I highly recommend this book! Although the cover says it is an edible
history of 5 immigrant families in one New York Tenement, it's not really
that, IMO.

http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Imm...=97+orchard+st

I am not finished with the book yet. Although the book does mention the
families that moved into the building, little is said about them once they
moved into it. But I guess that's okay. It's still very interesting. It
talks about what the immigrants from various places ate in the country they
came from and what they ate once they got here. How the foods that we eat
have changed over the years. There are recipes and pictures, many of them
being drawings.

The markets were described as hideous places, filthy and dirty with giblets
everywhere and scraps of meat just swept to the side. Also very crowded.
And it talks of how the first customers (as early as 4:00 a.m.) were
restaurants, caterers and grocers. In those days the tenement buildings had
small grocers in the basements or at ground level. The housewife only
needed to walk downstairs to procure food on credit. But... If she needed
to do more shopping, she had to go to the market.


Still early in the morning at the market came the well heeled (rich) or
their servants, then the middle class and at the end of the day, the very
poor who might have to make do with spoiled food. No refrigeration in those
days and the food got cheaper as the day wore on.

Many of these tenement buildings where they lived were not even cold water
flats. No running water whatever and the housewife often had to haul it up
and down 4 flights of stairs. The description of what one woman went through
to make gefiltefish was amazing!

Dispels some food myths such as the hamburger being American. It is
actually German. I did know this. And that the Irish ate corned beef. A
lot of food history about Ireland is in this book, including the potato
famine. Talks of what they ate prior to potatoes (grains, vegetables and
hunks of butter eaten like cheese as it was so plentiful). How they cooked
and ate the potatoes when they came. Often boiled in skins with free sea
vegetables for flavor. Eaten straight on the table or floor if no table.
They had no plates or forks in those days. The family picked up the potato,
peeled off the skin and ate.

Says that most of the Irish were so poor they had meat rarely if ever and
that corned beef was only eaten by the well to do or perhaps at places where
a traveler would go, making it appear as if it were commonly eaten.

Also said that native Americans (I think by this they mean not American
Indians per se but American citizens) were not allowed to work as servants
which is why they used the immigrants as such. In those days the housewives
were never taught to cook at all and many of the cooks they got were Irish
who had no idea how to use our stoves or what to do with the food that we
had here. Oysters were prominent on the various menus.

There is much more to the book but I find it all very fascinating and I
highly recommend this book even if you're not an American!

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
> I highly recommend this book! Although the cover says it is an edible
> history of 5 immigrant families in one New York Tenement, it's not really
> that, IMO.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Imm...=97+orchard+st
>
> I am not finished with the book yet. Although the book does mention the
> families that moved into the building, little is said about them once they
> moved into it. But I guess that's okay. It's still very interesting. It
> talks about what the immigrants from various places ate in the country
> they came from and what they ate once they got here. How the foods that
> we eat have changed over the years. There are recipes and pictures, many
> of them being drawings.
>
> The markets were described as hideous places, filthy and dirty with
> giblets everywhere and scraps of meat just swept to the side. Also very
> crowded. And it talks of how the first customers (as early as 4:00 a.m.)
> were restaurants, caterers and grocers. In those days the tenement
> buildings had small grocers in the basements or at ground level. The
> housewife only needed to walk downstairs to procure food on credit.
> But... If she needed to do more shopping, she had to go to the market.
>
>
> Still early in the morning at the market came the well heeled (rich) or
> their servants, then the middle class and at the end of the day, the very
> poor who might have to make do with spoiled food. No refrigeration in
> those days and the food got cheaper as the day wore on.
>
> Many of these tenement buildings where they lived were not even cold water
> flats. No running water whatever and the housewife often had to haul it up
> and down 4 flights of stairs. The description of what one woman went
> through to make gefiltefish was amazing!
>
> Dispels some food myths such as the hamburger being American. It is
> actually German. I did know this. And that the Irish ate corned beef. A
> lot of food history about Ireland is in this book, including the potato
> famine. Talks of what they ate prior to potatoes (grains, vegetables and
> hunks of butter eaten like cheese as it was so plentiful). How they
> cooked and ate the potatoes when they came. Often boiled in skins with
> free sea vegetables for flavor. Eaten straight on the table or floor if
> no table. They had no plates or forks in those days. The family picked up
> the potato, peeled off the skin and ate.
>
> Says that most of the Irish were so poor they had meat rarely if ever and
> that corned beef was only eaten by the well to do or perhaps at places
> where a traveler would go, making it appear as if it were commonly eaten.
>
> Also said that native Americans (I think by this they mean not American
> Indians per se but American citizens) were not allowed to work as servants
> which is why they used the immigrants as such. In those days the
> housewives were never taught to cook at all and many of the cooks they got
> were Irish who had no idea how to use our stoves or what to do with the
> food that we had here. Oysters were prominent on the various menus.
>
> There is much more to the book but I find it all very fascinating and I
> highly recommend this book even if you're not an American!

Thanks, Julie! My field was social history but I haven't read any US social
history. I am tempted

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:

> When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
> stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
> as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
>
>

That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human
ballast? It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they
can still be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the stuff.

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I highly recommend this book! Although the cover says it is an edible
>> history of 5 immigrant families in one New York Tenement, it's not really
>> that, IMO.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Imm...=97+orchard+st
>>
>> I am not finished with the book yet. Although the book does mention the
>> families that moved into the building, little is said about them once
>> they moved into it. But I guess that's okay. It's still very
>> interesting. It talks about what the immigrants from various places ate
>> in the country they came from and what they ate once they got here. How
>> the foods that we eat have changed over the years. There are recipes and
>> pictures, many of them being drawings.
>>
>> The markets were described as hideous places, filthy and dirty with
>> giblets everywhere and scraps of meat just swept to the side. Also very
>> crowded. And it talks of how the first customers (as early as 4:00 a.m.)
>> were restaurants, caterers and grocers. In those days the tenement
>> buildings had small grocers in the basements or at ground level. The
>> housewife only needed to walk downstairs to procure food on credit.
>> But... If she needed to do more shopping, she had to go to the market.
>>
>>
>> Still early in the morning at the market came the well heeled (rich) or
>> their servants, then the middle class and at the end of the day, the very
>> poor who might have to make do with spoiled food. No refrigeration in
>> those days and the food got cheaper as the day wore on.
>>
>> Many of these tenement buildings where they lived were not even cold
>> water flats. No running water whatever and the housewife often had to
>> haul it up and down 4 flights of stairs. The description of what one
>> woman went through to make gefiltefish was amazing!
>>
>> Dispels some food myths such as the hamburger being American. It is
>> actually German. I did know this. And that the Irish ate corned beef.
>> A lot of food history about Ireland is in this book, including the potato
>> famine. Talks of what they ate prior to potatoes (grains, vegetables and
>> hunks of butter eaten like cheese as it was so plentiful). How they
>> cooked and ate the potatoes when they came. Often boiled in skins with
>> free sea vegetables for flavor. Eaten straight on the table or floor if
>> no table. They had no plates or forks in those days. The family picked
>> up the potato, peeled off the skin and ate.
>>
>> Says that most of the Irish were so poor they had meat rarely if ever and
>> that corned beef was only eaten by the well to do or perhaps at places
>> where a traveler would go, making it appear as if it were commonly eaten.
>>
>> Also said that native Americans (I think by this they mean not American
>> Indians per se but American citizens) were not allowed to work as
>> servants which is why they used the immigrants as such. In those days
>> the housewives were never taught to cook at all and many of the cooks
>> they got were Irish who had no idea how to use our stoves or what to do
>> with the food that we had here. Oysters were prominent on the various
>> menus.
>>
>> There is much more to the book but I find it all very fascinating and I
>> highly recommend this book even if you're not an American!
>
> Thanks, Julie! My field was social history but I haven't read any US
> social history. I am tempted
>
I just got to the part about the pigs running loose in NY and how the Jewish
schmaltz was originally from geese. How they used to force feed the geese
and how the police stamped out people who were raising geese in basements.
Eventually they substituted chicken for the geese.

This book isn't just about the US as it also mentions the countries where
these people came from and what their cooking was like there.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:
>
>> When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
>> stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
>> as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
>>
>>
>
> That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
> keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human ballast?
> It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they can still
> be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the stuff.

Indeed! The book does mention that the first ships that came here had the
people sleeping in steerage with a very tiny space per person. They were
expected to bring their own food and they had an area to cook it in but it
was not sufficient and many survived only by gagging down a raw paste of
flour and water.

Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves "corns"
of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.

On 2/16/2014 7:01 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:
>
>> When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
>> stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
>> as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
>>
>>
>
> That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
> keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human
> ballast? It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they
> can still be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the stuff.
>
But they could use the cash to buy important thing like whiskey. Or
women. The ships were bringing in more people than they were taking
back so there may have been surplus.

On 2014-02-16 7:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>> That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
>> keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human
>> ballast? It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they
>> can still be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the stuff.
>>
> But they could use the cash to buy important thing like whiskey. Or
> women. The ships were bringing in more people than they were taking
> back so there may have been surplus.

In a lot of cases the human cargo was basically ballast. There were
strange things going on in Scotland and Ireland. Ships were sailing from
the US and Canada loaded with all sorts of furs, wood and other raw
materials. They needed something in their holds for the return trip.
It was cheap to sail to North America. Some of the land owners were
paying for the people under them just to get rid of them. Many of the
Scots had only the clothes on their back and a sack of oats to get them
over to NA.

Speaking of whiskey... during the War of 1812 they government had to
restrict the production of whiskey. Between war related shortages and
shipping problems there was not enough grain for food because so much of
it was being used to produced alcohol.

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 19:35:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> On 2/16/2014 7:01 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> > On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:
> >
> >> When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
> >> stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
> >> as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
> > keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human
> > ballast? It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they
> > can still be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the stuff.
> >
> But they could use the cash to buy important thing like whiskey. Or
> women. The ships were bringing in more people than they were taking
> back so there may have been surplus.

I'm wondering if they were past their expiration date? No,
seriously... those things won't last forever, even sitting in brine.


--

Good Food.
Good Friends.
Good Memories.

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 19:45:03 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> Speaking of whiskey... during the War of 1812 they government had to
> restrict the production of whiskey. Between war related shortages and
> shipping problems there was not enough grain for food because so much of
> it was being used to produced alcohol.

Holy Mother of God, how ever did they manage?


--

Good Food.
Good Friends.
Good Memories.

"The Other Guy" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 16:30:06 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>>Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
>>brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>>corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>>"corns"
>>of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>
> Yes, that's what 'corned' meant. Today, pickling spice is added for
> flavor. The brining was the preservative.

But they mentioned two different meats. Brined and corned so they sounded
in some way different.

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/16/2014 7:01 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:
>>
>>> When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
>>> stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
>>> as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
>> keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human
>> ballast? It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they
>> can still be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the stuff.
>>
> But they could use the cash to buy important thing like whiskey. Or women.
> The ships were bringing in more people than they were taking back so there
> may have been surplus.

One Irish woman who wrote home said that they should bring whiskey to give
to the ship workers as it couldn't hurt.

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 19:35:39 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On 2/16/2014 7:01 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> > On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:
>> >
>> >> When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
>> >> stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
>> >> as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
>> > keep it for the return voyage, or to feed the next load of human
>> > ballast? It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell preserved foods is they
>> > can still be used, and the ships are going to have to re-stock the
>> > stuff.
>> >
>> But they could use the cash to buy important thing like whiskey. Or
>> women. The ships were bringing in more people than they were taking
>> back so there may have been surplus.
>
> I'm wondering if they were past their expiration date? No,
> seriously... those things won't last forever, even sitting in brine.

The book indicates that there was a market for rancid meat and moldy bread.
The very poor had no choice but to buy things like that.

I read another book (true story) of a mother who bought floor sweepings at
the end of the day from a produce market. They were sold to her for very
cheap. She used some to make soup and she trimmed fruit for her kids to eat
but most was sold in a little "shop" that she put in her living room.
People were so poor in that neighborhood it was all they could afford to
eat.

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>

> Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
> brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
> corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
> "corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.

Yes they are, which is why I got terribly confused when I heard about people
here making their corned beef I seem to remember asking where they got
their corns of salt from.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>
>> Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
>> brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>> corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>> "corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>
> Yes they are, which is why I got terribly confused when I heard about
> people here making their corned beef I seem to remember asking where
> they got their corns of salt from.

Am reading another food book now and it mentioned beef in brine. Does not
say corned beef. And it also mentioned corned beef which seems to be
different.

Here is a recipe for brined. There are others:

http://www.sunprairiebeef.com/recipe...e-a-roast.html

Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>
>>> Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
>>> brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>>> corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>>> "corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>>
>> Yes they are, which is why I got terribly confused when I heard about
>> people here making their corned beef I seem to remember asking where
>> they got their corns of salt from.
>
> Am reading another food book now and it mentioned beef in brine. Does not
> say corned beef. And it also mentioned corned beef which seems to be
> different.
>
> Here is a recipe for brined. There are others:
>
> http://www.sunprairiebeef.com/recipe...e-a-roast.html
>
> Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>
> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html

Interesting Thanks I am interested in the brining. Not something I've
ever done. Would it matter much if I left out those spices?

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food
>>>> and
>>>> brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>>>> corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>>>> "corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>>>
>>> Yes they are, which is why I got terribly confused when I heard about
>>> people here making their corned beef I seem to remember asking where
>>> they got their corns of salt from.
>>
>> Am reading another food book now and it mentioned beef in brine. Does
>> not
>> say corned beef. And it also mentioned corned beef which seems to be
>> different.
>>
>> Here is a recipe for brined. There are others:
>>
>> http://www.sunprairiebeef.com/recipe...e-a-roast.html
>>
>> Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>>
>> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html
>
> Interesting Thanks I am interested in the brining. Not something
> I've ever done. Would it matter much if I left out those spices?

I've never brined anything. I did try looking it up and it looks to me like
brined beef refers to pastrami and the difference between that and corned
beef is that corned has pickling spices in it. If I'm wrong, I know someone
will correct me.

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food
>>>>> and
>>>>> brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>>>>> corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>>>>> "corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>>>>
>>>> Yes they are, which is why I got terribly confused when I heard about
>>>> people here making their corned beef I seem to remember asking where
>>>> they got their corns of salt from.
>>>
>>> Am reading another food book now and it mentioned beef in brine. Does
>>> not
>>> say corned beef. And it also mentioned corned beef which seems to be
>>> different.
>>>
>>> Here is a recipe for brined. There are others:
>>>
>>> http://www.sunprairiebeef.com/recipe...e-a-roast.html
>>>
>>> Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>>>
>>> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html
>>
>> Interesting Thanks I am interested in the brining. Not something
>> I've ever done. Would it matter much if I left out those spices?
>
> I've never brined anything. I did try looking it up and it looks to me
> like brined beef refers to pastrami and the difference between that and
> corned beef is that corned has pickling spices in it. If I'm wrong, I
> know someone will correct me.

Thanks

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 04:27:41 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:



>>>
>>> Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>>>
>>> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html
>>
>> Interesting Thanks I am interested in the brining. Not something
>> I've ever done. Would it matter much if I left out those spices?
>
>I've never brined anything. I did try looking it up and it looks to me like
>brined beef refers to pastrami and the difference between that and corned
>beef is that corned has pickling spices in it. If I'm wrong, I know someone
>will correct me.

Pastrami is corned beef taken another step, smoking.

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 04:27:41 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>> Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html
>>>
>>> Interesting Thanks I am interested in the brining. Not something
>>> I've ever done. Would it matter much if I left out those spices?
>>
>>I've never brined anything. I did try looking it up and it looks to me
>>like
>>brined beef refers to pastrami and the difference between that and corned
>>beef is that corned has pickling spices in it. If I'm wrong, I know
>>someone
>>will correct me.
>
> Pastrami is corned beef taken another step, smoking.

Ahh thanks, Ed I won't be doing that


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:26:04 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:



>
>Am reading another food book now and it mentioned beef in brine. Does not
>say corned beef. And it also mentioned corned beef which seems to be
>different.
>
>Here is a recipe for brined. There are others:
>
>http://www.sunprairiebeef.com/recipe...e-a-roast.html
>
>Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>
>http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html

Some terms are used interchangeably here. Context is important.

First, a brine is water and salt. Makes no difference what your
intended use, it is simply two basic ingredients, however, others may
be added.

Corned beef is cured. Usually, saltpeter is added to the brine. Many
meats were cured that way as a means of preserving them with no
refrigeration. The meat mentioned in the book in a brine certainly
was cured to last for the voyage.

In recent years, "brining" has become popular for cooks. Mostly done
with poultry, pork and now beef, it is just soaking the meat in a
brine solution so it takes on some water. This is NOT done to cure or
preserve, it is done to keep the meat from drying too much during the
cooking process.

Brine is used for wet curing meats. It is often injected to speed up
the process and make it more thorough. Dry curing is done by coating
the meat with a mix of the "cure", usually salt, sugar, perhaps other
spices.

Saltpeter is potassium nitrate. If is found under many names and
often in combination with nitrite, depending on use. Tenderquick,
pink salt, InstaCure. It is what gives ham and corned beef that pink
color.

We still "corn" beef even though the salt is no longer in "corns", but
is a finer grind. Some terms just never change linguistically even if
they do physically. Kosher salt or pickling salt is used for curing
because it does not have other additives and makes a clear brine.

Morton kosher salt has anti-caking additives, Diamond does not.
Neither has iodine.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 2014-02-16 6:37 PM, The Other Guy wrote:
>
> > When the ships made port as in NY, they would sell off the remaining
> > stocks cheap, often to immigrant Irish and Jews, where it became known
> > as their traditional food, which it certainly wasn't.
> >
> >
>
> That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
> keep it for the return voyage,

Because the return voyage was unlikely to be packed with passengers;
they'd be loading the holds to the gunnels with some other commodity to
trade in Europe.


Janet UK

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 02:26:04 -0800, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>Am reading another food book now and it mentioned beef in brine. Does not
>>say corned beef. And it also mentioned corned beef which seems to be
>>different.
>>
>>Here is a recipe for brined. There are others:
>>
>>http://www.sunprairiebeef.com/recipe...e-a-roast.html
>>
>>Here's one for corned. Slightly different recipe but uses kosher salt:
>>
>>http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/a...ef-recipe.html
>
> Some terms are used interchangeably here. Context is important.
>
> First, a brine is water and salt. Makes no difference what your
> intended use, it is simply two basic ingredients, however, others may
> be added.
>
> Corned beef is cured. Usually, saltpeter is added to the brine. Many
> meats were cured that way as a means of preserving them with no
> refrigeration. The meat mentioned in the book in a brine certainly
> was cured to last for the voyage.
>
> In recent years, "brining" has become popular for cooks. Mostly done
> with poultry, pork and now beef, it is just soaking the meat in a
> brine solution so it takes on some water. This is NOT done to cure or
> preserve, it is done to keep the meat from drying too much during the
> cooking process.
>
> Brine is used for wet curing meats. It is often injected to speed up
> the process and make it more thorough. Dry curing is done by coating
> the meat with a mix of the "cure", usually salt, sugar, perhaps other
> spices.
>
> Saltpeter is potassium nitrate. If is found under many names and
> often in combination with nitrite, depending on use. Tenderquick,
> pink salt, InstaCure. It is what gives ham and corned beef that pink
> color.
>
> We still "corn" beef even though the salt is no longer in "corns", but
> is a finer grind. Some terms just never change linguistically even if
> they do physically. Kosher salt or pickling salt is used for curing
> because it does not have other additives and makes a clear brine.
>
> Morton kosher salt has anti-caking additives, Diamond does not.
> Neither has iodine.

Excellent! Thanks, Ed

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 2/17/2014 8:11 AM, Janet wrote:
> In article >,

>> That leaves me wondering...... If it lasted so long, why would they not
>> keep it for the return voyage,
>
> Because the return voyage was unlikely to be packed with passengers;
> they'd be loading the holds to the gunnels with some other commodity to
> trade in Europe.
>
Yup.

"Julie Bove" wrote:
>"The Other Guy" wrote:
>>"Julie Bove" wrote:
>>
>>>Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
>>>brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>>>corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>>>"corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>>
>> Yes, that's what 'corned' meant. Today, pickling spice is added for
>> flavor. The brining was the preservative.
>
>But they mentioned two different meats. Brined and corned so they sounded
>in some way different.

Culinarilly corning and brining are very different; corning is a
*shelf life extender*, brining is a *flavor enhancer*... spices may be
introduced in either procedure... all meats can be corned or brined,
Gravlox is corned salmon, Sauerbraten is brined beef. The saline
injected meats at many markets are brined... brining does little to
nothing to extend shelf life. Corning is a form of pickling, brining
is a form of seasoning.

On Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:33:44 PM UTC-6, Julie Bove wrote:
>
> I highly recommend this book! Although the cover says it is an edible
>
> history of 5 immigrant families in one New York Tenement, it's not really
>
> that, IMO.
>
I do not think it's right to eat the immigrants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_Raoul

--B

"Brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
> "Julie Bove" wrote:
>>"The Other Guy" wrote:
>>>"Julie Bove" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Eventually they changed the law so that the ship had to provide food and
>>>>brined beef was mentioned but I think it is in some way different than
>>>>corned beef. They did mention the process of corning which involves
>>>>"corns" of salt. Sounded to me like large pellets of salt.
>>>
>>> Yes, that's what 'corned' meant. Today, pickling spice is added for
>>> flavor. The brining was the preservative.
>>
>>But they mentioned two different meats. Brined and corned so they sounded
>>in some way different.
>
> Culinarilly corning and brining are very different; corning is a
> *shelf life extender*, brining is a *flavor enhancer*... spices may be
> introduced in either procedure... all meats can be corned or brined,
> Gravlox is corned salmon, Sauerbraten is brined beef. The saline
> injected meats at many markets are brined... brining does little to
> nothing to extend shelf life. Corning is a form of pickling, brining
> is a form of seasoning.

Thanks!

"Bryan-TGWWW" > wrote in message
...
> On Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:33:44 PM UTC-6, Julie Bove wrote:
>>
>> I highly recommend this book! Although the cover says it is an edible
>>
>> history of 5 immigrant families in one New York Tenement, it's not really
>>
>> that, IMO.
>>
> I do not think it's right to eat the immigrants.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_Raoul
>
> --B

OMG!

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
Seems things were far worse in England for a time than they were
> here. It also mentions rationing and I think in that case, England was
> hit harder than we were as well. Forced to eat all sorts of things in
> dried, packet form as there was no alternative. But... Once the war was
> over, it said that those in England often seemed to forget what real food
> was like and continued eating the packet food long after it was necessary.

Not everyone. My grandparents and family grew their own vegetables and
although other things were scarce, we always had fresh food on the table.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
Seems things were far worse in England for a time than they were
> here. It also mentions rationing and I think in that case, England was
> hit harder than we were as well. Forced to eat all sorts of things in
> dried, packet form as there was no alternative. But... Once the war was
> over, it said that those in England often seemed to forget what real food
> was like and continued eating the packet food long after it was necessary.

Not everyone. My grandparents and family grew their own vegetables and
although other things were scarce, we always had fresh food on the table.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 2/18/2014 12:39 PM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
> Seems things were far worse in England for a time than they were
>> here. It also mentions rationing and I think in that case, England
>> was hit harder than we were as well. Forced to eat all sorts of
>> things in dried, packet form as there was no alternative. But...
>> Once the war was over, it said that those in England often seemed to
>> forget what real food was like and continued eating the packet food
>> long after it was necessary.
>
> Not everyone. My grandparents and family grew their own vegetables and
> although other things were scarce, we always had fresh food on the table.
>
Granpa had an allotment, raised rabbits, fished, and from time to time,
there was venison. Granny was an amazing cook.
And what many people forget (or never knew) is that rationing didn't
stop at the end of the war, it continued into the 50s.

"S Viemeister" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/18/2014 12:39 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> Seems things were far worse in England for a time than they were
>>> here. It also mentions rationing and I think in that case, England
>>> was hit harder than we were as well. Forced to eat all sorts of
>>> things in dried, packet form as there was no alternative. But...
>>> Once the war was over, it said that those in England often seemed to
>>> forget what real food was like and continued eating the packet food
>>> long after it was necessary.
>>
>> Not everyone. My grandparents and family grew their own vegetables and
>> although other things were scarce, we always had fresh food on the table.
>>
> Granpa had an allotment, raised rabbits, fished, and from time to time,
> there was venison. Granny was an amazing cook.
> And what many people forget (or never knew) is that rationing didn't stop
> at the end of the war, it continued into the 50s.

It did indeed. We were very lucky to have had the grandparents we had eh?
Mine had an allotment too as well as his garden. He used to take me when I
was very small and I used to to help him pick out the best veg for dinner

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

In article >, says...


> It also mentions rationing and I think in that case, England was hit
> harder than we were as well.

You mean Britain, not just England, and food rationing was FAR more
severe in Britain than in the USA. Most of your food rationing lasted
only 2 or 3 years. Ours lasted 14 and was far stricter.

You can see the UK rations here

http://resources.woodlands-
junior.kent.sch.uk/homework/war/rationing2.html

> Forced to eat all sorts of things in dried,
> packet form as there was no alternative.

That applied to eggs, but little else.


But... Once the war was over, it
> said that those in England often seemed to forget what real food was like
> and continued eating the packet food long after it was necessary.

That's just nonsense. Convenience/packeted food barely existed then.
Food rationing in Britain didn't end until until 1954.


Janet UK

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
> Seems things were far worse in England for a time than they were
>> here. It also mentions rationing and I think in that case, England was
>> hit harder than we were as well. Forced to eat all sorts of things in
>> dried, packet form as there was no alternative. But... Once the war was
>> over, it said that those in England often seemed to forget what real food
>> was like and continued eating the packet food long after it was
>> necessary.
>
> Not everyone. My grandparents and family grew their own vegetables and
> although other things were scarce, we always had fresh food on the table.

My family too but others were not so lucky.

On Sunday, February 16, 2014 5:33:44 PM UTC-5, Julie Bove wrote:
> I highly recommend this book!

I don't know if you've read it. It's a novel. However Upton Sinclair did research into the subject before writing/publishing this novel. It's about the meat packing industry in Chicago, and immigrants who were drawn to the industry in the early 1900's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

Many of my ancestors found work in the US in the 1800's. They never worked meat packing. But they were treated OK, and made enough money to return to Hungary and purchase more land.