....seems to me I used to not have a problem, but for the past year,
everytime I make a fresh pizza, no matter what I try, the CRUST is
SOFT. I'll tell you what I do every time below and then I follow it
with the other things I've tried...just to save some time here.

EVERY TIME

-Use trader joe's pizza dough. (both the white and wheat doughs)
-Hand toss to stretch it out to large pizza size (thin)
-Roll the ball in flower before start and add flower as needed if it
gets sticky.
(Doing this i can pretty easily toss/stretch the dough. If the dough
is cold I'll let it rest a bit once in a while which seems to help.)
-Pre-heat oven and pans/stones to 425 ( have tried 375 too). Think
475+ is the trick?
-I get all my ingredients ready before hand, when the oven and
pan/stone are hot I take it out, throw on the dough, add the normal
pizza toppings, and cook for about 10 minutes (until cheese is bubbling
and starting to brown on top.)

I don't use too much sauce (one ladel full, maybe a little more).
I don't use too many wet ingredients.
A lot of times its just a plain pizza as well.
Have even tried white pizzas where I rub the crust with a little pesto
or oil and add cheese.

HAVE TRIED

-both pans and stones
-both dry and lightly oiled pan/stone
-sprinkel of corn flower on the pan or stone
-pre-cooked the crust for about 5 minutes until it just started to set
up and be dry on the outside, but not browned anywhere. should I
precook longer?

If precooking the crust is the solution, I'll try it again, but pizza
parlors don't have to do it. They just make up a heaping fresh pizza
and slide it in the hot oven. I'd also like to avoid any of those pans
w/ holes or screens that I've seen. No gimmicks, just straight up
pizza on a natural pan or stone surface please.

I think that's about it. I'm not sure if its the dough I'm using or
part of my process, but I really miss a crisp thin crust pizza! I'm at
my wits end here if anyone has suggestions.

Sorry for the long email, but wanted to let you know I've tried a lot
of things. Tops of the pizzas look great, by the way, but when you
pick up a slice it droops like a wet noodle. Help this Jersey
transplant make some good pizza in a world surrounded by chain pizza
joints!

Thanks!

Sorry for the long email, but wanted to let you know I've tried a lot
of things. Tops of the pizzas look great, by the way, but when you
pick up a slice it droops like a wet noodle. Help this Jersey
transplant make some good pizza in a world surrounded by chain pizza
joints!

Thanks!


The one thing you may try that wasn't listed was placing an 8x8 pan,
about half full of water, in the bottom shelf of your oven. The steam
helps crisp up the bread. It isn't that you're using too many wet
ingredients, it's that the bread isn't absorbing enough moisture to
crisp it. At least that's what we found when we make ours.

CJ

Roll the ball in flower before start and add flower as needed if it
gets sticky.

What kind of flowers are you using? Daisies? Tulips? ;-D

"todd" wrote in news:1138939060.819054.124650
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

...seems to me I used to not have a problem, but for the past year,
everytime I make a fresh pizza, no matter what I try, the CRUST is
SOFT. I'll tell you what I do every time below and then I follow it
with the other things I've tried...just to save some time here.

-Pre-heat oven and pans/stones to 425 ( have tried 375 too). Think
475+ is the trick?

To get the best crust your oven has to be as hot as you can get it. You
need to set it for its maximum setting and let it warm up for at least 1
hour. The long time will let the temp soak well into the oven and will
help it recover faster when you place the cold dough in.

http://www.pizzatherapy.com/tipsand.htm


--
---
Charles Quinn

"Choosing the lesser of two evils, is still choosing evil" - Jerry Garcia

Do as the pros do--keep a spray bottle handy, and spray water into the
oven a couple of times. Helps to crisp it up.

Nancree

todd wrote:
...seems to me I used to not have a problem, but for the past year,
everytime I make a fresh pizza, no matter what I try, the CRUST is
SOFT. I'll tell you what I do every time below and then I follow it
with the other things I've tried...just to save some time here.

What are you doing with the pizza when it comes out of the oven? If
you place a hot pizza on a comparatively cool flat surface such as a
cutting board the steam from the crust may condense and cause the crust
to soften. I always take a paper towel and place it on a cooling rack
and then place the pizza on top of that. The paper towel helps draw
out the excess moisture and the rack provides air circulation.

Try to do by yourself your pizza dough (using manitoba flour and Biga );
Put your oven at max temperature (pizza pan must be in the middle of the
oven) for the first five minutes, then low at 250 C°.
Put your seasoning (tomatoe sauce and salt) only in the moment you are
ready to put pizza in the oven.
Put mozzarella only 5 minutes your pizza is ready.
If mozzarella is full of liquid, put it in a colanderfor some hours before
you use it.
Cheers
Pandora

----------------------------------------------------------------------



"todd" ha scritto nel messaggio
oups.com...
...seems to me I used to not have a problem, but for the past year,
everytime I make a fresh pizza, no matter what I try, the CRUST is
SOFT. I'll tell you what I do every time below and then I follow it
with the other things I've tried...just to save some time here.

EVERY TIME

-Use trader joe's pizza dough. (both the white and wheat doughs)
-Hand toss to stretch it out to large pizza size (thin)
-Roll the ball in flower before start and add flower as needed if it
gets sticky.
(Doing this i can pretty easily toss/stretch the dough. If the dough
is cold I'll let it rest a bit once in a while which seems to help.)
-Pre-heat oven and pans/stones to 425 ( have tried 375 too). Think
475+ is the trick?
-I get all my ingredients ready before hand, when the oven and
pan/stone are hot I take it out, throw on the dough, add the normal
pizza toppings, and cook for about 10 minutes (until cheese is bubbling
and starting to brown on top.)

I don't use too much sauce (one ladel full, maybe a little more).
I don't use too many wet ingredients.
A lot of times its just a plain pizza as well.
Have even tried white pizzas where I rub the crust with a little pesto
or oil and add cheese.

HAVE TRIED

-both pans and stones
-both dry and lightly oiled pan/stone
-sprinkel of corn flower on the pan or stone
-pre-cooked the crust for about 5 minutes until it just started to set
up and be dry on the outside, but not browned anywhere. should I
precook longer?

If precooking the crust is the solution, I'll try it again, but pizza
parlors don't have to do it. They just make up a heaping fresh pizza
and slide it in the hot oven. I'd also like to avoid any of those pans
w/ holes or screens that I've seen. No gimmicks, just straight up
pizza on a natural pan or stone surface please.

I think that's about it. I'm not sure if its the dough I'm using or
part of my process, but I really miss a crisp thin crust pizza! I'm at
my wits end here if anyone has suggestions.

Sorry for the long email, but wanted to let you know I've tried a lot
of things. Tops of the pizzas look great, by the way, but when you
pick up a slice it droops like a wet noodle. Help this Jersey
transplant make some good pizza in a world surrounded by chain pizza
joints!

Thanks!

On 2 Feb 2006, todd wrote:

EVERY TIME

-Pre-heat oven and pans/stones to 425 ( have tried 375 too). Think
475+ is the trick?
-I get all my ingredients ready before hand, when the oven and
pan/stone are hot I take it out, throw on the dough, add the normal
pizza toppings, and cook for about 10 minutes (until cheese is bubbling
and starting to brown on top.)

Thanks!




If you preheat the stone and then take it out of the oven, dress your
pizza and then return it to the oven, your stone is not preheated anymore.
The heat won't move through the stone like it will through a pan of some
kind. You are cooking the bottom of the pizza with the heat that has built
up in the stone.


Have you dressed your pizza on a portable surface and then moved it to the
stone without taking the stone out of the oven?

Just because the oven has reached 400 or 450 doesn't not mean that the
stone has reached that temp.

Have you tried heating the oven to 500, leaving the stone to heat through
and through, leave the stone in the oven, transfer in the pizza and turn
the heat down to 425 or 450 to cook?

Bread, pizza or not, needs to cook hot and fast.

Is your oven temp accurate?

Good Luck

Elaine, too

"Elaine Parrish" wrote:
On 2 Feb 2006, todd wrote:

EVERY TIME

-Pre-heat oven and pans/stones to 425 ( have tried 375 too). Think
475+ is the trick?
-I get all my ingredients ready before hand, when the oven and
pan/stone are hot I take it out, throw on the dough, add the normal
pizza toppings, and cook for about 10 minutes (until cheese is bubbling
and starting to brown on top.)

Thanks!


If you preheat the stone and then take it out of the oven, dress your
pizza and then return it to the oven, your stone is not preheated anymore.
The heat won't move through the stone like it will through a pan of some
kind. You are cooking the bottom of the pizza with the heat that has built
up in the stone.

Have you dressed your pizza on a portable surface and then moved it to the
stone without taking the stone out of the oven?

Just because the oven has reached 400 or 450 doesn't not mean that the
stone has reached that temp.

Have you tried heating the oven to 500, leaving the stone to heat through
and through, leave the stone in the oven, transfer in the pizza and turn
the heat down to 425 or 450 to cook?

Bread, pizza or not, needs to cook hot and fast.

Is your oven temp accurate?

I'd didn't catch the line "when the oven and pan/stone are hot I take it
out, throw on the dough" on the first read. That does sound pretty strange.
If that's true one would think half the cooking is happening on the counter,
and not at a very high temperature.

I heat my oven and stone up to 500 degrees for an hour before putting the
pizza in. I build the pizza on a sheet of parchment, and then transfer the
pizza on parchment to the stone with a peel. I then turn the oven down to
400.

I never could get the method down right building the pizza on the peel and
sliding it directly onto the stone. After ending up with what might have
been a cross between a calzone and a pizza (a big mess), I opted for the
parchment method and haven't looked back. The parchment is thin and porous
enough that it has little effect on the result. Certainly no problems with
lack of crispness.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Don't use Trader Jose's dough, except in the most dire emergencies. make
your own.

Don't! add flour to the dough. Pizza dough should be sticky! To confirm this
read Julia Child, Wolfgang Puck, etc. That will confirm.

Always bake on a stone with oven heated to maximum temp.

spray H20 in 3 times during cooking.

It just isn't a problem if you do the above.


"todd" wrote in message
oups.com...
...seems to me I used to not have a problem, but for the past year,
everytime I make a fresh pizza, no matter what I try, the CRUST is
SOFT. I'll tell you what I do every time below and then I follow it
with the other things I've tried...just to save some time here.

EVERY TIME

-Use trader joe's pizza dough. (both the white and wheat doughs)
-Hand toss to stretch it out to large pizza size (thin)
-Roll the ball in flower before start and add flower as needed if it
gets sticky.
(Doing this i can pretty easily toss/stretch the dough. If the dough
is cold I'll let it rest a bit once in a while which seems to help.)
-Pre-heat oven and pans/stones to 425 ( have tried 375 too). Think
475+ is the trick?
-I get all my ingredients ready before hand, when the oven and
pan/stone are hot I take it out, throw on the dough, add the normal
pizza toppings, and cook for about 10 minutes (until cheese is bubbling
and starting to brown on top.)

I don't use too much sauce (one ladel full, maybe a little more).
I don't use too many wet ingredients.
A lot of times its just a plain pizza as well.
Have even tried white pizzas where I rub the crust with a little pesto
or oil and add cheese.

HAVE TRIED

-both pans and stones
-both dry and lightly oiled pan/stone
-sprinkel of corn flower on the pan or stone
-pre-cooked the crust for about 5 minutes until it just started to set
up and be dry on the outside, but not browned anywhere. should I
precook longer?

If precooking the crust is the solution, I'll try it again, but pizza
parlors don't have to do it. They just make up a heaping fresh pizza
and slide it in the hot oven. I'd also like to avoid any of those pans
w/ holes or screens that I've seen. No gimmicks, just straight up
pizza on a natural pan or stone surface please.

I think that's about it. I'm not sure if its the dough I'm using or
part of my process, but I really miss a crisp thin crust pizza! I'm at
my wits end here if anyone has suggestions.

Sorry for the long email, but wanted to let you know I've tried a lot
of things. Tops of the pizzas look great, by the way, but when you
pick up a slice it droops like a wet noodle. Help this Jersey
transplant make some good pizza in a world surrounded by chain pizza
joints!

Thanks!

phew, lots more things to try. Thanks! Couple comments and
questions...


I agree that if I tried to transfer from a peel (which I don't have
yet) to the stone/pan I would end up with a calzone instead of a pizza.
The parchment paper method sounds like a good idea. Can I cook on
the parchment (pan/stone underneath) or do I have to slide it off the
parchment? (and buy a peel)

The water spraying is complete news to me! Surprised so many people
know this. Don't quite understand how the H20 will help with crisping,
so I'd be interested in more info. If its that important, the 8x8 pan
of water mentioned sounded like an easy solution. Won't the pan of
water draw down the oven temp. though?

When I take the pizza out of the oven, I leave it on the pan/stone.
But, I have checked the crust immediately and it isn't crispy even when
it comes out.

No flour? When I watch them in a parlor they have a pile of flour
there that they are rolling it out in and tossing it up in the air?!
Seems to keep it from sticking to your hands or rolling pins. Don't
actually know how I would do it without flour. ?

The odd thing is, on times that I use a stone, the crust does start to
cook as soon as I put it on the stone, so if anything it should be
getting more cooking time, which is good.


** From the sound of it, it seems like my main issue is oven
temperature. Got to get it hotter well beforehand and also not let the
stone lose much heat waiting.

Top rack or middle rack cooking? I've always cooked near the top of
the oven.

To keep it simple, I think I'll use a pan for the time being. Heats up
quicker.

It does seem like it has nothing to do with using or not using oil on
the cooking surface, so I'll keep a light coating of that.

Thanks again!

More info on spraying the oven with water. It works VERY well. Watch
the cooking shows when Pizza is the subject. They often do this.
From personal experience I know spraying works with hard crust rolls
that you have bought at the store. Hold your hand under the faucet and
wet all sides of the roll. It will come out crisp on the outside and
fresh on the inside. Try it, it works!!!
Also I have saved many a leftover piece of French baguette this way.
(it had been wrapped and kept in the fridge.) Turn on the faucet and
hold your hand under it. Smear the water all over the baguette crust,
top and bottom. Put in the hot oven (I use my toaster oven) and watch
carefully. You will have a very tasty baguette the second day.
Enjoy this method,
Nancree

todd wrote:
phew, lots more things to try. Thanks! Couple comments and
questions...


I agree that if I tried to transfer from a peel (which I don't have
yet) to the stone/pan I would end up with a calzone instead of a pizza.
The parchment paper method sounds like a good idea. Can I cook on
the parchment (pan/stone underneath) or do I have to slide it off the
parchment? (and buy a peel)

Never tried it with parchment paper. I just use a peel and lots of
cornmeal. With parchment paper I imagine you just assemble the pizza
on the parchment paper and carry the parchment paper with the assembled
pizza on it and set parchment paper and all on the hot stone. After a
few seconds you could probably pull out the parchment paper. Truth is
I haven't made a homemade pizza in over two years because I don't like
having to crank my oven up to 500 degrees F. for an hour just to
preheat the stone.


No flour? When I watch them in a parlor they have a pile of flour
there that they are rolling it out in and tossing it up in the air?!
Seems to keep it from sticking to your hands or rolling pins. Don't
actually know how I would do it without flour. ?

If you have to use flour to keep the dough from sticking make sure the
flour only touches the outside surface of the dough and doesn't
actually get worked into the dough. A dough with too much flour in it
will come out hard on the outside and doughy on the inside. The pizza
should be baked on the very bottom rack of the oven for maximum
crispness.

A couple of far-out possibilites:

Maybe the TJ dough formula itself got changed, or there's a different
distributor, storage conditions, or something?

Maybe your oven is starting to get wonky, and the temp on the dial
isn't reaching the really hot temp. a pizza needs (have you checked the
temp with a cheapie oven thermometer lately?)

Also I noticed you said you put your pizza near the top of the oven...
I put mine in the middle, on a stone.
If you hadn't done this before succesfully, I might think that the
bottom of the pizza isn't getting hot enough compared to the top which
is close to the coils.. .especially if your stone is cooling off a bit
when you have it out of the oven, or if it hasn't preheated enough to
heat all the way through (an hour seems way too long to me to preheat
though).

Diane B.

"todd" wrote:
I agree that if I tried to transfer from a peel (which I don't have
yet) to the stone/pan I would end up with a calzone instead of a pizza.
The parchment paper method sounds like a good idea. Can I cook on
the parchment (pan/stone underneath) or do I have to slide it off the
parchment? (and buy a peel)

What I do is put the piece of parchment on the countertop, flour it, then
build the pizza on top of it. I slide the peel under the parchment, take it
to the oven, and slide the parchment with pizza onto the stone. I leave the
parchment there under the pizza for the duration of cooking. When done, I
slide the peel under the parchment and remove it and the pizza back to the
counter for cutting.

There's a chance you could do this without a peel if you had some other flat
surface to slide the parchment with pizza onto. In bread baking, some
recommend using an inverted sheet pan if a peel is not available. I don't
know if this will work with a pizza, since it is larger.

The water spraying is complete news to me! Surprised so many people
know this. Don't quite understand how the H20 will help with crisping,
so I'd be interested in more info. If its that important, the 8x8 pan
of water mentioned sounded like an easy solution. Won't the pan of
water draw down the oven temp. though?

I don't know exactly how it works either... and I don't use it for pizza
myself. I do use it for baking various kinds of bread, and it does make a
big difference there. I've got an old windex spray bottle filled with water,
and I spray the oven walls with water every two minutes for the first
several minutes of baking bread. For commercial bread baking, they make
ovens with a built in steam injection function for this. I've heard there
are even ovens made for home use that have this feature now, but they are
certainly out of my price range.

** From the sound of it, it seems like my main issue is oven
temperature. Got to get it hotter well beforehand and also not let the
stone lose much heat waiting.

Top rack or middle rack cooking? I've always cooked near the top of
the oven.

I've got my stone about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom. I'm not sure
where the best place is. My oven is gas.

To keep it simple, I think I'll use a pan for the time being. Heats up
quicker.

Somehow I don't mind the long preheat at this time of year. Having the oven
on at 500 degrees for an hour of preheat doesn't bother me in winter! ;-)

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )