at Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:56:32 GMT in ,
lid (ferret) wrote :

Alex Rast wrote:

In a larger sense, indeed, the whole chocolate industry is moving
upscale. Commodity brands like Hershey's and Lindt are producing
excellent chocolate and boutique brands are exploring new sources and
showing off single varietals.

Lindt at least has had some pretty good dark chocolate for some time,
unlike Hershey's.

Well, for a while Lindt was merely average for the most part. I do agree
that Excellence 70% (which has been out now for several years) was pretty
good, although not exactly the best of the 70%'s, but it was with the
introduction of the Excellence 85% that they really started to get serious.
Hershey's 60% is better than Excellence 70% by some margin but not the
equal of the awe-inspiring 85%. Lindt also has brought out some new
varietal chocolates which look very interesting. It's that new angle to
Lindt that shows they're moving in a different direction.

I guess I'm a little spoiled because there are enough stores around here
that carry really good chocolate that I don't have to settle for any of
the waxy generic crap that Hershey's, Nestles, and Girardelli sell for
the most part.

Ghirardelli has been excellent for many, many years - one of the better
chocolate manufacturers all round. Their bittersweet has consistently been
better than Hershey's, or Lindt - on a par with companies like Callebaut.
It's worth mentioning too that Nestle produces a superb bittersweet - Noir
Intense 74%, although it's hard to find.

I'll also say, however, that your description "waxy" suggests a texture
focus, so your idea of a good chocolate may depend a lot more on the
texture qualities than mine does. Not that Ghirardelli has ever had poor
texture, though - but it may be a factor. Ghirardelli is an interesting
company that many people seem inclined to be prejudicial against simply
because they're large and American. However, neither size nor nationality
has IME an absolute correlation with quality. In the limit, a large company
might not be able to produce as good a chocolate as a smaller company,
simply because the smaller company can use rarer ultra-quality beans that
the large company wouldn't be able to use simply because not enough is
produced to meet the supply they would need. However, beyond that limit,
it's very much all over the map.

Now, of course, Lindt owns Ghirardelli anyway, so wherever their quality
has been in the past we can probably expect (with Lindt's current focus),
if anything, still more improvement.


--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Alex Rast wrote:

It's
a not-very-well-kept secret of science that much if not most of it is
marketing in disguise, ... Now, the science itself isn't flawed, nor are the
investigators themselves carrying out their research in anything other than
an impartial manner. But it must be understood that the *motivation* for
that research is strongly biassed and has predecided conclusions in mind.
(This is coming from the companies, not from the scientists). Thus it's
usually no coincidence that scientific study, not to mention popular
appeal, often seems to coincide with new availabilities. Sometimes it's the
discoveries that drive the production, but more often than not it's the
other way round. It is therefore important to take such findings with a
very strong grain of salt.


That's a good point, something I hadn't considered but which makes a lot
of sense. Thanks.


High-percentage chocolate has more of the mood-altering chemicals
theobromine, phenyethanine, and caffeine. Like any strong stimulant these
lead to a quick high and a precipitous crash. In severe cases it will make
you dizzy, spacey, and paranoid. Unless you have a strong tolerance from
repeated high-percentage consumption, it's likely that in anything more
than relatively small amounts, the drugs will send you into orbit. It
doesn't help that most high-percentage chocolates are sold in 100g bars,
which, for the average person, is far too much. A new 50g size that's
becoming popular is more realistic. In any case, this is probably what's
making you sick.


I would have thought that the high-percentage chocolates were being sold
in large bars because people were using them as an ingredient in
cooking and baking everything from mousse, chocolate chip cookies,
brownies, etc. So they're buying in big bars because it is less
expensive and more convenient that way same as they buy flour in several
pound bags. They're not necessarily eating it all at once. (Anyone
have a comment on this? Does anyone here buy large bars of chocolate to
eat at one sitting or know anyone who does?)


I can see that high-percentage chocolate would have to have more of the
mood altering chemicals, but I'm not sure how this works and would like
more information. I'll use myself as an example. I want to understand
more about my chocolate cravings.


First, chocolate is the only caffiene containing substance that I like.
I drink no coffee, drink tea only in that odd social situation when I
feel the need to accept a hot drink (and then get herb tea if it is
available), don't like caffienated soft drinks (and have been amused to
discover that I don't have to know there's caffiene in it not to like
it. I've hated Mountain Dew from early childhood and only recently
learned that it had caffiene in it. I've always hated coke and other
cola drinks too.) So I don't think it is the caffiene in chocolate that
I'm going after. If that were the case, I'd crave coke or coffee instead.


But I like chocolate. At times, I crave it. (Generally
pre-menstrually, sometimes other times.) I've wondered about this.
When I get the craving, it is pretty strong. I'll feel like I'll die
without it. I'm exaggerating, but I want to make the point that I've
been known to get up out of a warm house, put on a coat and run down to
the convenience store feeling a little like a drug addict while doing
it. Or I'll make a batch of brownies in the middle of the night.


But then once I've got the chocolate, it takes very little to satisfy
the craving. Only a few ounces. Maybe one of those 1.5 ounce Hershey
bars. Milk chocolate is fine so maybe there's something in the sugar
too. When I bake brownies, I'm nearly always left with 3/4 of the pan
left over which either goes stale or into the freezer. I'm no addict.
Once the brownies are in the freezer, I can forget they're there for a
month.


It happened at work the other day. I felt desperate for chocolate and
bought a 3.5 ounce bar of Dolfin dark chocolate with ginger for $3.50.
I nibbled at it. When it was half gone, I couldn't face the rest and
felt stupid for buying an expensive bar and letting the rest go to
waste. At that point, I felt like eating more would upset my stomach.
(Granted I wasn't feeling well to start. That's the point.)


So what gives? I wouldn't say the drug was putting me into orbit. It
just relieves the craving. I can't explain the feeling any better than
to say that I feel better after getting the chocolate. There's no quick
high and precipitous crash. I just feel better, and the craving doesn't
return in a stronger form. I've been at the 2 ounce stage for my entire
adult life. (It might be 2 ounces/day for 3 days, then none for the
rest of the month.) (I do get more chocolate than that in the form of a
nice dessert here and there. I'm talking about the cravings.)


I'm surely NOT a severe case. No dizzy, spacy, paranoia here, just
cravings. And no strong tolerance from repeated high consumption. If I
crave it more, I'm sure that's because now, in my late 40s, the hormone
swings are more pronounced. I have no scientific basis for this, but
I'd say that the chocolate does have a medicinal effect and a beneficial
one. I can say that because I can feel it. It doesn't seem to hurt me,
and it makes me feel much better. Any insight?


--Li

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
...
Alex Rast wrote:

It's a not-very-well-kept secret of science that much if not most of it
is marketing in disguise, ... Now, the science itself isn't flawed, nor
are the investigators themselves carrying out their research in anything
other than an impartial manner. But it must be understood that the
*motivation* for that research is strongly biassed and has predecided
conclusions in mind. (This is coming from the companies, not from the
scientists). Thus it's usually no coincidence that scientific study, not
to mention popular appeal, often seems to coincide with new
availabilities. Sometimes it's the discoveries that drive the production,
but more often than not it's the other way round. It is therefore
important to take such findings with a very strong grain of salt.


That's a good point, something I hadn't considered but which makes a lot
of sense. Thanks.


High-percentage chocolate has more of the mood-altering chemicals
theobromine, phenyethanine, and caffeine. Like any strong stimulant these
lead to a quick high and a precipitous crash. In severe cases it will
make you dizzy, spacey, and paranoid. Unless you have a strong tolerance
from repeated high-percentage consumption, it's likely that in anything
more than relatively small amounts, the drugs will send you into orbit.
It doesn't help that most high-percentage chocolates are sold in 100g
bars, which, for the average person, is far too much. A new 50g size
that's becoming popular is more realistic. In any case, this is probably
what's making you sick.


I would have thought that the high-percentage chocolates were being sold
in large bars because people were using them as an ingredient in cooking
and baking everything from mousse, chocolate chip cookies, brownies, etc.
So they're buying in big bars because it is less expensive and more
convenient that way same as they buy flour in several pound bags. They're
not necessarily eating it all at once. (Anyone have a comment on this?
Does anyone here buy large bars of chocolate to eat at one sitting or know
anyone who does?)

I buy chunks of Ghiradelli, El Ray, Callebaut or whatever-brand chocolate in
chunks. I cut off a small chunk for eating. This way I don't have to have
THE candy bar. Price is probably less or close to the same as a candy bar.
Right now I am eating semi-sweet chocolate Ghiradelli for $3.49 a lb. It is
completely satisfactory to me and probably too hard for others, but I like
it as well because it doesn't melt too fast in my mouth, and is not waxy.

It must be a state of mind, because you mention flour in several pound bags.
I buy flour and rice in 20-50# bags. I don't like going to the grocery store
often, but when I do, I want it to be an outing, a hunt.
Good luck with your chocolate.
Dee Dee

at Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:24:38 GMT in ,
(Julia Altshuler) wrote :

Alex Rast wrote:

deletia

High-percentage chocolate has more of the mood-altering chemicals
theobromine, phenyethanine, and caffeine....


I would have thought that the high-percentage chocolates were being sold
in large bars because people were using them as an ingredient in
cooking and baking everything from mousse, chocolate chip cookies,
brownies, etc.... Does anyone here buy large bars of chocolate to
eat at one sitting or know anyone who does?)

Not really, because the 100g bars are generally designed for straight
eating. Furthermore, many people who would use chocolate for baking are
actually *confused* with the bar format, having become accustomed to the
little-block format of Baker's brand (which, let me say it again, should
really never be used for anything, not baking and certainly not eating).

I actually do eat 100g at a sitting - that's typical for me and extreme for
me would be more like 1000g. 200g is fairly commonplace. But I'm an
exception. I have both the unusual metabolism on hyperdrive and the
addiction at high tolerance that can take in this much at a time.

....

First, chocolate is the only caffiene containing substance that I like.
.... So I don't think it is the caffiene in chocolate that
I'm going after. If that were the case, I'd crave coke or coffee
instead.

Well, caffeine itself is odourless and tasteless. So the fact that you're
not keen on other caffeine-containing products doesn't necessarily say
anything about any addiction you might have to it, only that you don't like
perhaps the taste of those other products.

But I like chocolate. At times, I crave it. (Generally
pre-menstrually, sometimes other times.) I've wondered about this.
When I get the craving, it is pretty strong. I'll feel like I'll die
without it. I'm exaggerating, but I want to make the point that I've
been known to get up out of a warm house, put on a coat and run down to
the convenience store feeling a little like a drug addict while doing
it. Or I'll make a batch of brownies in the middle of the night.

Generally speaking that kind of craving-oriented addiction is the result of
phenyethanine, a neurotransmitter-mimic that among other things is said to
emulate the feeling of being in love. In any case, if you can associate
your cravings with hormonal swings, which also create changes in
neurotransmitters, then that further strenghtens the case.

...
It happened at work the other day. I felt desperate for chocolate and
bought a 3.5 ounce bar of Dolfin dark chocolate with ginger for $3.50.
I nibbled at it. When it was half gone, I couldn't face the rest and
felt stupid for buying an expensive bar and letting the rest go to
waste.

As I pointed out earlier, that 100g size is really too much for most
people. You aren't to be blamed if after 50g you reached saturation. That's
typical. In theory, if chocolate manufacturers made their wrappers
resealable this problem could be circumvented. But it's difficult, not to
mention expensive, to develop a resealable package that could maintain
chocolate under optimum storage conditions.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Dee Randall wrote:
I buy chunks of Ghiradelli, El Ray, Callebaut or whatever-brand chocolate in
chunks.

Where do you get El Rey in chunks? The only place I know
to find it at all is in eating-size bars at ur la Table.

--Blair

Dee Randall wrote:
I buy chunks of Ghiradelli, El Ray, Callebaut or whatever-brand chocolate in
chunks.

Where do you get El Rey in chunks? The only place I know
to find it at all is in eating-size bars at Sur la Table.

--Blair

"Blair P. Houghton" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dee Randall wrote:
I buy chunks of Ghiradelli, El Ray, Callebaut or whatever-brand chocolate
in
chunks.

Where do you get El Rey in chunks? The only place I know
to find it at all is in eating-size bars at Sur la Table.

I'm pretty sure I saw them at Whole Foods ... over by the bakery
section they sell chunks of chocolate left over from their baking
efforts, I take it. They have plastic wrapped chunks of this and
that, different brands/types. I know I saw El Rey.

Chunks o' chawklet.

nancy

"Blair P. Houghton" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dee Randall wrote:
I buy chunks of Ghiradelli, El Ray, Callebaut or whatever-brand chocolate
in
chunks.

Where do you get El Rey in chunks? The only place I know
to find it at all is in eating-size bars at ur la Table.

--Blair

The last chunks of El Rey I bought was from Whole Foods. I don't know if
they call them "eating-size bars." I call them chunks.
Either Vienna, VA; Falls Church, VA, or the one in Washington, D.C.
Dee Dee

(Alex Rast) wrote in
:

It doesn't help that most high-percentage chocolates
are sold in 100g bars, which, for the average person, is far too much.
A new 50g size that's becoming popular is more realistic. In any case,
this is probably what's making you sick.


I buy Lindt 70% Excellence or Lindt 85% Excellence chocolate from the
supermarket on occasion. It has never occurred to me that anyone would
buy that 100g block to eat all at once. I would eat a few squares, wrap
the rest and put it away. Eat a few more later that day if I was really
feeling like lots of chocolate, and not watching my energy intake g,
otherwise eat a few more squares the next day. My husband eats it as
well, so the bar might last 2 days. I would have thought that's how most
people would deal with it.

They also sell bags of individually wrapped squares, and you can get
either the 70% or 85% (not sure if it's both) in these. Lindt is quite a
popular brand of chocolate here. Each Christmas someone or other usually
gives me some Lindor balls and I really look forward to those - yum!

I've not yet been here - I rarely get into the city anymore - but might
have to plan a trip just to check it out.

http://www.bandt.com.au/news/7d/0c028f7d.asp

Rhonda Anderson
Cranebrook, NSW, Australia

Alex Rast wrote:

Well, caffeine itself is odourless and tasteless. So the fact that you're
not keen on other caffeine-containing products doesn't necessarily say
anything about any addiction you might have to it, only that you don't like
perhaps the taste of those other products.


I wouldn't guess that it works that way. My experience with attraction
to a particular ingredient or chemical component of food (I'm trying to
avoid the word addiction because I'm not sure I'm talking about a true
medical addiction, but that's the idea I'm getting at) or unusual
dislike for a food (I need a word for opposite of addiction or
anti-addiction) is that it needn't have anything to do with liking the
taste. That would be like saying that nicotine addicts like the taste
and sensation of smoking when in fact they like the feeling nicotine
gives them, have come to associate it with smoking, and like the taste
of smoke as a result-- all without consciously understanding what order
those came in. That's almost certainly the way it is with me and
chocolate. I do like the taste of chocolate, but I like lots of sweets,
and the craving is particularly for chocolate. Why couldn't it be like
that with caffiene as well? That I've tried caffiene containing coffee
and soft drinks, haven't liked the feeling I get as a result, and
backtrack to not liking the drinks? The evidence seems to lead to that
conclusion since, since early childhood, I've liked the soft drinks
without caffiene and have never cared for the ones with it.


Generally speaking that kind of craving-oriented addiction is the result of
phenyethanine, a neurotransmitter-mimic that among other things is said to
emulate the feeling of being in love. In any case, if you can associate
your cravings with hormonal swings, which also create changes in
neurotransmitters, then that further strenghtens the case.


Caffiene is put into products where it isn't naturally occuring. People
buy soft drinks, even water, with caffiene in them. I want some
marketing genius to put that phenynethanine you're talking about into
something else. I want to buy it in pill form. No, I want to inject it
directly. I wouldn't say the feeling I get from chocolate is like being
in love (I've been in love, and it's a far greater high), but there is
something wonderful about it.


--Lia

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:11:28 GMT,Rhonda Anderson, wrote

(Alex Rast) wrote in
:

It doesn't help that most high-percentage chocolates
are sold in 100g bars, which, for the average person, is far too much.
A new 50g size that's becoming popular is more realistic. In any case,
this is probably what's making you sick.


I buy Lindt 70% Excellence or Lindt 85% Excellence chocolate from
the supermarket on occasion. It has never occurred to me that
anyone would buy that 100g block to eat all at once. I would eat a
few squares, wrap the rest and put it away. Eat a few more later
that day if I was really feeling like lots of chocolate, and not
watching my energy intake g, otherwise eat a few more squares the
next day. My husband eats it as well, so the bar might last 2 days.
I would have thought that's how most people would deal with it.

The problem is that people are used to small Hershey milk chocolate
bars and try to eat the large hi-cocoa solids bars in the same way.

I buy large bars at Trader Joes and can make a Pound Plus bar
last 20 days to a month.


They also sell bags of individually wrapped squares, and you can get
either the 70% or 85% (not sure if it's both) in these. Lindt is
quite a popular brand of chocolate here. Each Christmas someone or
other usually gives me some Lindor balls and I really look forward
to those - yum!

I've not yet been here - I rarely get into the city anymore - but
might have to plan a trip just to check it out.

http://www.bandt.com.au/news/7d/0c028f7d.asp

Rhonda Anderson
Cranebrook, NSW, Australia

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

In article ,
"Dee Randall" wrote:

Where do you get El Rey in chunks? The only place I know
to find it at all is in eating-size bars at ur la Table.

--Blair

The last chunks of El Rey I bought was from Whole Foods. I don't know if
they call them "eating-size bars." I call them chunks.
Either Vienna, VA; Falls Church, VA, or the one in Washington, D.C.

The Whole Foods in St. Paul, Minnesota, carries El Ray also. Or at
least they did the last time I was in there (a few months ago; I'd
rather shop at my co-op). So it may be a product available
chain-wide.

sd

From: "Dee Randall"
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:15:57 -0500

I bought an 8 oz. container of "Organic Trader Joe's Cocoa Poweder for
drinking and baking USDA Organic" "USDA Organic." The price seemed right
for organic. I've not tried it yet. On the label it says, "This organic
cocoa powder is made from South American beans that grow within the Peruvian
jungle along the Andean Mountains. A high percentage of criollo and
trinitario beans create a low acidity and distinct flavor characteristic
that makes this cocoa powder perfect for all applications." "This is
non-alkalized, gluten-free product." Has anyone tried it yet?

I've been using it for cocoa. I like Rapunzel a little more, but this
isn't bad. I'm really glad Trader Joes has done this because the
alternative there was full of sugar, which I don't care for. (I guess I
lean towards the bittersweet.)

Thanks,
Dee Dee

I bought an 8 oz. container of "Organic Trader Joe's Cocoa Poweder for
drinking and baking USDA Organic" "USDA Organic."

I was not very impressed with it.

I noticed something else. Some of the large Chain Drug Stores, Rite
Aid in this particular case, are starting to carry more dark chocolate
items.

Dark chocolate is increasing in popularity. If I remember aright from
the recent Forbes article, Dark Chocolate consumption has grown 11% in
the past four years, vs. a 3.9% increase in the chocolate market
over-all.

I would guess that it is due to a variety of factors. One is that older
folks prefer dark chocolate, and, combined with a "nostalgic" tendency
to pull childhood things into adulthood, has older people eating more
chocolate, and thus more dark chocolate. At the same time, increasing
numbers have been exposed to good, European chocolates, and that helps
set their tastes.

Another factor is the snob/nothing-is-too-good-for-me current in
contemporary US society. The big number in the Forbes article is that
the premium chocolate market has grown by 20% annually since 2000.
Given that, it is hardly surprising that dark chocolate is becoming
more popular.

freedom4all wrote:

I'm so excited to tell you about this wonderful tasting
healthy chocolate!

Uh oh. This posting is off to a really bad start.

Did you know that doctors are telling us that we should
be eating the right kind of dark chocolate for our health
(see October 2005 Prevention Magazine)? Dark Chocolate
can improve your cardiovascular health, your blood
pressure, your sugar metabolism and relieve inflammation
in the body among many other benefits.

Relive your pocketbook of uncomfortable bloating
and fullness?

So why shouldn't you just eat a Dove bar? Well . . . the
chocolate found in candy is PROCESSED chocolate and it is
laden with fat, wax, fillers, preservatives and sugar.
Xocai contains completely natural, unprocessed chocolate
which retains 100% of its antioxidant and nutritional value!
In addition Xocai contains no fat, no sugar is high
in fiber AND tastes wonderful!

How can it be UNPROCESSED and contain NO FAT? The cacao
bean is naturally high in fat (cocoa butter). It isn't
chocolate if it doesn't have some fat, and it certainly
isn't unprocessed if it contains no fat.

And if it were completely unprocessed, it would not
resemble chocolate at all. For one thing, it would
not be dark. Raw dried cacao beans are almost white
and rather bland, like a cashew nut. The dark color
and powerful chocolate flavor are developed during
a fermentation process, and further developed by
roasting.

The claims you have made for your product could not
possibly be true.