I picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...id=1126808676/
sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8697222-1580023?v=glance&s=books

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."

The ingredients a unbleached AP flour, baking soda (1/2 tsp), baking
powder (1/4 tsp), salt, unsalted butter, sugar, an egg, vanilla extract,
and an optional 1/2 tsp lemon extract.

First, what could the acid be? What would interact with the baking soda?
If nothing, why add baking soda? Second, it DOES have baking powder,
too, so what's she talking about about choosing to use baking soda? I
know that some recipes use both, but (a), baking soda is often used to
also neutralize an acid, and (b) she seems to imply she was substituting
one for the other. OK, maybe that's a nitpick. Third, by saying that
baking soda makes the cookies spread rather than puff, doesn't that mean
it ISN'T a leavening agent here? And finally, how on earth would baking
soda add "a wonderful buttery flavor"???

--
to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"

http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/

"Scott" wrote in message
...
I picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...id=1126808676/
sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8697222-1580023?v=glance&s=books

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."

The ingredients a unbleached AP flour, baking soda (1/2 tsp), baking
powder (1/4 tsp), salt, unsalted butter, sugar, an egg, vanilla extract,
and an optional 1/2 tsp lemon extract.

First, what could the acid be?


In the baking powder.

baking powder
A LEAVENER containing a combination of baking soda, an acid (such as CREAM OF
TARTAR) and a moisture-absorber (such as cornstarch). When mixed with liquid,
baking powder releases carbon dioxide gas bubbles that cause a bread or cake to
rise. There are three basic kinds of baking powder. The most common is
double-acting, which releases some gas when it becomes wet and the rest when
exposed to oven heat. Single-acting tartrate and phosphate baking powders (hard
to find in most American markets because of the popularity of double-acting
baking powder) release their gases as soon as they're moistened. Because it's
perishable, baking powder should be kept in a cool, dry place. Always check the
date on the bottom of a baking-powder can before purchasing it. To test if a
baking powder still packs a punch, combine 1 teaspoon of it with 1/3 cup hot
water. If it bubbles enthusiastically, it's fine.


What would interact with the baking soda?

see above

If nothing, why add baking soda? Second, it DOES have baking powder,
too, so what's she talking about about choosing to use baking soda? I
know that some recipes use both, but (a), baking soda is often used to
also neutralize an acid,

And cause Fizz.....


baking soda
Also known as bicarbonate of soda , baking soda is used as a LEAVENER in baked
goods. When combined with an acid ingredient such as buttermilk, yogurt or
molasses, baking soda produces carbon dioxide gas bubbles, thereby causing a
dough or batter to rise. Because it reacts immediately when moistened, it should
always be mixed with the other dry ingredients before adding any liquid; the
resulting batter should be placed in the oven immediately. At one time, baking
soda was used in the cooking water of green vegetables to preserve their color.
That practice was discontinued, however, when it was discovered that baking soda
destroys the vitamin C content of vegetables.
© Copyright Barron's Educational Services, Inc. 1995 based on THE FOOD LOVER'S
COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon Tyler

and (b) she seems to imply she was substituting
one for the other. OK, maybe that's a nitpick. Third, by saying that
baking soda makes the cookies spread rather than puff, doesn't that mean
it ISN'T a leavening agent here? And finally, how on earth would baking
soda add "a wonderful buttery flavor"???

Don't know.other than the possibel added sodium.


Dimitri

"Scott" wrote in message
...
I picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...id=1126808676/
sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8697222-1580023?v=glance&s=books

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."


The baking soda will reduce the pH, and may marginally strengthen the gluten
and increase browning. I can't see how it CAUSES spreading. I see
spreading being a function of the melting profile of the fat and the oven
temperature. It may allow spreading because without an acid, it does
nothing. In other words, it is passive and the spreading has been
erroneously attributed to it. It' like saying that drinking alcohol at a
bar makes people appear sexy and attractive, while drinking water makes them
appear ordinary and dull.

Scott wrote:
picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743246829/qid=11268086...

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."

Baking soda in the absence of any acid salt will make the cookie dough
slightly alkaline. Now alkaline conditions will alsoto promote
Maillard's reaction promoting the formation of flavors.
The ingredients a unbleached AP flour, baking soda (1/2 tsp), baking
powder (1/4 tsp), salt, unsalted butter, sugar, an egg, vanilla extract,
and an optional 1/2 tsp lemon extract.
First, what could the acid be? What would interact with the baking soda?

If baking soda is heated:
2NaHCO3 ( heat) = Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2, it does not need any acid to
release the gas which can contribute some leavening action.

If nothing, why add baking soda?

It is added primarily to generate CO2 but it has other effect on the
cookie dough also.
Baking soda is used alone in some cookie formulation but in my
experience is not the best leavening salt; I prefer ammonium
bicarbonate instead as it can produce more gases per molecule of the
salt
NH4HCO3 ( heat) = NH3 +CO2 + H2O
Therefore for every molecule of ammonium bicarbonate it releases three
molecule of leavening gases; ammonia, carbon dioxide, and steam .
Where as two molecules of baking soda as shown above will only release
a molecule each of carbon dioxide and steam.. Therefore in per molecule
basis ( NaHCO3)its not efficient. Besides the sodium ion has a
tightening effect on the protein due ionic bonding with the amino acids
in the protein molecule which can confer some stabilizing effect .
Now if the thesis is cookie spread, the reason for that is the cookie
dough alkalinity which will tend to loosen the gluten structure but not
much exhibited by baking soda actually.
The pH of the ammonium bicarbonate leavened cookie is slightly higher
and so promote more dough relaxation allowing it to spread better
resulting in flatter cookie with wider diameter than the ones leavened
with baking soda.
As the ammonia does not form a tigher ionic bond than the sodium oon
the cookie texture is more loose and so tends to spreads more.
The only advantage of baking soda against bicarbonate of ammonia (
baking ammonia) is that it does not leave any ammoniacal smell to the
cookie.
But I don't see that the spread factor( the ratio of the cookie
diameter to its height is significant with baking soda and that can be
influenced also by the amount of fat present in the recipe as well as
the nature of the flour used.

Second, it DOES have baking powder,

That is self explanatory, baking soda alone does not leaven the cookie
dough efficiently but needs a boost from the baking powder. Besides it
needs a higher temperature for the baking soda to evolve the needed
carbon dioxide so if used alone and baked at moderate baking
temperature you will not get what you expect in terms of leavening
performance.. In addition the reaction of baking powder once its
hydrated allow for the formation of some gas cells which are expanded
by the released steam and CO2 from the oven heat release of baking soda
and from residual amount of baking soda in the baking powder

too, so what's she talking about about choosing to use baking soda?

I would say that her selection is opinionated based upon her limited
experience in chemical leavening application .. If she happened to be
well experienced and more knowledgeable with the chemistry of
leavening agents she should not say that! I

know that some recipes use both, but (a), baking soda is often used to
also neutralize an acid,

You are right, baking soda is used in baking with acidulant for the
efficient release of the carbon dioxide

and (b) she seems to imply she was substituting
one for the other. OK, maybe that's a nitpick

Her employment of two CO2 generating agents is due to the fact that
with a slightly alkaline dough due to the formation of sodium carbonate
will promote the cookie to brown faster resulting in a nice cookie
color if baked at just moderate temperatures. If she is only employing
baking powder it will appear to be pale colored as the slightly acidic
dough does not promote the cookie crust to brown .
Besides the crumb color will be not pale colored as well for the same
reason.

Third, by saying that
baking soda makes the cookies spread rather than puff, doesn't that mean
it ISN'T a leavening agent here?

I have already stated above the reasons for spreading . but its
presence will add a bit more of CO2 to added baking powder.

And finally, how on earth would baking
soda add "a wonderful buttery flavor"???

It is self explanatory,s the uses butter here which when it heated
volatilizes the aroma components , and is the main source of butter
flavor.
But it does not hold if you use a bland tasting fat in the dough and I
had confirmed thate extensively in the past.
Butter flavor can arise if you use substances that contains it such as
added butter flavor, the use of some margarines and surely of pure
butter and anhydrous milk fat.
Even the use of full cream milk and buttermilk seems to generate the
buttery aroma also in cookies.
I have used baking soda /baking powder tandem in the past to leaven
some cookies containing vegetable shortening and I get a different
smell , artificial and unappetizing more soapy in character. These is
due to minimal fat breakdown resulting in the release of fatty acids
which will combine with the sodium ion to forms soapy tasting cookie

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:27:33 GMT, Vox Humana wrote:

. It' like saying that drinking alcohol at a
bar makes people appear sexy and attractive, while drinking water makes them
appear ordinary and dull.


I don't know about you, but I found that to be true. YMMV hic

Pan Ohco

Vox Humana wrote:

erroneously attributed to it. It' like saying that drinking alcohol at a
bar makes people appear sexy and attractive, while drinking water makes
them appear ordinary and dull.

Drinking alcohol makes *me* more sexy and attractive. It also makes me ten
feet tall and bulletproof.

Bob

"chembake" wrote in message
oups.com...

Scott wrote:
picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743246829/qid=11268086...

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."

Baking soda in the absence of any acid salt will make the cookie dough
slightly alkaline. Now alkaline conditions will alsoto promote
Maillard's reaction promoting the formation of flavors.
The ingredients a unbleached AP flour, baking soda (1/2 tsp), baking
powder (1/4 tsp), salt, unsalted butter, sugar, an egg, vanilla extract,
and an optional 1/2 tsp lemon extract.
First, what could the acid be? What would interact with the baking soda?

If baking soda is heated:
2NaHCO3 ( heat) = Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2, it does not need any acid to
release the gas which can contribute some leavening action.

If nothing, why add baking soda?

It is added primarily to generate CO2 but it has other effect on the
cookie dough also.
Baking soda is used alone in some cookie formulation but in my
experience is not the best leavening salt; I prefer ammonium
bicarbonate instead as it can produce more gases per molecule of the
salt
NH4HCO3 ( heat) = NH3 +CO2 + H2O
Therefore for every molecule of ammonium bicarbonate it releases three
molecule of leavening gases; ammonia, carbon dioxide, and steam .
Where as two molecules of baking soda as shown above will only release
a molecule each of carbon dioxide and steam.. Therefore in per molecule
basis ( NaHCO3)its not efficient. Besides the sodium ion has a
tightening effect on the protein due ionic bonding with the amino acids
in the protein molecule which can confer some stabilizing effect .
Now if the thesis is cookie spread, the reason for that is the cookie
dough alkalinity which will tend to loosen the gluten structure but not
much exhibited by baking soda actually.
The pH of the ammonium bicarbonate leavened cookie is slightly higher
and so promote more dough relaxation allowing it to spread better
resulting in flatter cookie with wider diameter than the ones leavened
with baking soda.
As the ammonia does not form a tigher ionic bond than the sodium oon
the cookie texture is more loose and so tends to spreads more.
The only advantage of baking soda against bicarbonate of ammonia (
baking ammonia) is that it does not leave any ammoniacal smell to the
cookie.
But I don't see that the spread factor( the ratio of the cookie
diameter to its height is significant with baking soda and that can be
influenced also by the amount of fat present in the recipe as well as
the nature of the flour used.

Second, it DOES have baking powder,

That is self explanatory, baking soda alone does not leaven the cookie
dough efficiently but needs a boost from the baking powder. Besides it
needs a higher temperature for the baking soda to evolve the needed
carbon dioxide so if used alone and baked at moderate baking
temperature you will not get what you expect in terms of leavening
performance.. In addition the reaction of baking powder once its
hydrated allow for the formation of some gas cells which are expanded
by the released steam and CO2 from the oven heat release of baking soda
and from residual amount of baking soda in the baking powder

too, so what's she talking about about choosing to use baking soda?

I would say that her selection is opinionated based upon her limited
experience in chemical leavening application .. If she happened to be
well experienced and more knowledgeable with the chemistry of
leavening agents she should not say that! I

know that some recipes use both, but (a), baking soda is often used to
also neutralize an acid,

You are right, baking soda is used in baking with acidulant for the
efficient release of the carbon dioxide

and (b) she seems to imply she was substituting
one for the other. OK, maybe that's a nitpick

Her employment of two CO2 generating agents is due to the fact that
with a slightly alkaline dough due to the formation of sodium carbonate
will promote the cookie to brown faster resulting in a nice cookie
color if baked at just moderate temperatures. If she is only employing
baking powder it will appear to be pale colored as the slightly acidic
dough does not promote the cookie crust to brown .
Besides the crumb color will be not pale colored as well for the same
reason.

Third, by saying that
baking soda makes the cookies spread rather than puff, doesn't that mean
it ISN'T a leavening agent here?

I have already stated above the reasons for spreading . but its
presence will add a bit more of CO2 to added baking powder.

And finally, how on earth would baking
soda add "a wonderful buttery flavor"???

It is self explanatory,s the uses butter here which when it heated
volatilizes the aroma components , and is the main source of butter
flavor.
But it does not hold if you use a bland tasting fat in the dough and I
had confirmed thate extensively in the past.
Butter flavor can arise if you use substances that contains it such as
added butter flavor, the use of some margarines and surely of pure
butter and anhydrous milk fat.
Even the use of full cream milk and buttermilk seems to generate the
buttery aroma also in cookies.
I have used baking soda /baking powder tandem in the past to leaven
some cookies containing vegetable shortening and I get a different
smell , artificial and unappetizing more soapy in character. These is
due to minimal fat breakdown resulting in the release of fatty acids
which will combine with the sodium ion to forms soapy tasting cookie



Yeah! OK! Yep! Mmmm! Yeah! Umm! Ah ha!!

Hi Jen,

I am pleased to know that the 'baking powder chemistry'was your
'intellectual frreplay' that led you to a state of orgasm grin.


Yeah! OK! Yep! Mmmm! Yeah! Umm! Ah ha!!

"chembake" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Jen,

I am pleased to know that the 'baking powder chemistry'was your
'intellectual frreplay' that led you to a state of orgasm grin.


Yeah! OK! Yep! Mmmm! Yeah! Umm! Ah ha!!


Oh yeah! It was good!!

Jen

My pleasure....if I had contributed somehow in stimulating you
intellectually....!
More is to come..in due time..if some interesting queries comes up....I
will keep on 'fondling ' you ' lovingly 'so as to keep you in a
multiple orgasmic delirium....grin.

Jen wrote:
"chembake" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Jen,

I am pleased to know that the 'baking powder chemistry'was your
'intellectual frreplay' that led you to a state of orgasm grin.


Yeah! OK! Yep! Mmmm! Yeah! Umm! Ah ha!!


Oh yeah! It was good!!

Jen

In article ,
"Dimitri" wrote:

First, what could the acid be?


In the baking powder.

But the acid in the baking powder SHOULD be just enough to react to the
baking soda contained in the BAKING POWDER. There shouldn't be enough
left over to react with the additional baking soda. Baking powder should
net neutral, the two components canceling each other out.

Just defining the basics of baking soda and baking powder doesn't add
any new information to the question--the definitions were implied
already.


If nothing, why add baking soda? Second, it DOES have baking powder,
too, so what's she talking about about choosing to use baking soda? I
know that some recipes use both, but (a), baking soda is often used to
also neutralize an acid,

And cause Fizz.....

That's why I said "ALSO neutralize..." (emphasis added). If baking
powder is being added for leavening purposes, baking soda is sometimes
added to smooth the taste of the recipe by neutralizing excess acid.

--
to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"

http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/

"Scott" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dimitri" wrote:

First, what could the acid be?


In the baking powder.

But the acid in the baking powder SHOULD be just enough to react to the
baking soda contained in the BAKING POWDER. There shouldn't be enough
left over to react with the additional baking soda. Baking powder should
net neutral, the two components canceling each other out.

If you look at the original toll house recipe there is no powder at all, all
you need is soda.

Dimitri

2 1/4 cups all-purpose flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 teaspoon salt
1 cup (2 sticks) butter or margarine, softened
3/4 cup granulated sugar
3/4 cup packed brown sugar
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
2 large eggs
2 cups (12-ounce package) NESTLÉ TOLL HOUSE Semi-Sweet Chocolate Morsels
1 cup chopped nuts

"Scott" wrote in message
...
I picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...id=1126808676/
sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8697222-1580023?v=glance&s=books

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."

The ingredients a unbleached AP flour, baking soda (1/2 tsp), baking
powder (1/4 tsp), salt, unsalted butter, sugar, an egg, vanilla extract,
and an optional 1/2 tsp lemon extract.


Butter is acidic.

Buttermaking involves converting cream, an emulsion of butterfat-in-serum, into
butter, an emulsion of serum in butterfat. The cream has about 40% butterfat and
finished butter has about 80%. Ingredients include water, curd and salt. Raw
milk pH levels are between 6.5 and 6.8. Measuring the pH detects the presence of
lactic acid that can lower the pH and affect the flavor. Sometimes depressed pH
in milk or cream can be corrected by neutralizing with sodium carbonate and
sodium hydroxide. The raw milk is then separated into cream and skim milk and
the cream is pasteurized. The cream must cool before churning. A byproduct of
churning is buttermilk, which is drained before the water and salt are mixed in.
The butter is then packaged. The final pH value should be near 5 for maximum
flavor.

Dimitri

"chembake" wrote in message
oups.com...

My pleasure....if I had contributed somehow in stimulating you
intellectually....!
More is to come..in due time..if some interesting queries comes up....I
will keep on 'fondling ' you ' lovingly 'so as to keep you in a
multiple orgasmic delirium....grin.



OOOOHHHHHHHHH! Can't wait.

Jen

"Dimitri" wrote in message
. ..

"Scott" wrote in message
...
I picked up a copy of Baking 9-1-1 by Sarah Phillips,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...id=1126808676/
sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-8697222-1580023?v=glance&s=books

and came across a statement that piqued my interest. In her recipe for
sugar cookies, she writes "most cookies use baking powder for leavening;
I chose to use baking soda. It causes the cookies to spread rather than
puff, perfect for a crispy cookie, and have a wonderful buttery flavor
you can't get with baking powder."

The ingredients a unbleached AP flour, baking soda (1/2 tsp), baking
powder (1/4 tsp), salt, unsalted butter, sugar, an egg, vanilla extract,
and an optional 1/2 tsp lemon extract.


Butter is acidic.

As is the brown sugar.