsa of
tomatoes, onion, garlic, parsley, oregano and chopped artichoke hearts
could
be tasty.)

Is such a program even possible? If so, any ideas on where I might find
one?

Anny

Boy, I do not know of anything like that. If you're really into it,
maybe you should see about getting a pH meter. The U of MN extension
folks said they thought there was something available at a reasonable
price but they never provided the information. I might nudge them again.
Ask the folks at the NCHFP; they're pretty responsive, IME.
--

Thanks, Barb. I'll send my query to them. If I hear anything useful I'll
report back to the group.

Anny

"Melba's Jammin'" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Anny Middon" wrote:

I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to
thinking
how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar (or
commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a salsa
that is safe for BWB processing.

I'm envisioning a software program where you could enter the amount of
the
ingredients you have at hand or want to put in your salsa and it would
come
out and tell you how much vinegar to add. I'd be happy with one that
allowed you to input the usual salsa ingredients
(tomatoes/tomatillos/other
fruit, onions, garlic, peppers, cilantro) and absolutely thrilled with
one
that would allow other ingredients. (I was ruminating on how a salsa of
tomatoes, onion, garlic, parsley, oregano and chopped artichoke hearts
could
be tasty.)

Is such a program even possible? If so, any ideas on where I might find
one?

Anny

Boy, I do not know of anything like that. If you're really into it,
maybe you should see about getting a pH meter. The U of MN extension
folks said they thought there was something available at a reasonable
price but they never provided the information. I might nudge them again.
Ask the folks at the NCHFP; they're pretty responsive, IME.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://jamlady.eboard.com
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller


I did a google search of : ph meter for food .....and came up with the
following excellent article.... (oddly enough it is a hyperlink from the U
of MN that Barb mentioned that was titled "Choosing and using a PH Meter for
Food Products")

http://www.fapc.okstate.edu/FactShee...ng_usingpH.pdf

Also turned up the following site with several meters priced under $100

http://www.bestlabdeals.com/pH_Meters_s/1069.htm

I don't know if the same holds true for salsa, but Elizabeth Andress Ph.D.
from the NCHFP cautioned me during a conversation about the possibility of
canning my Brunswick Stew recipe that even *if* I was able to get the ph
right, there are still potential safety concerns relating to the overall
consistency of the product (viscosity, liquid to meat ratio, etc) that could
affect the internal temperature of the product especially in the center of
the jars which might not get hot enough during canning and could allow the
bad critters to set up residence. Her recommendation was to not can anything
that did not use a *tested* recipe.

That said, I've eaten Mom & Memaws canned goods for 40someodd years and
until recently, they didn't exactly follow conventional wisdom (Mom's been
using the manual that came with her 1960's era presto canner as a guidebook
since forever). 1000's of cans consumed over the years.....some with dates
topping 7 or 8 years old and nobody's died yet :-) Too me though, it's just
not worth the risk.

Keith, who put up a measly 124 pints of salsa this season.

Anny Middon wrote:

"Melba's Jammin'" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Anny Middon" wrote:
I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to
thinking
how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar (or
commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a salsa
that is safe for BWB processing.

Boy, I do not know of anything like that. If you're really into it,
maybe you should see about getting a pH meter. The U of MN extension
folks said they thought there was something available at a reasonable
price but they never provided the information. I might nudge them again.
Ask the folks at the NCHFP; they're pretty responsive, IME.
--

Thanks, Barb. I'll send my query to them. If I hear anything useful I'll
report back to the group.
Anny

Anny - I got pH strips from a local Scientific Supply store. My beef with these
Whatman® pH Indicator Paper (type CF, Cat No. 2613991, which measures pH from
0-14) is that there are color matches only from one whole number to the next. I
don't know how the calibration runs between whole numbers. I don't always want
stuff Too Acid, but I don't have much choice, do I? These strips cost about
US$17 per 100. I dip them into a spoonful of product out of the pot. I don't
know if any of the reagents(?) are toxic so I test away from the pot.
There is a classroom science chain in some malls that might have pH litmus
paper. Dunno if that would work for you. Also brewer supply places. Them
winemakers gotta be pretty spot on with their acid also I think.
Funny story - my new canning buddyette's spouse went out and got a swimmin'
pool test kit. It only tested down to pH 6.0. I told him that was not even
close enuf. Bless his heart, he wanted to save money...
Edrena

"KW" keith_warrennospamatallteldotnet wrote in message
...



I did a google search of : ph meter for food .....and came up with the
following excellent article.... (oddly enough it is a hyperlink from the U
of MN that Barb mentioned that was titled "Choosing and using a PH Meter
for
Food Products")

http://www.fapc.okstate.edu/FactShee...ng_usingpH.pdf

Also turned up the following site with several meters priced under $100

http://www.bestlabdeals.com/pH_Meters_s/1069.htm


Thanks, Keith. I've saved a copy of the article and bookmarked the bestlabs
page.

I was trying to avoid the need to test for pH, but now I'm thinking maybe I
have to do that.

Are there any guidelines on how much vinegar you need to add to change the
pH by a given amount?

Wait a minute. Let me back up here. I'm sure I can look it up, but let's
start with -- What pH is needed to safely BWB can? (I have 4.5 stuck in my
head, but I'm not at all sure that's correct.)

Whatever the number is, if I check my tomato sauce and it's below that
number (or liquify some crushed tomatoes in the blender and check those) can
I forego adding the lemon juice?

Suppose I measure my salsa and I have 2 quarts of the stuff. Testing some
that I've liquified in my blender, I find it has a pH that is 0.3 above what
I need to safely BWB can it. Is there some guideline of how much vinegar I
need to add to reach the right pH? I know I'll have to check the pH again
to be sure, but I want to avoid having to check several times and I also
want to avoid over-acidifying the mix too much and ending up with a sour
salsa.


I don't know if the same holds true for salsa, but Elizabeth Andress Ph.D.
from the NCHFP cautioned me during a conversation about the possibility of
canning my Brunswick Stew recipe that even *if* I was able to get the ph
right, there are still potential safety concerns relating to the overall
consistency of the product (viscosity, liquid to meat ratio, etc) that
could
affect the internal temperature of the product especially in the center of
the jars which might not get hot enough during canning and could allow the
bad critters to set up residence. Her recommendation was to not can
anything
that did not use a *tested* recipe.

Wouldn't Brunswick Stew be pressure canned?

In any case, salsa has I think a fairly narrow acceptable viscosity range --
you don't want it too liquid but it's got to be liquid enough to scoop on a
chip or drizzle nicely on your grilled salmon fillet. Also, it goes into
the jar straight off the stove, so the internal temperature shouldn't be too
far off the boiling point.


That said, I've eaten Mom & Memaws canned goods for 40someodd years and
until recently, they didn't exactly follow conventional wisdom (Mom's been
using the manual that came with her 1960's era presto canner as a
guidebook
since forever). 1000's of cans consumed over the years.....some with dates
topping 7 or 8 years old and nobody's died yet :-) Too me though, it's
just
not worth the risk.

Keith, who put up a measly 124 pints of salsa this season.

I'm no where near that. I've done maybe 50 jars, nearly all of which were
half-pints. Four different recipes.

Anny

"Anny Middon" wrote in message
...
I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to
thinking how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar
(or commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a
salsa that is safe for BWB processing.

I'm envisioning a software program where you could enter the amount of the
ingredients you have at hand or want to put in your salsa and it would
come out and tell you how much vinegar to add. I'd be happy with one that
allowed you to input the usual salsa ingredients
(tomatoes/tomatillos/other fruit, onions, garlic, peppers, cilantro) and
absolutely thrilled with one that would allow other ingredients. (I was
ruminating on how a salsa of tomatoes, onion, garlic, parsley, oregano and
chopped artichoke hearts could be tasty.)

Is such a program even possible? If so, any ideas on where I might find
one?

Anny



I can buy a fresh made salsa at the grocery store deli that has just those
ingredients in it.....

I agree, Anny. Wouldn't it be cool if we could get a recipe that says, for
example, if you have X cups tomaotes/tomatillos and Y cups peppers/onions
and Z amount herbs of choice, then add A amount of vinegar or B amount of
lemon juice....except we sort of already do. When I follow an approved
salsa recipe, I alsways use X cups tomatoes, Y cups peppers (but they may
not always be the kind of peppers I like or can get, as per recipe) and
onions (again as per taste or availability) and sometimes I like less
herbs, but I never use more, and the vinegar or lemon/lime juice stays the
same. I do adjust when necessary, but always within the recommended recipe.
Never more or less than the approved amount, but maybe a different kind.

A program would be neat. Maybe amoung the bunch of us here on r.f.c we
could come up with something and then ask the powers that be if it were
safe? Like, plug in your amount of tomates here, your peppers here and
voila, this is how much lemon juice you need. Except, food science, when it
comes to ph and safety, is not that simple. Certainly it works at some of
those recipe sites where they give you a recipe for 10 but you wanna make it
for 2....

hmmm......

I'm gonna follow this thread,

Kathi

Kathi Jones wrote:
"Anny Middon" wrote in message
...

I was up late last night making and canning some salsa and I got to
thinking how handy it would be to have a set of rules for how much vinegar
(or commercial lemon juice) to add based on your ingredients to make a
salsa that is safe for BWB processing.

I'm envisioning a software program where you could enter the amount of the
ingredients you have at hand or want to put in your salsa and it would
come out and tell you how much vinegar to add. I'd be happy with one that
allowed you to input the usual salsa ingredients
(tomatoes/tomatillos/other fruit, onions, garlic, peppers, cilantro) and
absolutely thrilled with one that would allow other ingredients. (I was
ruminating on how a salsa of tomatoes, onion, garlic, parsley, oregano and
chopped artichoke hearts could be tasty.)

Is such a program even possible? If so, any ideas on where I might find
one?

Anny




I can buy a fresh made salsa at the grocery store deli that has just those
ingredients in it.....

I agree, Anny. Wouldn't it be cool if we could get a recipe that says, for
example, if you have X cups tomaotes/tomatillos and Y cups peppers/onions
and Z amount herbs of choice, then add A amount of vinegar or B amount of
lemon juice....except we sort of already do. When I follow an approved
salsa recipe, I alsways use X cups tomatoes, Y cups peppers (but they may
not always be the kind of peppers I like or can get, as per recipe) and
onions (again as per taste or availability) and sometimes I like less
herbs, but I never use more, and the vinegar or lemon/lime juice stays the
same. I do adjust when necessary, but always within the recommended recipe.
Never more or less than the approved amount, but maybe a different kind.

A program would be neat. Maybe amoung the bunch of us here on r.f.c we
could come up with something and then ask the powers that be if it were
safe? Like, plug in your amount of tomates here, your peppers here and
voila, this is how much lemon juice you need. Except, food science, when it
comes to ph and safety, is not that simple. Certainly it works at some of
those recipe sites where they give you a recipe for 10 but you wanna make it
for 2....

hmmm......

I'm gonna follow this thread,

Kathi



Of course, if you make fresh salsa ( not canned) you can use any
proportions of anything and still be safe.
Ellen

"Anny Middon" wrote in message
. ..
"KW" keith_warrennospamatallteldotnet wrote in message
...



I did a google search of : ph meter for food .....and came up with the
following excellent article.... (oddly enough it is a hyperlink from the
U
of MN that Barb mentioned that was titled "Choosing and using a PH Meter
for
Food Products")

http://www.fapc.okstate.edu/FactShee...ng_usingpH.pdf

Also turned up the following site with several meters priced under $100

http://www.bestlabdeals.com/pH_Meters_s/1069.htm


Thanks, Keith. I've saved a copy of the article and bookmarked the
bestlabs
page.

I was trying to avoid the need to test for pH, but now I'm thinking maybe
I
have to do that.

Are there any guidelines on how much vinegar you need to add to change the
pH by a given amount?

In my salsa, I use a mixture of 50% lime and 50% lemon juice to boost
acidity instead of vinegar. I find that it doesn't negatively affect the
flavor at all and if anything it gives it a *very* subtle tropical taste
without any of the bitterness of vinegar. Juice adds a good bit of liquid to
the mix, but I just simmer a little longer to allow for evaporation.


Wait a minute. Let me back up here. I'm sure I can look it up, but let's
start with -- What pH is needed to safely BWB can? (I have 4.5 stuck in
my
head, but I'm not at all sure that's correct.)

4.5 works, the published number is 4.6 or below to be considered an acid
food.


Whatever the number is, if I check my tomato sauce and it's below that
number (or liquify some crushed tomatoes in the blender and check those)
can
I forego adding the lemon juice?

Suppose I measure my salsa and I have 2 quarts of the stuff. Testing some
that I've liquified in my blender, I find it has a pH that is 0.3 above
what
I need to safely BWB can it. Is there some guideline of how much vinegar
I
need to add to reach the right pH? I know I'll have to check the pH again
to be sure, but I want to avoid having to check several times and I also
want to avoid over-acidifying the mix too much and ending up with a sour
salsa.

I don't know about a guideline for how much to add, but how about just
putting it in, simmer, sample, test and repeat as necessary...I especially
enjoy the sample step :-) Again, I'd use the lemon or lime juice in order to
preserve flavor integrity.



I don't know if the same holds true for salsa, but Elizabeth Andress
Ph.D.
from the NCHFP cautioned me during a conversation about the possibility
of
canning my Brunswick Stew recipe that even *if* I was able to get the ph
right, there are still potential safety concerns relating to the overall
consistency of the product (viscosity, liquid to meat ratio, etc) that
could
affect the internal temperature of the product especially in the center
of
the jars which might not get hot enough during canning and could allow
the
bad critters to set up residence. Her recommendation was to not can
anything
that did not use a *tested* recipe.

Wouldn't Brunswick Stew be pressure canned?

Yes, it would, and that is what we discussed, but the same rules apply as it
is all about getting all of the contents (including that which is at the
center of the jar) to the correct temperature for the appropriate amount of
time, and without a *tested* recipe, she would not recommend my canning
(pressure) the stew. She did mention that some acedemic folks say it might
be ok to process according to the rec's for the *ingredient* with the
longest recommended processing time (in this case, corn), but she did not
subscribe to that philosophy.


In any case, salsa has I think a fairly narrow acceptable viscosity
range --
you don't want it too liquid but it's got to be liquid enough to scoop on
a
chip or drizzle nicely on your grilled salmon fillet. Also, it goes into
the jar straight off the stove, so the internal temperature shouldn't be
too
far off the boiling point.

I agree, that's why after I skin and core the tomatoes, I also hand squeeze
each one over a strainer to get as much liquid out as possible and then let
the remaining pulp drain over another strainer until I have enough processed
for a batch of salsa.



That said, I've eaten Mom & Memaws canned goods for 40someodd years and
until recently, they didn't exactly follow conventional wisdom (Mom's
been
using the manual that came with her 1960's era presto canner as a
guidebook
since forever). 1000's of cans consumed over the years.....some with
dates
topping 7 or 8 years old and nobody's died yet :-) Too me though, it's
just
not worth the risk.

Keith, who put up a measly 124 pints of salsa this season.

I'm no where near that. I've done maybe 50 jars, nearly all of which were
half-pints.

Four different recipes.

Ooh, I'l show you mine if you show me yours G


Anny



Keith