On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:31:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
'off' rather quickly.

The food safety folk (quite rightly) are being conservative in their
warnings. "When in doubt, throw it out".

There's also a difference between food left overnight on a counter in
a warm kitchen, and food put away in a cool cellar (or pickled or
potted). We know that medieval people did eat leftovers. There are
cookbooks with recipes that use cold roast meat, and other recipes
that say things like, "And this pie will keep for four days...".

Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
inexperienced young bride.) The food section of the book is online
at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Mediev.../Menagier.html

He says things like, "a hare is good for 15 days in winter, but 7 or 8
days in summer, if kept out of the sun". He also makes a lot of
references to salted meats.

Four centuries later, Mrs. Beeton is making similar statements.

"BUTTER may be kept fresh for ten or twelve days by a very simple
process. Knead it well in cold water till the buttermilk is extracted;
then put it in a glazed jar, which invert in another, putting into the
latter a sufficient quantity of water to exclude the air. Renew the
water every day."

"Have ready a large saucepan, capable of holding 3 or 4 quarts, full
of boiling water. Put the eggs into a cabbage-net, say 20 at a time,
and hold them in the water (which must be kept boiling) for 20
seconds. Proceed in this manner till you have done as many eggs as you
wish to preserve; then pack them away in sawdust. We have tried this
method of preserving eggs, and can vouch for its excellence: they will
be found, at the end of 2 or 3 months, quite good enough for culinary
purposes; and although the white may be a little tougher than that of
a new-laid egg, the yolk will be nearly the same. Many persons keep
eggs for a long time by smearing the shells with butter or sweet oil:
they should then be packed in plenty of bran or sawdust, and the eggs
not allowed to touch each other."

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au...ton/household/


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

"Frogleg" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:18:31 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

Would hate to live without my 'fridge (and freezer compartment).

This has been an interesting discussion. I realized I keep a lot of
things in the 'fridge that might be stored at room temperature (but
*not* in July :-)

I'm now considering the question in the light of convenience. That is,
before domestic refrigeration/freezing, a good part of each day's
meals would have to be cooked and eaten on that day. Nothing like
having a turkey sandwich in January from slices frozen in November, or
economizing on effort and expense by cooking two casserole dishes and
freezing one. Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
'off' rather quickly.

Last nights unrefrigerated pasta will not be dubious this evening, and even
the meat sauce if well cooked, stored in as small a jar as possible with a
closed lid (to minimise oxydation and contamination) will hold very well
for a day or two out of the fridge, if you have a cool spot to put it in.
Evidently if you mixed the sauce in the pasta and leave everything in the
serving dish on the counter in august (or in an overheated flat) you get a
dessicated mess overnight, which won't kill you if you can chew it ;-)

Let's not forget that conditions of life were quite different then from
now, and that people knew far better what could be held, in what
conditions, and how long. And let's also not forget that these people were
raised in conditions of hygiene that were far less stringent than they are
today, and so could far better cope with the slight contamination levels
they faced and modern sanitation practices (and they are far more stringent
in the USA than in most of Europe) lowered our tolerance level to these
contaminants. (I don't say it's bad.) I just remember that in the 1970s
still some things were routinely done to food that would be absolutely out
today.

We have whole cookbooks of 'leftover' recipes, based on the idea that
Tuesday's roast becomes Thursday's hash, and Sunday's chicken,
Wednesday's chicken salad.

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

Absolutely not, a lot of cooked meals can be kept a few days without
refrigeration if you respect these basic rules :
- If you at all can, use a preservation method, canning, laying underwater,
coating with fat, honey or salt, dessicate... etc.
- Keep different items separate
- Pack tightly in as small a jar as will fit, trying not to leave pockets
of air in the product
- Cover lightly, not airtight
- Store cool and far from drafts
- Know well the tolerance of your products, some hold overnight, some hold
a few days and some hold a few weeks.

And most cookbooks before refrigeration give the tolerance of the finished
product, stating how long the product keeps.*

Hope this helps,

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Château du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

In article ,
Robin Carroll-Mann . wrote:

Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
inexperienced young bride.)

Very late 14th century, actually.

--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:58:35 GMT, Robin Carroll-Mann
. wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:31:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
'off' rather quickly.

There's also a difference between food left overnight on a counter in
a warm kitchen, and food put away in a cool cellar (or pickled or
potted). We know that medieval people did eat leftovers. There are
cookbooks with recipes that use cold roast meat, and other recipes
that say things like, "And this pie will keep for four days...".

Yeah, but...how many urbanites have a "cool cellar," then or now?
Right now, it's about 40F outside (and not a great deal warmer
indoors, considering the price of natural gas), and quite possible to
stick a secure box in a shady spot to store that 4-day pie. Come the
end of July, when the average high temperature is 89F (32C) and the
low not much cooler, "this pie" would last about 45 minutes
unrefrigerated before growing fur. A lot of these historic
cookbook/household books come from northern Europe where "room
temperature" to which red wine was to be warmed was about 55F (13C).

Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
inexperienced young bride.)

Ahh. Trust a man to tell a woman what to do...


The food section of the book is online
at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Mediev.../Menagier.html

He says things like, "a hare is good for 15 days in winter, but 7 or 8
days in summer, if kept out of the sun". He also makes a lot of
references to salted meats.

Interesting site. Thanks for the URL.

Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.

Four centuries later, Mrs. Beeton is making similar statements.

"BUTTER may be kept fresh for ten or twelve days by a very simple
process. Knead it well in cold water till the buttermilk is extracted;
then put it in a glazed jar, which invert in another, putting into the
latter a sufficient quantity of water to exclude the air. Renew the
water every day."

Yes, new "butter bells" are sold today. A friend with a rural past
mentioned keeping milk bottles in bowls of water. Evaporative cooling
is common in low-humidity areas. I very much doubt whether 85 degree
water in 55% humidity would significantly cool/preserve anything.

"Have ready a large saucepan, capable of holding 3 or 4 quarts, full
of boiling water. Put the eggs into a cabbage-net, say 20 at a time,
and hold them in the water (which must be kept boiling) for 20
seconds....

Yeah, but...would you want to make an omelet from them?

I guess my original point was that (obviously) people have been able
to survive and be nourished for millennia without domestic
refrigeration, but it's sure a lot easier today (happy dance). I
always quite liked chipped beef on toast (when it was real beef, not a
sort of thin-sliced sausage), but I'm not sure I'd like it every day.
In fact, I thoroughly enjoy the option of having a variety of foods
and ingredients every day.

I have a minor interest in 'seasonal' local foods in preference to
Mexican tomatoes in December, but I suppose I don't want to be limited
to potatoes and cabbage all winter long. My supermarket eggs keep for
a month or more. My (refrigerated) leftovers are edible for several
days. I can nearly always buy fresh milk and meat and not have to
consume them on the spot. Or preserve them.

We are very fortunate, foodwise.

In article , Robin
Carroll-Mann . wrote:

There's also a difference between food left overnight on a counter in
a warm kitchen, and food put away in a cool cellar (or pickled or
potted).

I couldn't agree more. Every french family, as well as having a fridge,
tries, if it can, to have what they call a "cave". You can only
translate this as "cellar", but what it really means is a cool place
with a constant temperature where you keep vegetables, fruits and
cheese. In my London apartment I use a place under the front stoop
where they used to keep coal. (I don't even have a freezer).

I find that French cheeses bought in supermarkets only become edible
after one or two weeks in my "cave". I buy my vegetables once a week,
and keep them there. Much better than a fridge.
The wine is just beside them, and the two are the same temperature.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article , Frogleg
wrote:

Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.

If you lived in the country it wouldn't take that much work to dig some
sort of cellar.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article , Christophe Bachmann
wrote:

a lot of cooked meals can be kept a few days without
refrigeration if you respect these basic rules :
- If you at all can, use a preservation method, canning, laying underwater,
coating with fat, honey or salt, dessicate... etc.
- Keep different items separate
- Pack tightly in as small a jar as will fit, trying not to leave pockets
of air in the product
- Cover lightly, not airtight
- Store cool and far from drafts
- Know well the tolerance of your products, some hold overnight, some hold
a few days and some hold a few weeks.

I'd agree with all this, but I'd add, don't keep meat stored in a
plastic bag. Don't even allow the butcher to give it to you.

As I said above, I don't own a freezer, and apart from the fact that I
occasionally catch salmon that I'd like to keep, I don't miss one.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:33:59 GMT, David Friedman
wrote:

In article ,
Robin Carroll-Mann . wrote:

Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
inexperienced young bride.)

Very late 14th century, actually.

True. That's what I get for writing from memory instead of
double-checking.


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:39:08 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

In article , Frogleg
wrote:

Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.

If you lived in the country it wouldn't take that much work to dig some
sort of cellar.

In the American midwest those cellars served two purposes. Year
'round root cellar and warm weather tornado shelter. Some are simply
dug a foot or two into the ground with a door slanted up the mound of
earth that's then put over it. Where there were actual basements
(upper midwest) there were frequently dug out chambers with the walls
left as earth and a door separating them from the main basement to be
used as the root cellar.
--
rbc: vixen Fairly harmless

Hit reply to email. But strip out the 'invalid.'
Though I'm very slow to respond.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:39:08 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
wrote:

In article , Frogleg
wrote:

Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.

If you lived in the country it wouldn't take that much work to dig some
sort of cellar.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. :-) My original post
specified non-rural living. People have been clumping up in cities for
millennia, far from root cellars.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:50:05 +0100, "Christophe Bachmann"
wrote:

Last nights unrefrigerated pasta will not be dubious this evening, and even
the meat sauce if well cooked, stored in as small a jar as possible with a
closed lid (to minimise oxydation and contamination) will hold very well
for a day or two out of the fridge, if you have a cool spot to put it in.

Two points: A "cool spot" may be hard to come by in many
climates/seasons. Since I was thinking about the era before
refrigeration, it would also be before air-conditioning, which usually
isn't used to cool lower than about 70F anyhow. Second, food storage
guidelines, conservative to be sure, in the US dictate that cooked and
many raw foods can be kept between 40F and 140F (4C to 60C) for no
longer than 4 hours to avoid possibly harmful bacterial growth. These
'rules' are guidelines for home food storage and requirements for
restaurants. While my house is quite cold, it's all well above 4C,
except in the 'fridge.

Let's not forget that conditions of life were quite different then from
now, and that people knew far better what could be held, in what
conditions, and how long.

Hmmm. They knew "far better" about the causes and effects of
food-borne illness (and death)? I don't think so. Scientists and
researchers had a hard time selling the 'germ theory' about the cause
and spread of disease -- how could something you can't see hurt you?
The world before knowledge of 'germs' was far from germ-free.

And let's also not forget that these people were
raised in conditions of hygiene that were far less stringent than they are
today, and so could far better cope with the slight contamination levels
they faced and modern sanitation practices (and they are far more stringent
in the USA than in most of Europe) lowered our tolerance level to these
contaminants. (I don't say it's bad.) I just remember that in the 1970s
still some things were routinely done to food that would be absolutely out
today.

I agree that over-sanitation/sterilization has gotten way out of hand,
and also that naturally-acquired immunity from mild exposure to many
diseases may indeed be beneficial. In fact, as far as I've been able
to determine, deaths and even serious illness (in the west) from food
sources is rather rare. However, just because something looks and
smells OK doesn't mean it isn't growing tiny critters.

We have whole cookbooks of 'leftover' recipes, based on the idea that
Tuesday's roast becomes Thursday's hash, and Sunday's chicken,
Wednesday's chicken salad.

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

Absolutely not, a lot of cooked meals can be kept a few days without
refrigeration if you respect these basic rules :

- If you at all can, use a preservation method, canning, laying underwater,
coating with fat, honey or salt, dessicate... etc.

Yes, this is true of preserving foods. Does not apply to Sunday's
roast chicken. My (most recent) contention is that it would have been
a whole lot of *work* to not be able to shove something in the 'fridge
for a few days (or freezer for a couple of months).

- Store cool and far from drafts

"Far from drafts?" Is this leftover meat sauce or a parekeet? :-)

- Know well the tolerance of your products, some hold overnight, some hold
a few days and some hold a few weeks.

I certainly keep more things in the 'fridge than strictly necessary.
Particularly when the ambient temperature is low. However, I don't
think I'd want to eat a mayonnaise-based salad (tuna, chicken, potato)
after a day unfrigerated. Pizza? Yes. Pasta with meat sauce? I don't
think so. In fact, outside of hard sausage, or country salt-cured ham,
I wouldn't be happy with any meat/fish/poultry thing, cooked or raw,
that had lingered untimely at room temperature, not matter how
well-covered.

And most cookbooks before refrigeration give the tolerance of the finished
product, stating how long the product keeps.*

I think I'll lean toward the USDA and CDC rather than Mrs. Beeton. :-)

Frogleg wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:50:05 +0100, "Christophe Bachmann"
wrote:


Last nights unrefrigerated pasta will not be dubious this evening, and even
the meat sauce if well cooked, stored in as small a jar as possible with a
closed lid (to minimise oxydation and contamination) will hold very well
for a day or two out of the fridge, if you have a cool spot to put it in.


Without getting into the specific and individual points, I'd like to
suggest looking around in Dr. Snyder's publications on his web site.
Some of our "everybody knows it" stuff isn't scientifically valid. I
had to do that most annoying of things after reading and testing some
of his notions: change my mind.

http://www.hi-tm.com/html/pubs_reports.html

Look at food storage info. Safe temps. Thawing foods. Mayo. Blew me away.

Pastorio

Two points: A "cool spot" may be hard to come by in many
climates/seasons. Since I was thinking about the era before
refrigeration, it would also be before air-conditioning, which usually
isn't used to cool lower than about 70F anyhow. Second, food storage
guidelines, conservative to be sure, in the US dictate that cooked and
many raw foods can be kept between 40F and 140F (4C to 60C) for no
longer than 4 hours to avoid possibly harmful bacterial growth. These
'rules' are guidelines for home food storage and requirements for
restaurants. While my house is quite cold, it's all well above 4C,
except in the 'fridge.


Let's not forget that conditions of life were quite different then from
now, and that people knew far better what could be held, in what
conditions, and how long.


Hmmm. They knew "far better" about the causes and effects of
food-borne illness (and death)? I don't think so. Scientists and
researchers had a hard time selling the 'germ theory' about the cause
and spread of disease -- how could something you can't see hurt you?
The world before knowledge of 'germs' was far from germ-free.


And let's also not forget that these people were
raised in conditions of hygiene that were far less stringent than they are
today, and so could far better cope with the slight contamination levels
they faced and modern sanitation practices (and they are far more stringent
in the USA than in most of Europe) lowered our tolerance level to these
contaminants. (I don't say it's bad.) I just remember that in the 1970s
still some things were routinely done to food that would be absolutely out
today.


I agree that over-sanitation/sterilization has gotten way out of hand,
and also that naturally-acquired immunity from mild exposure to many
diseases may indeed be beneficial. In fact, as far as I've been able
to determine, deaths and even serious illness (in the west) from food
sources is rather rare. However, just because something looks and
smells OK doesn't mean it isn't growing tiny critters.

We have whole cookbooks of 'leftover' recipes, based on the idea that
Tuesday's roast becomes Thursday's hash, and Sunday's chicken,
Wednesday's chicken salad.

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

Absolutely not, a lot of cooked meals can be kept a few days without
refrigeration if you respect these basic rules :


- If you at all can, use a preservation method, canning, laying underwater,
coating with fat, honey or salt, dessicate... etc.


Yes, this is true of preserving foods. Does not apply to Sunday's
roast chicken. My (most recent) contention is that it would have been
a whole lot of *work* to not be able to shove something in the 'fridge
for a few days (or freezer for a couple of months).


- Store cool and far from drafts


"Far from drafts?" Is this leftover meat sauce or a parekeet? :-)


- Know well the tolerance of your products, some hold overnight, some hold
a few days and some hold a few weeks.


I certainly keep more things in the 'fridge than strictly necessary.
Particularly when the ambient temperature is low. However, I don't
think I'd want to eat a mayonnaise-based salad (tuna, chicken, potato)
after a day unfrigerated. Pizza? Yes. Pasta with meat sauce? I don't
think so. In fact, outside of hard sausage, or country salt-cured ham,
I wouldn't be happy with any meat/fish/poultry thing, cooked or raw,
that had lingered untimely at room temperature, not matter how
well-covered.


And most cookbooks before refrigeration give the tolerance of the finished
product, stating how long the product keeps.*


I think I'll lean toward the USDA and CDC rather than Mrs. Beeton. :-)

"Frogleg" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:58:35 GMT, Robin Carroll-Mann
. wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:31:58 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
'off' rather quickly.

There's also a difference between food left overnight on a counter in
a warm kitchen, and food put away in a cool cellar (or pickled or
potted). We know that medieval people did eat leftovers. There are
cookbooks with recipes that use cold roast meat, and other recipes
that say things like, "And this pie will keep for four days...".

Yeah, but...how many urbanites have a "cool cellar," then or now?
Right now, it's about 40F outside (and not a great deal warmer
indoors, considering the price of natural gas), and quite possible to
stick a secure box in a shady spot to store that 4-day pie. Come the
end of July, when the average high temperature is 89F (32C) and the
low not much cooler, "this pie" would last about 45 minutes
unrefrigerated before growing fur. A lot of these historic
cookbook/household books come from northern Europe where "room
temperature" to which red wine was to be warmed was about 55F (13C).

You don't need a full cool cellar, just use good stone, or good earth to
build your house and it will still be far cooler inside than out in summer.
Many houses were quite cool in summer (and quite damp in winter, you can't
get everything).

Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
inexperienced young bride.)

Ahh. Trust a man to tell a woman what to do...


The food section of the book is online
at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Mediev.../Menagier.html

He says things like, "a hare is good for 15 days in winter, but 7 or 8
days in summer, if kept out of the sun". He also makes a lot of
references to salted meats.

Interesting site. Thanks for the URL.

Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.

85 degrees, certainly, if you speak in Celsius that would kill most
anything, but seriously, I still have to see a kitchen from ante 1900 where
the temperature is as high as 30° (85°F) please remember that 60 cm (2') of
stone or earth (sorry don't know the technical name of the mix of clay and
straw used to build in the timberframe construction) combined with small
windows quite nicely keeps heat and extreme cold at bay. Oftentimes, old
homes have kitchen cupboards that are anywhere from 15°C to 18°C (around
60°F - 65°F) year in year out.

I guess my original point was that (obviously) people have been able
to survive and be nourished for millennia without domestic
refrigeration, but it's sure a lot easier today (happy dance). I
always quite liked chipped beef on toast (when it was real beef, not a
sort of thin-sliced sausage), but I'm not sure I'd like it every day.
In fact, I thoroughly enjoy the option of having a variety of foods
and ingredients every day.

There I can only concur with you, with the proviso that a lot of indigenous
foodstuffs have been forgotten in this era of exotic standardised cooking.
I think among others of quince, nettles, and a lot of difficult to use
things that are totally phased off our tables. People in ancient times have
more variety than one could think if you just remove all non indigenous
products from the current offer.

I have a minor interest in 'seasonal' local foods in preference to
Mexican tomatoes in December, but I suppose I don't want to be limited
to potatoes and cabbage all winter long. My supermarket eggs keep for
a month or more. My (refrigerated) leftovers are edible for several
days. I can nearly always buy fresh milk and meat and not have to
consume them on the spot. Or preserve them.

Potatoes and cabbage, and before Columbus not even potatoes, but you forget
a whole lot of winter greens like beets, spinach, swiss chard, and root
vegetables like turnips, swedes plus the preserved autumn fruit, like
apples and pears, all the dry goods like grain, beans and peas, etc... You
still have quite a little variety,
And yes you could have milk all year long, and as for meat you can have
small animals slaugthered quite regularly (hen, rabbits) and in autumn you
could swap meat from your one slaughter with your neighbours who'ld
slaughter their hog a week earlyer or later and thus have fresh pork quite
often. In France, King Henry IV said that under his reign each family
should have a hen in the pot every week.

We are very fortunate, foodwise.

With that I must absolutely agree, my point is just that ancients had
tricks to stretch whatever was available as far as could do, and thus were
not just worse off than we are, but ate very differently and sometimes not
bad at all, and one cannot imagine food in the past as just our food minus
lots of things. (I don't say you do, just that it is very common.)

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Château du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

"Frogleg" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:50:05 +0100, "Christophe Bachmann"
wrote:

Last nights unrefrigerated pasta will not be dubious this evening, and
even
the meat sauce if well cooked, stored in as small a jar as possible with
a
closed lid (to minimise oxydation and contamination) will hold very well
for a day or two out of the fridge, if you have a cool spot to put it
in.

Two points: A "cool spot" may be hard to come by in many
climates/seasons. Since I was thinking about the era before
refrigeration, it would also be before air-conditioning, which usually
isn't used to cool lower than about 70F anyhow. Second, food storage
guidelines, conservative to be sure, in the US dictate that cooked and
many raw foods can be kept between 40F and 140F (4C to 60C) for no
longer than 4 hours to avoid possibly harmful bacterial growth. These
'rules' are guidelines for home food storage and requirements for
restaurants. While my house is quite cold, it's all well above 4C,
except in the 'fridge.

Please, these rules are very good for professional food care, and I like to
think that any restaurant does take *absolutely no* risk with food safety,
but let me state that these rules are absolutely overkill for most every
normal life situation.

Let's not forget that conditions of life were quite different then from
now, and that people knew far better what could be held, in what
conditions, and how long.

Hmmm. They knew "far better" about the causes and effects of
food-borne illness (and death)? I don't think so. Scientists and
researchers had a hard time selling the 'germ theory' about the cause
and spread of disease -- how could something you can't see hurt you?
The world before knowledge of 'germs' was far from germ-free.

Don't make me say what I didn't.
They knew far better than today what can be held and how long, before
contamination goes from anecdotic or tolerable to dangerous. They didn't
know about germs but they knew that one wouldn't come ill after X days but
most certainly would after Y days and so they could take risks until X-1
days. Today, and mostly in the US the motto is *no risk* and so nobody
knows anymore what the limits are because when the first bacteria appear in
mostly harmless amounts the products are already thrown away.

Then again I don't say that security is bad, but when you have to take
risks or starve, you will take calculated risks and become good at taking
them, and when you don't have to so much the better.


And let's also not forget that these people were
raised in conditions of hygiene that were far less stringent than they
are
today, and so could far better cope with the slight contamination levels
they faced and modern sanitation practices (and they are far more
stringent
in the USA than in most of Europe) lowered our tolerance level to these
contaminants. (I don't say it's bad.) I just remember that in the 1970s
still some things were routinely done to food that would be absolutely
out
today.

I agree that over-sanitation/sterilization has gotten way out of hand,
and also that naturally-acquired immunity from mild exposure to many
diseases may indeed be beneficial. In fact, as far as I've been able
to determine, deaths and even serious illness (in the west) from food
sources is rather rare. However, just because something looks and
smells OK doesn't mean it isn't growing tiny critters.

We have whole cookbooks of 'leftover' recipes, based on the idea that
Tuesday's roast becomes Thursday's hash, and Sunday's chicken,
Wednesday's chicken salad.

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

Absolutely not, a lot of cooked meals can be kept a few days without
refrigeration if you respect these basic rules :

- If you at all can, use a preservation method, canning, laying
underwater,
coating with fat, honey or salt, dessicate... etc.

Yes, this is true of preserving foods. Does not apply to Sunday's
roast chicken. My (most recent) contention is that it would have been
a whole lot of *work* to not be able to shove something in the 'fridge
for a few days (or freezer for a couple of months).

Could apply even to Sunday's leftover chicken ; carve as much meat as you
can from the bones, drop bones in stock-pot, reheat meat quickly and seal
with lard, should keep a few days, but it is far more risky than serve the
cold chicken monday noon, which will do without problem.

Life without a fridge can be a lot of work, but then again, people had to
do it, so they did it. Women mostly didn't work out, rich people often had
a maid, and work was done. Our modern times are very labour-saving and
that's a good thing too.

- Store cool and far from drafts

"Far from drafts?" Is this leftover meat sauce or a parekeet? :-)

Drafts can suck up a lot of moisture, and bring in a lot of
micro-organisms, so just like parakeets sensitive food should be kept out
of them, except if you want it dry.

- Know well the tolerance of your products, some hold overnight, some
hold
a few days and some hold a few weeks.

I certainly keep more things in the 'fridge than strictly necessary.
Particularly when the ambient temperature is low. However, I don't
think I'd want to eat a mayonnaise-based salad (tuna, chicken, potato)
after a day unfrigerated. Pizza? Yes. Pasta with meat sauce? I don't
think so. In fact, outside of hard sausage, or country salt-cured ham,
I wouldn't be happy with any meat/fish/poultry thing, cooked or raw,
that had lingered untimely at room temperature, not matter how
well-covered.

Ah for a mayonnaise based salad I wholly agree with you, why did I say keep
things separate, pure mayonnaise can keep unrefrigerated quite some time,
potatoes or pasta too, the meat is the most sensitive ingredient. And as I
already stated when you don't have to take risks by all means don't take
them.

And most cookbooks before refrigeration give the tolerance of the
finished
product, stating how long the product keeps.*

I think I'll lean toward the USDA and CDC rather than Mrs. Beeton. :-)

It seems our positions are not so far apart, I just would like to remember
that there were alternative means of doing things.
Once again, for everybody, play safe, know your limits, and do not take
chances with food, they did what they had to do, we don't have to.

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Château du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

the mayonnaise aspect - wouldn't that have a lot to do with whether
or not it was actually made with raw egg as an ingredient? A lot of the
taboos related to food poisoning (USA) from potato salad, etc. made with
mayonnaise were based upon the home made product using fresh raw eggs.

KAcey

Christophe Bachmann wrote:
"Frogleg" a écrit dans le message de
...

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:50:05 +0100, "Christophe Bachmann"
wrote:


Last nights unrefrigerated pasta will not be dubious this evening, and

even

the meat sauce if well cooked, stored in as small a jar as possible with

a

closed lid (to minimise oxydation and contamination) will hold very well
for a day or two out of the fridge, if you have a cool spot to put it

in.

Two points: A "cool spot" may be hard to come by in many
climates/seasons. Since I was thinking about the era before
refrigeration, it would also be before air-conditioning, which usually
isn't used to cool lower than about 70F anyhow. Second, food storage
guidelines, conservative to be sure, in the US dictate that cooked and
many raw foods can be kept between 40F and 140F (4C to 60C) for no
longer than 4 hours to avoid possibly harmful bacterial growth. These
'rules' are guidelines for home food storage and requirements for
restaurants. While my house is quite cold, it's all well above 4C,
except in the 'fridge.


Please, these rules are very good for professional food care, and I like to
think that any restaurant does take *absolutely no* risk with food safety,
but let me state that these rules are absolutely overkill for most every
normal life situation.


Let's not forget that conditions of life were quite different then from
now, and that people knew far better what could be held, in what
conditions, and how long.

Hmmm. They knew "far better" about the causes and effects of
food-borne illness (and death)? I don't think so. Scientists and
researchers had a hard time selling the 'germ theory' about the cause
and spread of disease -- how could something you can't see hurt you?
The world before knowledge of 'germs' was far from germ-free.


Don't make me say what I didn't.
They knew far better than today what can be held and how long, before
contamination goes from anecdotic or tolerable to dangerous. They didn't
know about germs but they knew that one wouldn't come ill after X days but
most certainly would after Y days and so they could take risks until X-1
days. Today, and mostly in the US the motto is *no risk* and so nobody
knows anymore what the limits are because when the first bacteria appear in
mostly harmless amounts the products are already thrown away.

Then again I don't say that security is bad, but when you have to take
risks or starve, you will take calculated risks and become good at taking
them, and when you don't have to so much the better.



And let's also not forget that these people were
raised in conditions of hygiene that were far less stringent than they

are

today, and so could far better cope with the slight contamination levels
they faced and modern sanitation practices (and they are far more

stringent

in the USA than in most of Europe) lowered our tolerance level to these
contaminants. (I don't say it's bad.) I just remember that in the 1970s
still some things were routinely done to food that would be absolutely

out

today.

I agree that over-sanitation/sterilization has gotten way out of hand,
and also that naturally-acquired immunity from mild exposure to many
diseases may indeed be beneficial. In fact, as far as I've been able
to determine, deaths and even serious illness (in the west) from food
sources is rather rare. However, just because something looks and
smells OK doesn't mean it isn't growing tiny critters.

We have whole cookbooks of 'leftover' recipes, based on the idea that
Tuesday's roast becomes Thursday's hash, and Sunday's chicken,
Wednesday's chicken salad.

It must have been *very* hard work to shop for and prepare relatively
'new' meals each day.

Absolutely not, a lot of cooked meals can be kept a few days without
refrigeration if you respect these basic rules :

- If you at all can, use a preservation method, canning, laying

underwater,

coating with fat, honey or salt, dessicate... etc.

Yes, this is true of preserving foods. Does not apply to Sunday's
roast chicken. My (most recent) contention is that it would have been
a whole lot of *work* to not be able to shove something in the 'fridge
for a few days (or freezer for a couple of months).


Could apply even to Sunday's leftover chicken ; carve as much meat as you
can from the bones, drop bones in stock-pot, reheat meat quickly and seal
with lard, should keep a few days, but it is far more risky than serve the
cold chicken monday noon, which will do without problem.

Life without a fridge can be a lot of work, but then again, people had to
do it, so they did it. Women mostly didn't work out, rich people often had
a maid, and work was done. Our modern times are very labour-saving and
that's a good thing too.


- Store cool and far from drafts

"Far from drafts?" Is this leftover meat sauce or a parekeet? :-)


Drafts can suck up a lot of moisture, and bring in a lot of
micro-organisms, so just like parakeets sensitive food should be kept out
of them, except if you want it dry.


- Know well the tolerance of your products, some hold overnight, some

hold

a few days and some hold a few weeks.

I certainly keep more things in the 'fridge than strictly necessary.
Particularly when the ambient temperature is low. However, I don't
think I'd want to eat a mayonnaise-based salad (tuna, chicken, potato)
after a day unfrigerated. Pizza? Yes. Pasta with meat sauce? I don't
think so. In fact, outside of hard sausage, or country salt-cured ham,
I wouldn't be happy with any meat/fish/poultry thing, cooked or raw,
that had lingered untimely at room temperature, not matter how
well-covered.


Ah for a mayonnaise based salad I wholly agree with you, why did I say keep
things separate, pure mayonnaise can keep unrefrigerated quite some time,
potatoes or pasta too, the meat is the most sensitive ingredient. And as I
already stated when you don't have to take risks by all means don't take
them.


And most cookbooks before refrigeration give the tolerance of the

finished

product, stating how long the product keeps.*

I think I'll lean toward the USDA and CDC rather than Mrs. Beeton. :-)


It seems our positions are not so far apart, I just would like to remember
that there were alternative means of doing things.
Once again, for everybody, play safe, know your limits, and do not take
chances with food, they did what they had to do, we don't have to.


--
Outgoing messages checked with Norton Antivirus 2003.