Would hate to live without my 'fridge (and freezer compartment). But
this convenience has only been available for maybe 70 yrs -- a
eyeblink in historical time. I know that rural folk in the US had root
cellars and often harvested ice from a pond to supply an underground
facility of some sort, but what did regular ol' people do in, say,
London or NYC to store food? I've always thought of daily shopping as
a charming habit of the French, but people lived in hot climates with
no refrigeration for most of human history. What are historical
foodstuffs that could be preserved for more than a couple of days? Is
fresh milk common? How 'bout the current emphasis on fresh veg/fruit?
What *can* be kept without refrigeration?

On 2/8/04 5:18 PM, in article ,
"Frogleg" wrote:

Would hate to live without my 'fridge (and freezer compartment). But
this convenience has only been available for maybe 70 yrs -- a
eyeblink in historical time. I know that rural folk in the US had root
cellars and often harvested ice from a pond to supply an underground
facility of some sort, but what did regular ol' people do in, say,
London or NYC to store food?

Icebox in some cases - ice would be delivered on a weekly basis. You can
see them in some antique shops/junk shops in the US sometimes.

The rest was preserved food - an ancestor of mine lived on a barrel of
pickled herring while at University in the 1870's. Dried, and preserved,
canned food in most cases, too. An in season the market would have some
fresh foods, too.

I've always thought of daily shopping as
a charming habit of the French, but people lived in hot climates with
no refrigeration for most of human history. What are historical
foodstuffs that could be preserved for more than a couple of days?

Dried beans, rice, meat. Pickled vegetables, canned foods as well later on.

Is
fresh milk common? How 'bout the current emphasis on fresh veg/fruit?
What *can* be kept without refrigeration?

Good question. I know curry can cover up the taste of "off" meats -
probably not the primary use, but it still works for this well.

The knowledge about a balanced diet is relatively recent, too - people
pretty much ate what was available.

Bonjour Frogleg,

Well I know that a lot of stuff was preserved: dried fruit, salted meat
etc. Honey and salt are both extremely good preservatives, as is
fermentation. Hence alcohol (also kills bugs in the water), yogurt and
cheese. Keeping things under oil also works. Our wonderful gourmet
sun-dried tomatoes in olive oil is a very effective way to keep them for
several months. Pickling is also worth a mention. So a huge raft of
fresh food can have their shelf-life extended.

Here in the UK pasturised milk is standard but in the rest of Europe UHT
seams to be the norm and a lot of yogurt is drunk too. (This annoys me
on holiday cause tea with UHT milk is not the same as pasturised.)

The other thing about diets long ago is that they were a lot more
seasonal. You only got fruit and veg when they were in season and grown
locally.

In victorian times the big houses had ice houses but that is the first
refrigeration I know about in the UK.

What I wonder about is what did the Italians cook before America and
particularly the tomato was discovered?

Yours,
Helen

Note: The email address has a bit of a fudge in it.

On 2/8/04 6:45 PM, in article
, "Helen McElroy"
wrote:

What I wonder about is what did the Italians cook before America and
particularly the tomato was discovered?

I read about a recipe for pasta pre-tomato - had butter, olive oil and
parmisano-reggiano cheese on it. Sounds good - but I could see that if this
recipe were accurate why Tomoato sauce took over!

Does anyone know if pesto or Alfredo sauce was pre Marinera?

In article , Bromo
wrote:

On 2/8/04 6:45 PM, in article
, "Helen McElroy"
wrote:

What I wonder about is what did the Italians cook before America and
particularly the tomato was discovered?

I read about a recipe for pasta pre-tomato - had butter, olive oil and
parmisano-reggiano cheese on it. Sounds good - but I could see that if this
recipe were accurate why Tomoato sauce took over!

It didn't. Tomato sauce in Naples is only one of many, many ways to eat
pasta. Pasta con ceci, pasta e fagioli (pasta with chickpeas, pasta
with borlotti beans) for example. Pasta e burro (which is what you
describe) is still common now. So is pasta con aglio, olio e
pepperencino - with garlic, oil and chile.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Frogleg wrote:

Would hate to live without my 'fridge (and freezer compartment). But
this convenience has only been available for maybe 70 yrs -- a
eyeblink in historical time. I know that rural folk in the US had root
cellars and often harvested ice from a pond to supply an underground
facility of some sort, but what did regular ol' people do in, say,
London or NYC to store food?

I can talk about central New Jersey in the 40's.

The ice man came around in his covered truck with the thick walls
every fifth or sixth day in the winter (some people froze their own
then) and every other day in the summer. He would cut off a piece just
the right size to fit in my grandparents' ice box. Sometimes when the
weather was hot, he'd give the kids slivers of that thrillingly cold
ice to suck on and cool off.

I've always thought of daily shopping as
a charming habit of the French, but people lived in hot climates with
no refrigeration for most of human history.

That may be why "bread is the staff of life." It would stale but it
wouldn't spoil dangerously. There were neighborhood stores back then
that carried commodity inventories. Butcher shops. Bakeries.
Greengrocers. All separate, so shopping was an expedition. And each
store took longer than today because the storekeepers retrieved the
stuff rather than the customers. You told them what you wanted and
they walked to get it. Typically, they wrote the prices down on the
paper bag you were going to take your groceries home in and totaled
the order at the end. All cash or on a tab to pay later.

What are historical
foodstuffs that could be preserved for more than a couple of days?

Family and friends canned and dried foods in season to use the rest of
the year. Dried, salted beef and other meats.

Is
fresh milk common?

Milked our own until we moved into the city. Then it was delivered
every third day. Also delivered were baked goods from a company called
"Dugan's."

How 'bout the current emphasis on fresh veg/fruit?

Lots of seasonal stuff. Roots and leaves like spinach in winter. Fruit
from the cold room. Potatoes, onions, apples, tomatoes hung from the
rafters still connected to the vines. Killed chickens as needed and as
they outlived their egg-producing lives.

What *can* be kept without refrigeration?

Oil-packed confits (chicken, duck, goose, red meats), pickled anything
(pig's feet, etc.), dried anything (apples, peaches, tomatoes, green
beans, fish, etc.). Grains like wheat berries and cracked corn for
polenta. Dried salamis and sausages. Some cheeses. Tomato paste (juice
and pulp cooked way down) packed into 1/2 pint jars and canned. Dry
cookies (biscotti, etc.).

Pastorio

"Bromo" wrote in message
...
On 2/8/04 6:45 PM, in article
, "Helen McElroy"
wrote:

What I wonder about is what did the Italians cook before America and
particularly the tomato was discovered?

I read about a recipe for pasta pre-tomato - had butter, olive oil and
parmisano-reggiano cheese on it. Sounds good - but I could see that if
this
recipe were accurate why Tomoato sauce took over!

Does anyone know if pesto or Alfredo sauce was pre Marinera?

There is no such thing as Alfredo sauce. If you are referring to the dish
Fettuccine Al' Alfredo, it was invented by Alfredo at his restaurant in Rome
in the 1920s. It has nothing in it BTW which requires refrigeration. Just
the butter needs to be kept cool. For more information check he
http://www.ristorantealfredo1907.com/

Pesto does predate the arrival of the tomato - actually it almost certainly
predates the Romans and a bunch of other cultures.

Charlie

What are historical foodstuffs that could be preserved for more
than a couple of days?
Family and friends canned and dried foods in season to use the rest
of the year. Dried, salted beef and other meats.

Eggs - untreated, a few weeks; preserved with a sealant like isinglass,
a few months.


What *can* be kept without refrigeration?
Oil-packed confits (chicken, duck, goose, red meats), pickled anything
(pig's feet, etc.), dried anything (apples, peaches, tomatoes, green
beans, fish, etc.). Grains like wheat berries and cracked corn for
polenta. Dried salamis and sausages. Some cheeses. Tomato paste (juice
and pulp cooked way down) packed into 1/2 pint jars and canned. Dry
cookies (biscotti, etc.).

For an expanded list in that spirit from around here in about 1812,
look at the rhyming catalogue "My Shop Bill" by the poet-shopkeeper
Peter Forbes of Dalkeith, on my "Music of Dalkeith" pages. (Forbes
saw himself as a spinoff of Burns, and was probably the inventor of
Burns Night).

It's hard to read to the end without drooling and you certainly can't
buy most of that at Tesco or Lidl in Dalkeith now. Refrigeration might
have reduced the diversity of products on sale as much as it widened it;
labour-intensive preservation techniques became economically unviable.

======== Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce ========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:45:56 +0000, Helen McElroy
wrote:

Well I know that a lot of stuff was preserved: dried fruit, salted meat
etc. Honey and salt are both extremely good preservatives, as is
fermentation. Hence alcohol (also kills bugs in the water), yogurt and
cheese. Keeping things under oil also works. Our wonderful gourmet
sun-dried tomatoes in olive oil is a very effective way to keep them for
several months. Pickling is also worth a mention. So a huge raft of
fresh food can have their shelf-life extended.

The other thing about diets long ago is that they were a lot more
seasonal. You only got fruit and veg when they were in season and grown
locally.

In victorian times the big houses had ice houses but that is the first
refrigeration I know about in the UK.

Yes, but what did, say, the Dickens family and their neighbors eat? It
appears that 'historic' and 'traditional' recipes must have been
*severely* limited. And/or cooking and shopping a truly full-time job.

Milk can't be kept for long. Soft cheeses, too, are highly perishable.
Any sort of fresh meat, fish, or poultry. Most fresh veg, outside of
the 'root' category. There must have been a lot of dependence on
grains and beans, which can be stored for quite some time. And
'preserved' everything. No wonder spices were so prized!

Frogleg muttered....

Would hate to live without my 'fridge (and freezer compartment). But
this convenience has only been available for maybe 70 yrs -- a
eyeblink in historical time. I know that rural folk in the US had root
cellars and often harvested ice from a pond to supply an underground
facility of some sort, but what did regular ol' people do in, say,
London or NYC to store food? I've always thought of daily shopping as
a charming habit of the French, but people lived in hot climates with
no refrigeration for most of human history. What are historical
foodstuffs that could be preserved for more than a couple of days? Is
fresh milk common? How 'bout the current emphasis on fresh veg/fruit?
What *can* be kept without refrigeration?

Oysters, amazingly, last longer than you might estimate (asnd were very
popular in the US Midwest/Southwest far from the sea.

.....an interesting side note:

In the US Southwest, the Busch family of St. Louis, owners of the brewery
of the same name, contributed greatly to the spread of ice for home use.
In the 1880s or thereabouts, the company built ice plants in cities spaced
along the major rail lines which carried there then unpasteurized beer to
local markets. Chilled beer in barrels travels well. Hot beer went bad
quickly and might even explode. Extra ice from the ammonia process ice
plants wasa profitable and popular sideline.

At about the same time, the family had built in Dallas, a growing city, the
still existent Adolphus Hotel, named for a family member

"Bromo" a écrit dans le message de
...
On 2/8/04 5:18 PM, in article ,
"Frogleg" wrote:

I've always thought of daily shopping as
a charming habit of the French, but people lived in hot climates with
no refrigeration for most of human history. What are historical
foodstuffs that could be preserved for more than a couple of days?

Dried beans, rice, meat. Pickled vegetables, canned foods as well later
on.

Pressure and heat canning was invented by Mr. Nicolas Appert around 1792
IIRC, before then there was no canned food as we know them.
But they had a surprising variety of ways of preserving most anything :
Smoking, Drying, Salting, Pickling in vinegar or brine, cooking with
sugar - honey, fermentation, etc... which can be applied to a surprising
variety of foodstuffs. One need not, evene now, have a refrigerator to live
quite well, when one knows the tricks.

Is
fresh milk common? How 'bout the current emphasis on fresh veg/fruit?

Yes, at that time man-hours weren't so expensive, and among lots of
'little' occupations you could find people selling goods from door to door,
even such common goods as milk or water.

What *can* be kept without refrigeration?

Most everything with the appropriate treatment, Cf. supra

Good question. I know curry can cover up the taste of "off" meats -
probably not the primary use, but it still works for this well.

It was most clearly not, you have recipies in the 'ménagier de Paris',
inter alii, to gauge the freshness of a cut and salvage *slightly* off
meat, with a very clear recommendation that in doubt the whole cut should
be tossed away without hesitation.

The knowledge about a balanced diet is relatively recent, too - people
pretty much ate what was available.

Absolutely not, the knowledge about a balanced diet is a very old concern
indeed, even the roman have a few theories about the question. They may not
be as scientific nor as efficient as ours, but a cook from roman times on
would have known which spice to add to what item, how to balance foodstuffs
in a meal and so on...
That is not to deny that most everyone ate most whatever was available, and
couldn't be so picky about their diet for lack of income, but to the
learned and the affluent the knowledge was there.

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Château du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

In article , Olivers
wrote:

Oysters, amazingly, last longer than you might estimate (asnd were very
popular in the US Midwest/Southwest far from the sea.

Indeed. I buy them often from Cuan, in Strangford Lough in Ireland.
They supply all the supermarkets in the UK and most of the main
restaurants throughout the far east. The interesting thing is that they
are not refrigerated. They will keep for about ten days without
refrigeration, because they stay alive. If an oyster's alive, it's
okay. If it's dead, it ain't. (This is partly why I said something rude
to someone on this ng about stewed oysters. I know they're okay if
they're in the shell, and not otherwise.)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

..

The knowledge about a balanced diet is relatively recent, too - people
pretty much ate what was available.

Absolutely not, the knowledge about a balanced diet is a very old concern
indeed

I totally agree. One of the curious things about spending a lot of
one's time travelling in the very poor parts of the world is that poor
people, unless they sink into famine, generally know how to eat a very
balanced diet indeed. And to make it taste very good too.

I'm afraid that the one area that I and the crews I work with (I've
travelled across Central Asia and Central Africa with them) dread to
have to go to because of food which tastes horrid and is unhealthy
is....

Sorry. I can't say it.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:18:31 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

Would hate to live without my 'fridge (and freezer compartment).

This has been an interesting discussion. I realized I keep a lot of
things in the 'fridge that might be stored at room temperature (but
*not* in July :-)

I'm now considering the question in the light of convenience. That is,
before domestic refrigeration/freezing, a good part of each day's
meals would have to be cooked and eaten on that day. Nothing like
having a turkey sandwich in January from slices frozen in November, or
economizing on effort and expense by cooking two casserole dishes and
freezing one. Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
'off' rather quickly.

We have whole cookbooks of 'leftover' recipes, based on the idea that
Tuesday's roast becomes Thursday's hash, and Sunday's chicken,
Wednesday's chicken salad.

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

And clean and wash and iron and sew and...

That's why domestic help was much more common back then. It wasn't a luxury;
it was a necessity.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com