Illinois, specifically the Pilsen / 26th Street area of Chicago, which
has a huge Mexican population and has been that way for a long, long
time.
Some absolutely *authentic* Mexican restaurants. Representatives from
nearly every state in Mexico.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I've lived in Chicago all my life, up until three years ago, as I now
live in South Central New Mexico (Alamogordo)

Since I lived in NM, I've yet to eat a good Taco, Tamale, Burrito,
Tostada, Carne Asada like anything which I had eaten in Illinois.

New Mexican people just don't believe this though, and they think thier
food is the best. I don't! While I'm not Mexican, I don't see New
Mexican Food being anything like what I feel is true Mexican Cuisine.

Perhaps there are some good eateries in Santa Fe-ALB, but certainly not
here, and certainly not in Juarez, Mexico, as I've been there, and eaten
a few times, and the food isn't acceptable for a dog to eat in Juarez.

I've yet to see dishes like Al Pastor, anything with Mole on it, Lengua,
Tripitas, Sesos, or even a facsimile of Barbacoa in NM. Just miserable
tasting ground beef, shredded beef (Which is probably some from of cheap
Brisket), and maybe Chicken.

Naturally in NM Green Chile goes on everything, and that is the Staple
Food of NM.
Chile Rellenos here are made with NM Green Chile. I've yet to see them
made with Poblano Chiles here (Which I personally prefer).

People stand shocked, and in amazement here, when I tell them that in
Chicago, the Hispanic population is virtually double the entire
population of the State of NM!

Places in Chicago like Nuevo Leon on 18th St. and El Milagro on Blue
Island make more what I consider to be true "Mexican" Cuisine.

I actually make better Tacos than what I've sampled here so far, and I
am not Hispanic.
Mark

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:30:39 -0600, (Mark D) wrote:

>Illinois, specifically the Pilsen / 26th Street area of Chicago, which
>has a huge Mexican population and has been that way for a long, long
>time.
>Some absolutely *authentic* Mexican restaurants. Representatives from
>nearly every state in Mexico.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>I've lived in Chicago all my life, up until three years ago, as I now
>live in South Central New Mexico (Alamogordo)
>
>Since I lived in NM, I've yet to eat a good Taco, Tamale, Burrito,
>Tostada, Carne Asada like anything which I had eaten in Illinois.
>
>New Mexican people just don't believe this though, and they think thier
>food is the best. I don't! While I'm not Mexican, I don't see New
>Mexican Food being anything like what I feel is true Mexican Cuisine.
>
>Perhaps there are some good eateries in Santa Fe-ALB, but certainly not
>here, and certainly not in Juarez, Mexico, as I've been there, and eaten
>a few times, and the food isn't acceptable for a dog to eat in Juarez.
>
>I've yet to see dishes like Al Pastor, anything with Mole on it, Lengua,
>Tripitas, Sesos, or even a facsimile of Barbacoa in NM. Just miserable
>tasting ground beef, shredded beef (Which is probably some from of cheap
>Brisket), and maybe Chicken.
>
>Naturally in NM Green Chile goes on everything, and that is the Staple
>Food of NM.
>Chile Rellenos here are made with NM Green Chile. I've yet to see them
>made with Poblano Chiles here (Which I personally prefer).
>
>People stand shocked, and in amazement here, when I tell them that in
>Chicago, the Hispanic population is virtually double the entire
>population of the State of NM!
>
>Places in Chicago like Nuevo Leon on 18th St. and El Milagro on Blue
>Island make more what I consider to be true "Mexican" Cuisine.
>
>I actually make better Tacos than what I've sampled here so far, and I
>am not Hispanic.
>Mark


It is your frame of reference that is operating here - as it is for
most of us. Unless you have been to Mexico, it is doubtful you have
had the real thing. Almost everything in the US has been
"Americanized" to some degree or another be it in Chicago, San Diego
or New Mexico. I suspect that you are looking in all the wrong places
for your food in NM.


jim

"ensenadajim" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:30:39 -0600, (Mark D) wrote:
>
>>Illinois, specifically the Pilsen / 26th Street area of Chicago, which
>>has a huge Mexican population and has been that way for a long, long
>>time.
>>Some absolutely *authentic* Mexican restaurants. Representatives from
>>nearly every state in Mexico.
>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>I've lived in Chicago all my life, up until three years ago, as I now
>>live in South Central New Mexico (Alamogordo)
>>
>>Since I lived in NM, I've yet to eat a good Taco, Tamale, Burrito,
>>Tostada, Carne Asada like anything which I had eaten in Illinois.
>>
>>New Mexican people just don't believe this though, and they think thier
>>food is the best. I don't! While I'm not Mexican, I don't see New
>>Mexican Food being anything like what I feel is true Mexican Cuisine.
>>
>>Perhaps there are some good eateries in Santa Fe-ALB, but certainly not
>>here, and certainly not in Juarez, Mexico, as I've been there, and eaten
>>a few times, and the food isn't acceptable for a dog to eat in Juarez.
>>
>>I've yet to see dishes like Al Pastor, anything with Mole on it, Lengua,
>>Tripitas, Sesos, or even a facsimile of Barbacoa in NM. Just miserable
>>tasting ground beef, shredded beef (Which is probably some from of cheap
>>Brisket), and maybe Chicken.
>>
>>Naturally in NM Green Chile goes on everything, and that is the Staple
>>Food of NM.
>>Chile Rellenos here are made with NM Green Chile. I've yet to see them
>>made with Poblano Chiles here (Which I personally prefer).
>>
>>People stand shocked, and in amazement here, when I tell them that in
>>Chicago, the Hispanic population is virtually double the entire
>>population of the State of NM!
>>
>>Places in Chicago like Nuevo Leon on 18th St. and El Milagro on Blue
>>Island make more what I consider to be true "Mexican" Cuisine.
>>
>>I actually make better Tacos than what I've sampled here so far, and I
>>am not Hispanic.
>>Mark
>
>
> It is your frame of reference that is operating here - as it is for
> most of us. Unless you have been to Mexico, it is doubtful you have
> had the real thing. Almost everything in the US has been
> "Americanized" to some degree or another be it in Chicago, San Diego
> or New Mexico. I suspect that you are looking in all the wrong places
> for your food in NM.

So Mexican immigrants flock to restaurants that don't serve "authentic" food
they recognize, or don't serve food they grew up making to their
compatriots?

Evidently you haven't been to a Mexican restaurant in a Mexican barrio.

Mark D wrote:

> New Mexican people just don't believe this though, and they think thier
> food is the best. I don't! While I'm not Mexican, I don't see New
> Mexican Food being anything like what I feel is true Mexican Cuisine.

That's because you are abysmally ignorant. You're a culinary oaf. I
remember the last time I tried to straighten you out when you tried to
tell us that ground beef was part of Mexican cooking, but you're back
and you're incorrigible.

You have not educated yourself about Mexican cooking, even though there
are many very good introductory books written by people who travelled
all over Latin America and they recorded recipes that showed similar
dishes and very different dishes, depending upon the country of origin
and how much Europeans influenced the particular dish.

There is very little mention of the pathetic snack foods you ate in
Chicago and expected to find in New Mexico. The large impoverished
Hispanic population in Chicago is there because they are impoverished,
and the paleteros and the taco stand owners provide tacos and burritos
because that's all they know how to cook.

When you lived in Chicago you were ignorantly eating snack foods that
were made with cuts of meat that Anglo American throw away or grind up
for cat food. And you thought that shit represented *all* Mexican
cooking.

Tacos and burritos and tamales and enchiladas remind Mexican immigrants
of what they ate when they were desperately poor in Mexico.

And, don't say "Mexican cuisine". Saying "cuisine" is an affectation
that assumes the truth of French pretensions about doing everything
better than the rest of the world.

Tacos and tamales and enchiladas are *not* French cuisine, there is
*nothing* so pretentious about antojitos as there is about French food
like escargot or cuisse de grenouille or potage St. Germaine.

I have eaten snails and frogs' legs and pea soup in a dried out French
bread bowl and been overcharged by snotty waiters and told them they
that had to be kidding, overcharging me for that crap and then holding
their hands out for a tip.

So, say "cocina Mexicana" when referring to ALL types of Mexican
cooking. At least that's a start to understanding the three basic
styles of cooking.

You must realize that there is a higher Mexican colonial style cooking
that is called "Criollo", just as there is Mexican Indian cooking that
is called "Indigenous" and there is *mestizo* cooking, which is a blend
of the cooking styles of the Indians and the Creoles.

Indigenous cooking may include insects and other invertebrates in the
recipe. Mestizo cooking blends European, Creole and Indigenous cooking.
>
> Perhaps there are some good eateries in Santa Fe-ALB, but certainly not
> here, and certainly not in Juarez, Mexico, as I've been there, and eaten
> a few times, and the food isn't acceptable for a dog to eat in Juarez.

No kidding? You visit the shanty town of Juarez and you're surprised by
the poor quality of border peasant food? LOL!

Last time I was in Santa Fe, the Anglo American and Canadian tourists I
was with were afraid of the spicy New Mexican cuisine, so we ate in a
Middle Eastern store front restaurant where the food used chiles that
were introduced into north Africa by the Spanish conquistadores.
Imagine that. The tajine I ordered was too damned spicy to finish.
>
> I've yet to see dishes like Al Pastor, anything with Mole on it, Lengua,
> Tripitas, Sesos,

Al pastor, lengua, and sesos are throw away meats to Americans. Poor
Mexicans eat that stuff because it's cheap.

Soul food is the same thing. Poor African Americans like my great great
grandfather ate ribs and neckbones and brains and bacon because the
White people ate the best cuts of meat and threw the rest away. The
Negros ( "Negro" was my great great great great grandmother's surname,
assigned to her by Spanish slavers) got the kidneys and the liver and
neckbones and tail and were happy with that, because it kept *body and
soul* together.

The only reason White people eat bacon nowadays is because the
advertising agencies realized they could market such trash meat to poor
Whites during the Great Depression. Now White people can have high
blood pressure too...

Do you begin to *get it* now? Mexican peasants eat tripe and pig's fit
because wealthy Mexicans DON'T eat that crap.

I ate *menudo* on Saturday to avoid offending a Mexican coworker. It
was the worst menudo I ever ate, but I ate it because she thought she
was doing us all a favor by bringing her mother's homemade tripe and
pigfeet stew to work. Other co-workers asked her to be sure to take the
remnants home with her. They wouldn't touch it.

99% of all Americans have *never* been to a multiple course Mexican
comida, consisting of a sopa and a seco, an ensalada, one hearty main
course (or maybe two smaller main courses) followed by a postre,
coffee, brandy, and cigars.

If tacos and tamales and enchiladas and chiles rellenos are served as
part of such a comida, they are there as *hors d'oeuvres", they aren't
a main course. Nobody would fill up on that crap.

What Americans think of as "authentic Mexican food" is what border
peasants eat because they have no money. That's why it's ludricous to
talk about "authenticity" here. The readership has no frame of
reference.

OTOH, if this was a NG about "soul food", everybody would know
*exactly* what was being discussed.

> I actually make better Tacos than what I've sampled here so far, and I
> am not Hispanic.

Dude. A "taco" is *anything* you can hold in your hand and eat without
utensils. A
peanut butter and jelly sandwich is an American "taco". A submarine
sandwich is an Italian taco.

Are you beginning to get it?

Sargeant Nick Balsack wrote:

> So Mexican immigrants flock to restaurants that don't serve "authentic" food
> they recognize, or don't serve food they grew up making to their
> compatriots?
>
> Evidently you haven't been to a Mexican restaurant in a Mexican barrio.

OK, so Mexican barrio restaurants remind Mexican immigrants of the
poverty they
grew up in, just like soul food restaurants remind African Americans of
being poor in the South. Both ethnic groups like to re-experience the
tastes and the family togetherness of the ethnic cooking of their
heritage, however impoverished they were
as children.

But the more adventurous diner is looking for something new. They want
a culinary adventure.If they have the money to buy a better experience,
they will flock to the newest theme restaurant to sample an exotic
taste.

It would be wonderful if this group could ever break out of the tacos
and the tamales and the tortillas and enchiladas and frijoles of the
border, but the oldtimers and newcomers don't seem to be able to look
past antojitos to discuss what upper class Mexicans might be eating in
Mexico City or Vera Cruz.

The memory of last night's Mexican food doesn't have to be all
heartburn and intestinal gas and an inflamed anus, yannow.

"El Pocho" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sargeant Nick Balsack wrote:
>
> > So Mexican immigrants flock to restaurants that don't serve "authentic"
food
> > they recognize, or don't serve food they grew up making to their
> > compatriots?
> >
> > Evidently you haven't been to a Mexican restaurant in a Mexican barrio.
>
> OK, so Mexican barrio restaurants remind Mexican immigrants of the
> poverty they
> grew up in, just like soul food restaurants remind African Americans of
> being poor in the South. Both ethnic groups like to re-experience the
> tastes and the family togetherness of the ethnic cooking of their
> heritage, however impoverished they were
> as children.
>
> But the more adventurous diner is looking for something new. They want
> a culinary adventure.If they have the money to buy a better experience,
> they will flock to the newest theme restaurant to sample an exotic
> taste.
>
> It would be wonderful if this group could ever break out of the tacos
> and the tamales and the tortillas and enchiladas and frijoles of the
> border, but the oldtimers and newcomers don't seem to be able to look
> past antojitos to discuss what upper class Mexicans might be eating in
> Mexico City or Vera Cruz.
>
> The memory of last night's Mexican food doesn't have to be all
> heartburn and intestinal gas and an inflamed anus, yannow.

Cringe... shudder... shake this guy's garbage off like water off a dog...
where does he come from?

El Pocho, you are a one of a kind bigot and don't know it. Just one recent
anecdote to bust your bubble of absolute ignorance. My extended family just
came back from celebrating my father-in-law's 90th birthday at his
retirement villa near Cuernavaca, in Oaxtepec. My extended family is half
Mexican, perhaps more so because I was raised in Mexico in the middle to
upper middle class environment and took on the cultural coloring. Our best
friends and famly rubbed elbows with the likes of Ricardo, Frida, El Sapo,
Chavela Vargas.... etc. What did we have for the grand celebration? What
fancy expensive ultra culinary meal did we all enjoy? A taquisa, you dumb
ass... tacos and rice and beans and salsas and a pastel de siete leches and
sopes and pelliscados...

Now, go preach your imaginary Mexico somewhere else.

Wayne, living in the paradise halfway between San Diego and Tijuana, in
sight of the Pacific Ocean and enjoying the cool sea-breeze when the days
are hot. Tending my avocado tree, lemon tree, orange tree and apple tree.
Cooking Mexican food every night for my family and friends. Fending off
idiots like you from the newsgroup when bored with other exciting activities
such as building robots to kick ass in Iraq.
>

Nope El Pocho, your wrong, if you assume you know what life I've lived,
and what food I've eaten.

I've had lots of hispanic friends in Chicago over the many yers, have
eaten in family's homes, and these people were originally from south of
the border.

I understand the comparisons you relate to, you're correct (to a point)
and it would be like an Italian eating real home cooked food, and then
comparing that to Ragu, or Chef Boy Ar Dee.

Truth is, those dishes you claim that are NOT eaten by "normal", or
perhaps you mean "real" Hispanics in truth are, every day.

In comparison also to American style food (which all americans eat
regardless of income), with Hot Dogs, and Hamburgers at one end of the
Spectrum, and let's say a prime Filet Mignon, or Maine Lobster at the
other.

I'll further say, one thing ommited from Mexican Cuisine (You call it
what you want my friend, and I'll call it what I want!) Is seafood.

Many don't realize just how really good fish, shrimp, and other seafood
delicacies are south of the border.

You are also correct, there is no solid definition of what consists of
"authentic". 100 Hispanic people could make Pollo en Mole, and it would
taste different with each person who makes-cooks it.
Cheers, Mark

"El Pocho" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sargeant Nick Balsack wrote:
>
>> So Mexican immigrants flock to restaurants that don't serve "authentic"
>> food
>> they recognize, or don't serve food they grew up making to their
>> compatriots?
>>
>> Evidently you haven't been to a Mexican restaurant in a Mexican barrio.
>
> OK, so Mexican barrio restaurants remind Mexican immigrants of the
> poverty they
> grew up in, just like soul food restaurants remind African Americans of
> being poor in the South. Both ethnic groups like to re-experience the
> tastes and the family togetherness of the ethnic cooking of their
> heritage, however impoverished they were
> as children.
>
> But the more adventurous diner is looking for something new. They want
> a culinary adventure.If they have the money to buy a better experience,
> they will flock to the newest theme restaurant to sample an exotic
> taste.
>
> It would be wonderful if this group could ever break out of the tacos
> and the tamales and the tortillas and enchiladas and frijoles of the
> border, but the oldtimers and newcomers don't seem to be able to look
> past antojitos to discuss what upper class Mexicans might be eating in
> Mexico City or Vera Cruz.
>
> The memory of last night's Mexican food doesn't have to be all
> heartburn and intestinal gas and an inflamed anus, yannow.

Pocho,

You seem to have a serious chip on your shoulder about poverty and bad
Mexican food. I assure you that the food I've had are not Burritos and
frijoles.

Next time you try to pretend to know what another person's experience has
been. Think twice. You are coming across as an arrogant ass and you need to
lighten the heck up.

Mark D wrote:

> You are also correct, there is no solid definition of what consists of
> "authentic". 100 Hispanic people could make Pollo en Mole, and it would
> taste different with each person who makes-cooks it.
> Cheers, Mark

Amen brother Mark. When I hear someone say "authentic Mexican food,"
I know right away his knowledge of the subject is limited.

Mark D wrote:

> I'll further say, one thing ommited from Mexican Cuisine (You call it
> what you want my friend, and I'll call it what I want!) Is seafood.
>
> Many don't realize just how really good fish, shrimp, and other seafood
> delicacies are south of the border.

Hey. You're smarter than I thought you were. But we can't talk about
mariscos in this group. It's limited to tacos and tamales and tortillas
and basic peasant food
and what the taconero's favorite taco stand is.
>
> You are also correct, there is no solid definition of what consists of
> "authentic". 100 Hispanic people could make Pollo en Mole, and it would
> taste different with each person who makes-cooks it.

There is NO requirement for anybody to be "hispanic" to make delicious
mole. You have to know what the heck mole is before you start, though.

How it tastes depends on how many ingredients you want to put in the
mole, and whether you brown the chicken before you boil it. I can make
delicious moles, but the taconeros that infest this NG don't want to
hear about moles.

Mole is a sauce, but when you read about moles in Mexican recipe books
you get the impression that "mole" is a certain specific dish. I can
make seven different Oaxahacan moles using chicken. Or beef. Or pork.
Or armadillo. Or whatever.

Wayne Lundberg wrote:

> Cringe... shudder... shake this guy's garbage off like water off a dog...
> where does he come from?

Oh, so now you're imagining that I'm a guy? Last year you thought I was
a girl.
>
> El Pocho, you are a one of a kind bigot and don't know it.

Wayne, you don't even know what a bigot is. Research the origins of the
word before you throw it around loosely. You may come to realize that
there were no bigots before there were Catholics.

> Just one recent
> anecdote to bust your bubble of absolute ignorance. My extended family just
> came back from celebrating my father-in-law's 90th birthday at his
> retirement villa near Cuernavaca, in Oaxtepec. My extended family is half
> Mexican, perhaps more so because I was raised in Mexico in the middle to
> upper middle class environment and took on the cultural coloring.

So what? Mexico and Spain are two of the most bigoted countries on the
planet.
The Spanish are still harboring grudges over their civil war in the
1930's.

Some of my ancestors fled Spain during the bigotry of the Spanish
Inquisition. They got to France and they suffered the injustices of the
Protestant Reformation. They got to America and they were thrown off
their land because they were dark skinned.

For a Hispanic to call *me* a "bigot" is ridiculous. Some of my cousins
are Mexicans, some are Negros, and some are White, but they all have
the same Spanish names.

> Now, go preach your imaginary Mexico somewhere else.

I'm not imagining *anything* about Mexico. By the way, one of my
Hispanic relatives was the American minister to Mexico who delivered
the Queretaro Protocol to the Mexican minister to sign.

The Queretaro Protocol changed the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo to
eliminate special protection for the Catholic church and eliminated the
prospect of full citizenship for Mexicans who remained in the Mexican
Cession of 1848.

I often wonder what he must have thought, as he faced the
representative of the bigoted Spaniards who had thrown his ancestors
out of Spain 250 years earlier.

Maybe he thought, "Now I've got you, you son of a bigot!"

Well thank you El Pocho for the compliment that I'm not totally out of
the mix.

As far as you correcting me in the past about Ground Beef being referred
to as "Mexican food", this I honestly do not recall, and I think you've
confused me with somebody else?

What I believe I do know, is that I do have a very discerning palate,
and am extremely fussy when it comes to food.

One of the "magics" of Mexican Food I've found, is thier incomparable
use of Chiles, either fresh, dried, powders etc., to make sauces,
salsas, and whatnot.

This I believe is one of the most imprtant keys, and aspects of very
good Mexican Food.
Much of this knowledge seems to be "secretly" passed from mother to
daughter, from father to son.

I'll agree, you can't lump sum Tacos, Tostada, Carne Asada, and other
common "Americanized" Mexican dishes as being true authentic.

None the less, much of this, just as Tortillas, Beans, and Rice are
staples of the Hispanic masses.

Agreed, I've eaten Menudo a few times, I don't care for it, no matter
how much Limon, Onions, Oregano I put on it.

Just like Chitlins, Ham Hocks, Greens, Cornbread are loved by Black
folks, these dishes I mentioned above, and previously are foods that
many "real" Mexican folk grew to love, were brought up on.

I wouldn't neccesarily call some of these foods "Peasant" foods, as some
are quite delicious indeed! Mark

"El Pocho" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Wayne Lundberg wrote:
>
> > Cringe... shudder... shake this guy's garbage off like water off a
dog...
> > where does he come from?
>
> Oh, so now you're imagining that I'm a guy? Last year you thought I was
> a girl.

Well, you claim to be Hispanic something or Latino something, yet you don't
even know that when you sign your name "El Pocho" you are telling everybody
you are a male and pocho n. an Americanized person or thing of Mexican
origin, including Americanized Mexican Spanish. Also adj. Related: quora,
laquear, buscone, Jorge Arbusto, dendenante, cuddie, cuff and stuff,
Spanglish, Spanish, Mexico, United States, Slang ...

Yes, you may be of Mexican origin, but you don't have a clue as to Mexican
food nor more importantly, Mexcian food culture. Lesson one:

Mexican culture revolves around the ceremony of food. Not once a day, nor
twice a week, but hourly. A business meeting will start with a cup of
chocolate and piece of sweet bread at 9. At 10 to 10:30 time will be taken
for a taquito. At noon a cart will be rolled in with beer, wine, Scotch,
Tequila, Brandy and munchies; this is to wet the appetite for the lunch will
be served from, say 2pm to say 4pm. A short meditation break (siesta) and
back to work until say 8pm, then a snack at 9 pm unless you did not have the
lunch, and if so, then you have your full meal at nine-ish.

But it's not just food. It's the sharing of the food, the discussion of it's
origins, the arguments as to it is Puebla Protocol or true Maya, Huasteca or
Jarocho. It's a break from business and time to simply share the joy of the
taste buds and time to see each other as we are.

To understand Mexican culture you must first understand the ceremony of
Mexican mealtimes, not just individual dishes.

Wayne

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:58:12 -0700, "Sargeant Nick Balsack"
> wrote:

>
>"ensenadajim" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:30:39 -0600, (Mark D) wrote:
>>
>>>Illinois, specifically the Pilsen / 26th Street area of Chicago, which
>>>has a huge Mexican population and has been that way for a long, long
>>>time.
>>>Some absolutely *authentic* Mexican restaurants. Representatives from
>>>nearly every state in Mexico.
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>I've lived in Chicago all my life, up until three years ago, as I now
>>>live in South Central New Mexico (Alamogordo)
>>>
>>>Since I lived in NM, I've yet to eat a good Taco, Tamale, Burrito,
>>>Tostada, Carne Asada like anything which I had eaten in Illinois.
>>>
>>>New Mexican people just don't believe this though, and they think thier
>>>food is the best. I don't! While I'm not Mexican, I don't see New
>>>Mexican Food being anything like what I feel is true Mexican Cuisine.
>>>
>>>Perhaps there are some good eateries in Santa Fe-ALB, but certainly not
>>>here, and certainly not in Juarez, Mexico, as I've been there, and eaten
>>>a few times, and the food isn't acceptable for a dog to eat in Juarez.
>>>
>>>I've yet to see dishes like Al Pastor, anything with Mole on it, Lengua,
>>>Tripitas, Sesos, or even a facsimile of Barbacoa in NM. Just miserable
>>>tasting ground beef, shredded beef (Which is probably some from of cheap
>>>Brisket), and maybe Chicken.
>>>
>>>Naturally in NM Green Chile goes on everything, and that is the Staple
>>>Food of NM.
>>>Chile Rellenos here are made with NM Green Chile. I've yet to see them
>>>made with Poblano Chiles here (Which I personally prefer).
>>>
>>>People stand shocked, and in amazement here, when I tell them that in
>>>Chicago, the Hispanic population is virtually double the entire
>>>population of the State of NM!
>>>
>>>Places in Chicago like Nuevo Leon on 18th St. and El Milagro on Blue
>>>Island make more what I consider to be true "Mexican" Cuisine.
>>>
>>>I actually make better Tacos than what I've sampled here so far, and I
>>>am not Hispanic.
>>>Mark
>>
>>
>> It is your frame of reference that is operating here - as it is for
>> most of us. Unless you have been to Mexico, it is doubtful you have
>> had the real thing. Almost everything in the US has been
>> "Americanized" to some degree or another be it in Chicago, San Diego
>> or New Mexico. I suspect that you are looking in all the wrong places
>> for your food in NM.
>
>So Mexican immigrants flock to restaurants that don't serve "authentic" food
>they recognize, or don't serve food they grew up making to their
>compatriots?
>
>Evidently you haven't been to a Mexican restaurant in a Mexican barrio.
>


I have been to many of them. One of the best known in the San Diego
area is Las Quatras Milpas. Does not get any simpler than that. It is
a matter of a few things which have escaped your radar screen - like
the use of lard for frying. VERY hard to find places that use it in
their flour tortillas or for frying in the US. Still fairly common in
Mexico - and I have been to places there that have made the switch.

Now do you get it?


jim

Wayne Lundberg wrote:

> Well, you claim to be Hispanic something or Latino something, yet you don't
> even know that when you sign your name "El Pocho" you are telling everybody
> you are a male and pocho n. an Americanized person or thing of Mexican
> origin, including Americanized Mexican Spanish. Also adj. Related: quora,
> laquear, buscone, Jorge Arbusto, dendenante, cuddie, cuff and stuff,
> Spanglish, Spanish, Mexico, United States, Slang ...

So. What can you imagine about my new handle?

> Mexican culture revolves around the ceremony of food.

No, it does not. It revolves around centuries old concepts of caste and
class.

There were fifteen different castes and classes in colonial Mexico,
with the white Spaniards on top and every other caste and class beneath
them in the pecking order.

This colonial social order is still operative in Mexico today, with the
light-skinned Mexicans on top and the dark-skinned Mexicans on the
bottom. Oh, you can point out the fact that this or that
post-independence president of Mexican was an Indio or a Mulato, but,
by and large, a Mexican's skin color still limits his opportunity.

The Spaniard was *white*, he was on top. The people who had converted
from Islam or Judaism and remained faithful to the Catholic church were
the "Castizos" (puriified ones). They were second class citizens of the
Spanish empire.

Those Castizos who lapsed into their older religious practices were
anathematized. They were exiled from the Catholic world and from areas
of Spanish governance.
My ancestors and relatives who fled Spain could not go to Mexico or any
region ruled by Spain, so they came to Maryland, where racial and
religious tolerance was practiced.

The third class colonial citizen was the Mestizo. He was the product of
a union between a Spaniard or a Castizo and an Indian woman.

The colonial Spanish had an entire eugenics chart of what the results
would be if people of the various castes and classes should marry and
produce children. The resulting child had a caste, class, and animal
nickname.

Yes, the white Spanish talked about lower caste people as if they were
dogs. One caste of colonial citizens was actually called a "throwback".
If you don't believe this, look it up on the Internet.

The Mestizos were third class citizens of Mexico, their animal nickname
was "Coyote", and their type of citizenship depended on whether they
lived like a European or if they lived like their Indian parent.

The Mestizo was either a "gente de razon", or a "gente sin razon". If
he lived as an Indian, he could not conduct a business, own property,
or move freely about the country.

Some of my mixed race ancestors would have been called "Mules" by the
white Spaniards because they were part African. Others would have been
called "Swine", because they lapsed into practicing the religion of
their ancestors.

My realtives who were forced to flee Spain couldn't go anywhere in the
Spanish empire because they were considered to be heretics by the
Catholic church. The priests conducting the inquisition were often of
the same ethnic group as those they were persecuting for heresy.

> Not once a day, nor twice a week, but hourly. A business meeting will start with
> a cup of chocolate and piece of sweet bread at 9. At 10 to 10:30 time will be taken
> for a taquito. At noon a cart will be rolled in with beer, wine, Scotch,
> Tequila, Brandy and munchies; this is to wet the appetite for the lunch will
> be served from, say 2pm to say 4pm. A short meditation break (siesta) and
> back to work until say 8pm, then a snack at 9 pm unless you did not have the
> lunch, and if so, then you have your full meal at nine-ish.

Do you honestly imagine that it's any different in the American
business environment? Don't American businessmen have coffee breaks and
don't they take three martini lunches? Don't the vice presidents and
top managers lock their doors and take a nap after lunch in American
businesses where you've worked?
>
> But it's not just food. It's the sharing of the food, the discussion of it's
> origins, the arguments as to it is Puebla Protocol or true Maya, Huasteca or
> Jarocho. It's a break from business and time to simply share the joy of the
> taste buds and time to see each other as we are.

How is that different from what business professionals do in America?
Don't they stand around half the day talking about their golf handicaps
or their tennis elbows? Aren't American businessmen eager to slough off
the tedium of business and don't they spend their time trying to find
new buddies to bowl with or spend their time scheming on how to get in
the new secretery's pants?
>
> To understand Mexican culture you must first understand the ceremony of
> Mexican mealtimes, not just individual dishes.

This newsgroup is about Mexican *cooking*. We want to duplicate the
mysterious tastes of Mexican food *at home*, we aren't trying to import
the whole Mexican culture and its rituals.

Besides, the rituals of Mexican culture depend entirely on which caste
and class the individual Mexican belongs to. Whether any particular
Mexican eats a pan dulce at a table with a white linen tablecloth or
eats it while squatting on his heels in a lettuce field depends
entirely on his caste and class.

Mark D wrote:

> What I believe I do know, is that I do have a very discerning palate,
> and am extremely fussy when it comes to food.

Fussy, huh? It figures.

There is no shortage of anal retentive users on the Internet, but you
are welcome to post here if you really want to learn about Mexican
cooking or you have some tips to share about the subject.

Do you just want to offer opinions and debate? Opinions are like
assholes, everybody has one, but I will never show you mine, so forget
it.

And arguments are endless, they don't even get the cochinita pibil into
the hole.
>
> One of the "magics" of Mexican Food I've found, is thier incomparable
> use of Chiles, either fresh, dried, powders etc., to make sauces,
> salsas, and whatnot.

There is nothing "magic" about Mexican cooking, a Geico cave man could
do it, if he could read or was shown how to do it one time.
>
> This I believe is one of the most imprtant keys, and aspects of very
> good Mexican Food.
> Much of this knowledge seems to be "secretly" passed from mother to
> daughter, from father to son.

Baloney. A Negro staff sergeant in the Air Force taught me how to make
enchiladas in about five minutes. All the officers in the mess enjoyed
them immensely.

> None the less, much of this, just as Tortillas, Beans, and Rice are
> staples of the Hispanic masses.

No kidding. They eat that stuff because that's all they can afford. Why
make a mystique of peasant food? I saw a sign on a bulletin board in
Mexico which described how peasants could buy 40 pounds of rice and
beans and harina de triga for $10. Mexico had a surplus of that stuff
so they could afford to distribute it to the peasants.

> I wouldn't neccesarily call some of these foods "Peasant" foods, as some
> are quite delicious indeed!

I would call most cheap, greasy bland food, "peasant food". Cabbage
soup and borsch are Russian peasant foods. Would you go to a Russian
theme restaurant and make a meal of black bread, cabbage soup and
borsch, or would you order the sturgeon and caviar?

Would you run home and post a message on the Internet about who has the
best cabbage soup in the city?

On 26 Sep 2006 07:40:24 -0700, "Isadore Lipschitz"
> wrote:

>
>Wayne Lundberg wrote:
>
>> Well, you claim to be Hispanic something or Latino something, yet you don't
>> even know that when you sign your name "El Pocho" you are telling everybody
>> you are a male and pocho n. an Americanized person or thing of Mexican
>> origin, including Americanized Mexican Spanish. Also adj. Related: quora,
>> laquear, buscone, Jorge Arbusto, dendenante, cuddie, cuff and stuff,
>> Spanglish, Spanish, Mexico, United States, Slang ...
>
>So. What can you imagine about my new handle?

I see muddy people wrestling with a pig that is enjoying the process.