"wff_ng_7" wrote in message
news:sCt1g.8555$JY5.243@trnddc01...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
I challenge the twit to produce a well recognized (if not authoritative)
reference condoning his method. Why not start with showing that the
stock is sterile. Most recipes recommend temperatures well below the
boiling point, and even cooking at the boiling point does not guarantee
sterility. Most recipes also recommend cooling NOT covered.

Why do you feel it needs to be sterile?

I don't.

It is Sheldon claiming that because it is sterile, therefore there are no
worries about organisms growing in it during a slow cooling process. I
believe in a prior thread Sheldon even proposed leaving the pot out on the
counter overnight. I don't believe the stock is sterile to begin with, and
any additional pathogens introduced by speeding up the cooling are not as
important as getting the stock out of the dangerous (fast growth)
temperature range as quickly as possible.

I have yet to see a good source condoning Sheldon's method. On the
contrary, I've come across numerous recognized and authoritative
references advocating quick cooling methods.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )


I don't agree with leaving it on the counter for longer than it takes for
the hot pot to be safely placed on the next surface, but the fact is,
Sheldon's still alive, and who knows how long he's been doing this? Not
important, though. You encounter more potential pathogens in other places
each day than you'll EVER find in a pot of broth that's been off the stove
for a few hours.

maxine in ri wrote:
salgud wrote:
Janet Bostwick wrote:
"wff_ng_7" wrote in message
news:G2r1g.2526$_s5.1079@trnddc04...
I made a batch of chicken stock yesterday and cooled it by the method I
described in a prior thread. I place the stock pot on a 1 inch tall wire
grid trivet in the laundry tub, then fill the tub up with cold water to
about the level of liquid inside the stock pot. This time I got out my
digital thermometer and measured the temperatures a few times. I was
surprised at how fast the stock cooled... even faster than I had thought.
snip
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )
In addition, I would recommend swirling the liquid in the pot every few
minutes either by swirling the entire pot or stirring with a spoon in order
to expose the hotter core of liquid to the cooler outer portion of the pot.
Janet

With an 8" dia. stockpot, I doubt this would make much difference. It
might in a wider pot, but if you got much of a temperature differential
within the pot, it would create a small current between hot and cold
and do the stirring for you. Might make you feel better though!

When heating milk for yogurt, I use a pyrex 2-qt "cup", then cool the
yogurt down with a water bath in the kitchen sink. The 2 quart
container is about 8-9" across, and when I stand over it and gently
swirl the milk with the probe, the cooling takes about half the time of
allowing it to stand undisturbed.

Of course, that's only about 4" depth of liquid in there, so maybe that
would make a difference.

maxine in ri

Stirring it continually might significantly effect the cooling rate,
since you'd be exposing the hot liquid to the room temp air (increasing
the surface area in contact with the air) while it's also being cooled
by the water bath. But stirring the broth occasionally would not have
nearly as much effect.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
snip
Sheldon is correct about repeatedly mixing the fat back into the broth. If
you don't mind finding globs of fat on the surface of everything you make
later with the broth, then stir away. As far as "sterile", why would you
be concerned about that? Nothing else in your world is sterile, except
bandages, until you open them.
I was only thinking of the most efficient way to cool a body of liquid by
the method described. I recently heard of someone pouring hot concentrated
stock over ice in a strainer as a way of capturing the fat. Has anyone
tried that?
Janet

Doug Kanter wrote:
"wff_ng_7" wrote in message
news:sCt1g.8555$JY5.243@trnddc01...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
I challenge the twit to produce a well recognized (if not authoritative)
reference condoning his method. Why not start with showing that the
stock is sterile. Most recipes recommend temperatures well below the
boiling point, and even cooking at the boiling point does not guarantee
sterility. Most recipes also recommend cooling NOT covered.

Why do you feel it needs to be sterile?

I don't.

It is Sheldon claiming that because it is sterile, therefore there are no
worries about organisms growing in it during a slow cooling process. I
believe in a prior thread Sheldon even proposed leaving the pot out on the
counter overnight. I don't believe the stock is sterile to begin with, and
any additional pathogens introduced by speeding up the cooling are not as
important as getting the stock out of the dangerous (fast growth)
temperature range as quickly as possible.

I have yet to see a good source condoning Sheldon's method. On the
contrary, I've come across numerous recognized and authoritative
references advocating quick cooling methods.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )


Is it possible this method could cause serious brain damage? Dogturd
may be alive, but his brain obviously is not!


I don't agree with leaving it on the counter for longer than it takes for
the hot pot to be safely placed on the next surface, but the fact is,
Sheldon's still alive, and who knows how long he's been doing this? Not
important, though. You encounter more potential pathogens in other places
each day than you'll EVER find in a pot of broth that's been off the stove
for a few hours.

"Janet Bostwick" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
snip
Sheldon is correct about repeatedly mixing the fat back into the broth.
If you don't mind finding globs of fat on the surface of everything you
make later with the broth, then stir away. As far as "sterile", why would
you be concerned about that? Nothing else in your world is sterile,
except bandages, until you open them.

I was only thinking of the most efficient way to cool a body of liquid by
the method described. I recently heard of someone pouring hot
concentrated stock over ice in a strainer as a way of capturing the fat.
Has anyone tried that?
Janet


This is all very interesting, but if you're talking about a lot of stock,
like 3 or 4 gallons, you're going to need a lot of ice, and you may as well
just put the pot on a trivet in an ice chest, and bury it in ice.

"salgud" wrote in message
ups.com...

Doug Kanter wrote:
"wff_ng_7" wrote in message
news:sCt1g.8555$JY5.243@trnddc01...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
I challenge the twit to produce a well recognized (if not
authoritative)
reference condoning his method. Why not start with showing that the
stock is sterile. Most recipes recommend temperatures well below the
boiling point, and even cooking at the boiling point does not
guarantee
sterility. Most recipes also recommend cooling NOT covered.

Why do you feel it needs to be sterile?

I don't.

It is Sheldon claiming that because it is sterile, therefore there are
no
worries about organisms growing in it during a slow cooling process. I
believe in a prior thread Sheldon even proposed leaving the pot out on
the
counter overnight. I don't believe the stock is sterile to begin with,
and
any additional pathogens introduced by speeding up the cooling are not
as
important as getting the stock out of the dangerous (fast growth)
temperature range as quickly as possible.

I have yet to see a good source condoning Sheldon's method. On the
contrary, I've come across numerous recognized and authoritative
references advocating quick cooling methods.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )


I don't agree with leaving it on the counter for longer than it takes for
the hot pot to be safely placed on the next surface, but the fact is,
Sheldon's still alive, and who knows how long he's been doing this? Not
important, though. You encounter more potential pathogens in other places
each day than you'll EVER find in a pot of broth that's been off the
stove
for a few hours.



Is it possible this method could cause serious brain damage? Dogturd
may be alive, but his brain obviously is not!


I can't vouch for the nature of his life, only that he is still sitting up
and typing.

"Doug Kanter" wrote:
I don't agree with leaving it on the counter for longer than it takes for
the hot pot to be safely placed on the next surface, but the fact is,
Sheldon's still alive, and who knows how long he's been doing this? Not
important, though. You encounter more potential pathogens in other places
each day than you'll EVER find in a pot of broth that's been off the stove
for a few hours.

There is a flaw in the logic that since Sheldon is still alive, that it must
be okay.

Many things end up being dangerous only part of the time. In those cases,
people tend to get a false sense of security that it then must be safe to
do. Take these two activities. If you take a gun, place it in your mouth,
and fire, there is a virtually 100% chance that you will be killed. On the
other hand, if you go speeding 90 mph through traffic, chances are you are
still going to survive. Because there is no immediate cause and effect
relationship, it may not appear to be risky. But statistically, if one
continues to drive 90 mph, one has a high probability of killing oneself.

I think a lot, if not most people have a hard time understanding statistical
chances of harm. They can't evaluate how risky something is, and whether the
risk is worth taking. Though many things might be a 1 in a 1,000 chance of
doing harm, we do thousands of things in our lives. Even at a 1 in a 1,000
chance of harm in any one activity, if you do enough of them, you are pretty
much guaranteed to get hurt.

I'm more willing to put my faith in someone well versed in the issues of
food safety than to be trusting some random idiot posting on the internet. I
know I am not a food safety expert, but the method I described to cool stock
is in line with what food safety experts advocate. Sheldon's method flies in
the face of such advice.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

"wff_ng_7" wrote in message
news:dev1g.132$gt.13@trnddc04...
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
I don't agree with leaving it on the counter for longer than it takes for
the hot pot to be safely placed on the next surface, but the fact is,
Sheldon's still alive, and who knows how long he's been doing this? Not
important, though. You encounter more potential pathogens in other places
each day than you'll EVER find in a pot of broth that's been off the
stove for a few hours.

There is a flaw in the logic that since Sheldon is still alive, that it
must be okay.

Many things end up being dangerous only part of the time. In those cases,
people tend to get a false sense of security that it then must be safe to
do. Take these two activities. If you take a gun, place it in your mouth,
and fire, there is a virtually 100% chance that you will be killed. On the
other hand, if you go speeding 90 mph through traffic, chances are you are
still going to survive. Because there is no immediate cause and effect
relationship, it may not appear to be risky. But statistically, if one
continues to drive 90 mph, one has a high probability of killing oneself.

I think a lot, if not most people have a hard time understanding
statistical chances of harm. They can't evaluate how risky something is,
and whether the risk is worth taking. Though many things might be a 1 in a
1,000 chance of doing harm, we do thousands of things in our lives. Even
at a 1 in a 1,000 chance of harm in any one activity, if you do enough of
them, you are pretty much guaranteed to get hurt.

I'm more willing to put my faith in someone well versed in the issues of
food safety than to be trusting some random idiot posting on the internet.
I know I am not a food safety expert, but the method I described to cool
stock is in line with what food safety experts advocate. Sheldon's method
flies in the face of such advice.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )


I've had food poisoning - the whole emergency room routine. (Theory: Truck
stop chili). So, I'm obsessive about cleaning up after handling raw meats &
seafood, to the point where certain individuals in this house aren't allowed
to wash the utensils because they don't take it seriously. But, a pot of
broth that's been simmered for a number of hours? Intuitively, I just don't
believe that's a high risk 2-4 hours after the heat's been turned off. I
have no damned links to back that up - it's a hunch.

There are pathogens on your toothbrush, your hands, doorknobs, fruits &
vegetables, and money.

wff_ng_7 wrote:
I made a batch of chicken stock yesterday and cooled it by the method I
described in a prior thread. I place the stock pot on a 1 inch tall wire
grid trivet in the laundry tub, then fill the tub up with cold water to
about the level of liquid inside the stock pot. [snip]

What's missing from this thread and from the prior one on this subject
is the notion that there is any problem in search of all these
solutions. Who has ever had a problem? I make stock, I strain it into
other containers and let them cool on the counter. When they have
cooled a little a put them in the refrigerator. Big deal. If I'm
going to have a large volume I turn the fridge's temp control down a
few degrees to minimize heating up the other stuff in the fridge.
(Someone suggested that is ineffective. Maybe, depending on how much
you turn it down, but it certainly can't hurt.)

I always strain the stock, then cool it. That is the method recommended in
all the cook books I have, and they also say not to cool totally covered or
the stock can turn sour. [snip]

You strain the stock because the solids have given their all to the
liquid and you need to throw them away. Removing them obviously helps
the cooling process as well. You leave it uncovered because that also
lets it cool faster. This ain't rocket science, nor does it need to
be. -aem

"aem" wrote in message
oups.com...

wff_ng_7 wrote:
I made a batch of chicken stock yesterday and cooled it by the method I
described in a prior thread. I place the stock pot on a 1 inch tall wire
grid trivet in the laundry tub, then fill the tub up with cold water to
about the level of liquid inside the stock pot. [snip]

What's missing from this thread and from the prior one on this subject
is the notion that there is any problem in search of all these
solutions. Who has ever had a problem? I make stock, I strain it into
other containers and let them cool on the counter. When they have
cooled a little a put them in the refrigerator. Big deal. If I'm
going to have a large volume I turn the fridge's temp control down a
few degrees to minimize heating up the other stuff in the fridge.
(Someone suggested that is ineffective. Maybe, depending on how much
you turn it down, but it certainly can't hurt.)

Actually, the pot *will* heat the fridge up more than you want, and turning
the thing colder probably won't help much.



This ain't rocket science, nor does it need to
be. -aem


But, I agree with this. Sticking the pot in a sink of cold water isn't such
a bad idea, and analyzing the process is slightly interesting, but enough
already.

In article ,
says...
I've had food poisoning - the whole emergency room routine. (Theory: Truck
stop chili). So, I'm obsessive about cleaning up after handling raw meats &
seafood, to the point where certain individuals in this house aren't allowed
to wash the utensils because they don't take it seriously. But, a pot of
broth that's been simmered for a number of hours? Intuitively, I just don't
believe that's a high risk 2-4 hours after the heat's been turned off. I
have no damned links to back that up - it's a hunch.


Your hunch is backed up by science. The people who are most fearful of
germs and poisoning are the people who are most ignorant of the subject.
Now if you do not know the subject and want to be safe, then it makes
perfect sense to follow the recs of the "food safety experts," but the
fact is that they don't know the science either, and just parrot what
they have been taught. They go way overboard in recommending procedures
that go far beyond what is needed for safety. The idea is that it is
better for someone to boil longer than needed, or cool sooner than
needed, than to risk the chance that someone will not follow
instructions properly and have a problem. This started after WWII when
home canning was encouraged as part of the war effort, and there were
quite a few poisonings. The result was guidelines that went way beyond
what was needed. Sort of like recommending that for safe driving you
have to be in a car with 4 inch armor and 100 airbags.

--
Peter Aitken
Visit my recipe and kitchen myths pages at www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm

Doug Kanter wrote:
"aem" wrote in message
oups.com...

[snip] I make stock, I strain it into
other containers and let them cool on the counter. When they have
cooled a little a put them in the refrigerator. Big deal. If I'm
going to have a large volume I turn the fridge's temp control down a
few degrees to minimize heating up the other stuff in the fridge.
(Someone suggested that is ineffective. Maybe, depending on how much
you turn it down, but it certainly can't hurt.)

Actually, the pot *will* heat the fridge up more than you want, and turning
the thing colder probably won't help much.

Pay attention, Doug. Did I say I put the hot pot in the fridge?
-aem

"aem" wrote in message
oups.com...

Doug Kanter wrote:
"aem" wrote in message
oups.com...

[snip] I make stock, I strain it into
other containers and let them cool on the counter. When they have
cooled a little a put them in the refrigerator. Big deal. If I'm
going to have a large volume I turn the fridge's temp control down a
few degrees to minimize heating up the other stuff in the fridge.
(Someone suggested that is ineffective. Maybe, depending on how much
you turn it down, but it certainly can't hurt.)

Actually, the pot *will* heat the fridge up more than you want, and
turning
the thing colder probably won't help much.

Pay attention, Doug. Did I say I put the hot pot in the fridge?
-aem


Sort of maybe I read too fast why didn't you say so thanks. :-)

Does anyone here believe that Sheldon would admit that he'd been wrong and
accept responsibility if someone got food poisoning as a result of following
his advice?

Bob

"Bob Terwilliger" wrote in message
...
Does anyone here believe that Sheldon would admit that he'd been wrong and
accept responsibility if someone got food poisoning as a result of
following his advice?

Bob


I suppose I might wager a dime on it. But that's it.