In ,
Al in Dallas typed:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:56:52 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
wrote:
haven't eaten very much flesh. (I had a theory, quite untested, that
grass-fed beef and lamb was like wild game animals in having better
fats than the steamed-up commercial kind.)

In what sense "better"?

I remember reading recently that the fats found in wild game like deer
are quite different from those found in the meat of grain-fed ranch
animals. The author identified the animals' diets as the cause. The
picture he left me with was that animals that run around and eat a
natural diet are healthier for us to eat than animals that are
sedentary and fed cultivated grain.

In what way healthier? Is their fat less saturated?


--
Nat

"...a light scattering of snarky pedants, and a great many helpful
people who occasionally descend into jackassery, a couple of saints,
and a few wingnuts." --Matthew Shepherd, on and of alt.usage.english

Father Ignatius wrote:
In ,
Al in Dallas typed:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:56:52 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
wrote:
haven't eaten very much flesh. (I had a theory, quite untested,
that grass-fed beef and lamb was like wild game animals in having
better fats than the steamed-up commercial kind.)

In what sense "better"?

I remember reading recently that the fats found in wild game like
deer are quite different from those found in the meat of grain-fed
ranch animals. The author identified the animals' diets as the
cause. The picture he left me with was that animals that run around
and eat a natural diet are healthier for us to eat than animals that
are sedentary and fed cultivated grain.

In what way healthier? Is their fat less saturated?

Yes, that sort of thing, and omegas. CharlesDB explains upthread
somewhere.

Grass-feeding, as well as producing better-flavoured and healthier meat,
is presumably going to become inescapable. We can't go on much longer
feeding grain (and fish, but that's a separate problem) to cattle when
it will be needed to feed people. But upland pastures and other marginal
areas that will never be able to produce grain will continue to produce
the much smaller amounts of meat people are going to have to get used to
eating.

--
Mike.

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:10:12 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
wrote:

In ,
Al in Dallas typed:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:56:52 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
wrote:
haven't eaten very much flesh. (I had a theory, quite untested, that
grass-fed beef and lamb was like wild game animals in having better
fats than the steamed-up commercial kind.)

In what sense "better"?

I remember reading recently that the fats found in wild game like deer
are quite different from those found in the meat of grain-fed ranch
animals. The author identified the animals' diets as the cause. The
picture he left me with was that animals that run around and eat a
natural diet are healthier for us to eat than animals that are
sedentary and fed cultivated grain.

In what way healthier? Is their fat less saturated?

IIRC, that's exactly what was claimed.

--
Al in St. Lou

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:36:07 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Father Ignatius wrote:
In ,
Al in Dallas typed:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:56:52 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
wrote:
haven't eaten very much flesh. (I had a theory, quite untested,
that grass-fed beef and lamb was like wild game animals in having
better fats than the steamed-up commercial kind.)

In what sense "better"?

I remember reading recently that the fats found in wild game like
deer are quite different from those found in the meat of grain-fed
ranch animals. The author identified the animals' diets as the
cause. The picture he left me with was that animals that run around
and eat a natural diet are healthier for us to eat than animals that
are sedentary and fed cultivated grain.

In what way healthier? Is their fat less saturated?

Yes, that sort of thing, and omegas. CharlesDB explains upthread
somewhere.

Grass-feeding, as well as producing better-flavoured and healthier meat,

Given that I've seen retailers brag that their meat came from corn-fed
cattle and that wild animals taste gamey, I'm not sure that
grass-feeding would produce better-flavoured meat.

is presumably going to become inescapable. We can't go on much longer
feeding grain (and fish, but that's a separate problem) to cattle when
it will be needed to feed people. But upland pastures and other marginal
areas that will never be able to produce grain will continue to produce
the much smaller amounts of meat people are going to have to get used to
eating.

Didn't Stephen admonish us to leave out politics?

--
Al in St. Lou

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:35:04 GMT, "Lefty" wrote:


Good old Scrapple. Dense, lots of seasoning. Fried with eggs for
breakfast
(some people pour on syrup.) I think it is mostly regional to NJ, PA,
esp.
Philadelphia.

As good as scrapple may (or may not) be, it is only found in the
Philadelphia metropolitan area (of New Jersey) and remains unknown in
the NYC metropolitan area. The line seems to fall some place between
Princeton and Chester.

--
Al in St. Lou

Oddly enough I've seen scrapple sold in the Houston area. Never tasted it
though. Believe it was near the Taylor pork roll in the grocery store.

Chris in Pearland, TX

There has to be a transplanted NJ/PA influence in there , esp. with Pork
Roll along with the scrapple. They probably have TastyKakes and Entenman's
too.

I know a lot of NJ people went to Houston in the "80s with the Sun Belt
Boom. Several of my friends are there --wouldn't put it past them to coerce
a shop into supplying that stuff.

Oh, Texas has Entenman's. What I couldn't get in Texas and can't get
in St. Lou is Drake's, Ring Dings, Creamies, Yankee Doodles, and a
bunch of other stuff I can only drool over if I google up images. And
no Ronzoni!

--
Al in St. Lou

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]
Al in Dallas wrote:
Oh, Texas has Entenman's.

Entenmann's /'Ent@m@nz/ ("ENtamins"). (Well, maybe in Texas they
pronounce it differently.)

--
Salvatore Volatile

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:30:11 GMT, "Lefty" wrote:


"Al in Dallas" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 16:37:06 GMT, "Lefty" wrote:

" Worse, we have adopted the traditional
practice of slicing leftover pudding and frying it in butter, and we
regret
to inform you that it is very good indeed."



Good old Scrapple. Dense, lots of seasoning. Fried with eggs for
breakfast
(some people pour on syrup.) I think it is mostly regional to NJ, PA,
esp.
Philadelphia.

As good as scrapple may (or may not) be, it is only found in the
Philadelphia metropolitan area (of New Jersey) and remains unknown in
the NYC metropolitan area. The line seems to fall some place between
Princeton and Chester.

--
Al in St. Lou

I am from Princeton originally. Grew up on scrapple.

If it weren't for David Brenner, I never would have heard of it.

--
Al in St. Lou

Al in Dallas wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:36:07 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:
[...]
Grass-feeding, as well as producing better-flavoured and healthier
meat,

Given that I've seen retailers brag that their meat came from corn-fed
cattle and that wild animals taste gamey, I'm not sure that
grass-feeding would produce better-flavoured meat.

Well, a matter of taste, of course, but in my experience it does.
Corn-fed beef is baby food. Ever tasted venison? That's game, and people
love it. There's good gamey, and unfit for consumption gamey!

is presumably going to become inescapable. We can't go on much longer
feeding grain (and fish, but that's a separate problem) to cattle
when it will be needed to feed people. But upland pastures and other
marginal areas that will never be able to produce grain will
continue to produce the much smaller amounts of meat people are
going to have to get used to eating.

Didn't Stephen admonish us to leave out politics?

Stephen doesn't have to think about the future if he doesn't want to!

--
Mike.

In message , Father Ignatius
writes
In ,
Mike Lyle typed:

I have nothing to offer in the area of substituting butter and so forth
other than to report a sharp hiss of horror at your blasphemous intent. I
conjecture, however, that butter might go rancid, and the consistency of the
pud would be not up to standard.

I don't know; but I imagine keeping oxygen out is the main thing.

[Those quoted passages look to be in the wrong order, but they aren't.]

I'd thought oxygen + butter - butyric acid, which reference works say
is the origin of the rancid taste. Book research says the process is
hydrolysis, not oxidation; it's a matter of ester cleavage (not to be
confused with dear Esther Cleavage). The dictionary says that butyric
is adjectival of butter, though as a chemist I'd derived it from butane.
It seems it's the other way about.

The Wiki-thing has this to say:

Butyric acid, IUPAC name n-Butanoic acid, or normal butyric
acid, is a carboxylic acid with structural formula
CH3CH2CH2-COOH. It is notably found in rancid butter, parmesan
cheese, and vomit, and has an unpleasant odor and acrid taste,
with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether). Butyric acid can
be detected by mammals with good scent detection abilities
(e.g., dogs) at 10 ppb, while humans can detect it in
concentrations above 10 ppm.

Its name was made from Greek ß??t???? = butter.

[Maybe some will see these characters in the Greek: beta, omicron,
upsilon, tau, upsilon, rho, omicron, sigma.]

Butyric acid is a fatty acid occurring in the form of esters in
animal fats and plant oils. The glyceride of butyric acid makes
up 3% to 4% of butter. When butter goes rancid, butyric acid is
liberated from the glyceride by hydrolysis leading to the
unpleasant odor.

Take your choice: rancid butter, parmesan, or vomit.

--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 13:29:46 -0400, "CDB" wrote:



Ah, thank you. It's Christmas pudding I have in mind, and I had
thought I ought to get an early start on it. "Only with suet" because
that keeps its shape after the first cooking, or because it is less
likely to go rancid in the interval? I'm considering high-grade
coconut oil too; it might stay fresh as well as suet, but would
probably melt and be incorporated during the first boiling.


Another suggestion if you are worried about the length of
storage and becoming rancid.

Instead of butter as you know it, use clarified butter.
(You can make it yourself, but that's a hassle. Easier
to go down to your local emporium of Indian foodstuffs
and ask for ghee)

Clarified butter has a number of advantages - it doesn't
burn as easily as normal butter - better for use when you
are cooking with high heat e.g. feel safe to use it in combination
with olive oil when the recipe calls for same and/or you
are frying at high temp. But the advantage in this case is it
is far less likely to go rancid on you. So cool it down to
the consistency of a solid fat (it is liquid at room temp) and
then grate or chop as suggested to get the right degree of lumpiness
to mix correctly with the flour.

Jitze

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:39:56 +0100, Paul Wolff
wrote:



I'd thought oxygen + butter - butyric acid, which reference works say
is the origin of the rancid taste. Book research says the process is
hydrolysis, not oxidation; it's a matter of ester cleavage

Yup - see my words upthread on the use of clarified butter (ghee).

The clarification process removes both the water (limiting hydrolysis)
and most of the solids

webexhibits.org/butter/glossary-dg.html tells me about ghee:

Clarified butter that has been cooked longer to remove all
the water so it can be stored for longer periods (both
refrigerated and at room temperature). Popular in india. Can
be used for deep frying

Jitze

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:23:07 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Al in Dallas wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:36:07 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:
[...]
Grass-feeding, as well as producing better-flavoured and healthier
meat,

Given that I've seen retailers brag that their meat came from corn-fed
cattle and that wild animals taste gamey, I'm not sure that
grass-feeding would produce better-flavoured meat.

Well, a matter of taste, of course, but in my experience it does.
Corn-fed beef is baby food. Ever tasted venison? That's game, and people
love it. There's good gamey, and unfit for consumption gamey!

Most hunters I know process venison into spicey sausage to *hide* its
flavor.

is presumably going to become inescapable. We can't go on much longer
feeding grain (and fish, but that's a separate problem) to cattle
when it will be needed to feed people. But upland pastures and other
marginal areas that will never be able to produce grain will
continue to produce the much smaller amounts of meat people are
going to have to get used to eating.

[snip]

Then I'll just point out that Malthus was wrong and that free markets
will keep desired goods available so long as they aren't heavily
distorted by those who use the government to distort them.

--
Al in St. Lou

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:39:56 +0100, Paul Wolff
wrote:

[snip]

Take your choice: rancid butter, parmesan, or vomit.

Not at all comparable. Parmesan is delicious. Vomit makes people
retch. Rancid butter is bad but not so bad as vomit.

--
Al in St. Lou

Al in Dallas wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:23:07 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Al in Dallas wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:36:07 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:
[...]
Grass-feeding, as well as producing better-flavoured and healthier
meat,
Given that I've seen retailers brag that their meat came from corn-fed
cattle and that wild animals taste gamey, I'm not sure that
grass-feeding would produce better-flavoured meat.
Well, a matter of taste, of course, but in my experience it does.
Corn-fed beef is baby food. Ever tasted venison? That's game, and people
love it. There's good gamey, and unfit for consumption gamey!

Most hunters I know process venison into spicey sausage to *hide* its
flavor.


It completely depends on where the venison is from. I grew up in
Michigan - big big deer hunting there. The venison is FANTASTIC! Almost
a sweet flavor. Has to be my favorite thing to eat. Venison steak -
yum yum. I have had venison that was hunted in Georgia - it is tougher
with a more peppery flavor. Not even close to the dame flavor, not
nearly as good.


I guess it's a bit off topic from free range beef *G* It's something I
was unaware of until I took my first bite of Georgia venison ick(guess I
just never gave it much thought)

Roberta (in VA)

Jitze Couperus wrote:
On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 13:29:46 -0400, "CDB"
wrote:



Ah, thank you. It's Christmas pudding I have in mind, and I had
thought I ought to get an early start on it. "Only with suet"
because that keeps its shape after the first cooking, or because
it is less likely to go rancid in the interval? I'm considering
high-grade coconut oil too; it might stay fresh as well as suet,
but would probably melt and be incorporated during the first
boiling.


Another suggestion if you are worried about the length of
storage and becoming rancid.

Instead of butter as you know it, use clarified butter.
(You can make it yourself, but that's a hassle. Easier
to go down to your local emporium of Indian foodstuffs
and ask for ghee)

Clarified butter has a number of advantages - it doesn't
burn as easily as normal butter - better for use when you
are cooking with high heat e.g. feel safe to use it in combination
with olive oil when the recipe calls for same and/or you
are frying at high temp. But the advantage in this case is it
is far less likely to go rancid on you. So cool it down to
the consistency of a solid fat (it is liquid at room temp) and
then grate or chop as suggested to get the right degree of lumpiness
to mix correctly with the flour.

Another good idea; thank you. I've read about it but never tried it.
The so-called "Indian Paradox", that the predominantly vegetarian
population of India is so much afflicted by degenerative diseases, has
been attributed to their abandonment of ghee in favour of
polyunsaturated vegetable oils.