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General Cooking (rec.food.cooking) For general food and cooking discussion. Foods of all kinds, food procurement, cooking methods and techniques, eating, etc.

Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 12:08 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 36
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

I'm making yogurt, and unfortunately, although I had a timer going
so I would remember to check the temperature of the milk as it was
heating, I overestimated the amount of time it would take for it to
heat to the proper temperature (I usually heat it to the 180-190F range).
By the time the timer went off, the milk was about 210 degrees and
was foaming. (This has never happened to me before, btw.)

Have I ruined it? Can I still make yogurt from it? All recipes say
not to let the milk boil, but they don't say why, so I don't know what
problems that might cause. If it might just have an odd texture or
something like that, I'm going to try it anyway. But if it's impossible
to grow the culture in milk that has been boiled, then I guess I'll
have to throw this batch out (what a waste - half a gallon of organic
milk, not cheap).

Of course, I'm going to let it cool down to 100F before mixing in the
starter. I just want to know whether I should scrap this and start over.
And if so, why (ie, what would go wrong if I continued?).

Thanks,
Joyce

--
Fluffy Mackerel Pudding - "Once upon a time, the world was young and the
words 'mackerel' and 'pudding' existed far, far away from one another. One
day, that all changed. And then, whoever was responsible somehow thought
the word 'fluffy' would help." -- Hilarious recipes at: www.candyboots.com
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 01:04 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 5,117
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

On Jun 11, 6:37*pm, Kalmia wrote:
On Jun 11, 7:08*pm, wrote:









I'm making yogurt, and unfortunately, although I had a timer going
so I would remember to check the temperature of the milk as it was
heating, I overestimated the amount of time it would take for it to
heat to the proper temperature (I usually heat it to the 180-190F range).
By the time the timer went off, the milk was about 210 degrees and
was foaming. (This has never happened to me before, btw.)


Have I ruined it? Can I still make yogurt from it? All recipes say
not to let the milk boil, but they don't say why, so I don't know what
problems that might cause. If it might just have an odd texture or
something like that, I'm going to try it anyway. But if it's impossible
to grow the culture in milk that has been boiled, then I guess I'll
have to throw this batch out (what a waste - half a gallon of organic
milk, not cheap).


Of course, I'm going to let it cool down to 100F before mixing in the
starter. I just want to know whether I should scrap this and start over..
And if so, why (ie, what would go wrong if I continued?).


Thanks,
Joyce


--
Fluffy Mackerel Pudding - "Once upon a time, the world was young and the
words 'mackerel' and 'pudding' existed far, far away from one another. One
day, that all changed. And then, whoever was responsible somehow thought
the word 'fluffy' would help." *-- Hilarious recipes at:www.candyboots.com


I bought a copy of her book. It's great.

This happened to me years ago and don't remember the outcome. * To be
safe, start over and be sure to set the timer correctly. *As to the
flop milk, I'd use it to make a cake, waffles, etc.


I assume that it just wouldn't taste as good as yogurt, but you're
right about waffles. Cake, I don't know. Those puppies are picky and
some of the milk proteins were probably lost to the "skin."

--Bryan
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 01:38 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 2,153
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

On Jun 11, 7:08*pm, wrote:

I'm making yogurt, and unfortunately, although I had a timer going
so I would remember to check the temperature of the milk as it was
heating, I overestimated the amount of time it would take for it to
heat to the proper temperature (I usually heat it to the 180-190F range).
By the time the timer went off, the milk was about 210 degrees and
was foaming. (This has never happened to me before, btw.)




When I was a kid yogurt was made fresh in my grandparents house
and was always in a huge bowl in the fridge. I made it a few times
myself. My grandfather used the old-world method of heating the milk
to a point where he could stick a finger, can't recall which one, into
the heated milk and count to ten. If it was hot to the point where
he'd almost have to pull out his finger, he knew it was ready. Of
course the thermometer is probably better, but there were few failed
attempts using my grandfather's method. Later though, like 30 to 40
years later, many of my relatives on the arab side no longer make
their own yogurt, not just for convenience, but because of too many
failed attempts. Some suspect it's milk itself that has changed.
They could be right as even my aunt who was very good at making yogurt
failed a few times in my presence, and I tried it once and failed as
well. I have no advice for you on this as I really don't know, except
that for reasons unnknown to me they suggest never allowing the milk
to boil. I suppose early on there was a lot of trial and error using
the finger in the milk method. But over time I'm sure one who made
yogurt enough would come to know that feeling by heart. There is, as
you probably already know, a real difference between the taste and
texture of store bought yogurt and the fresh stuff. It's an
interesting thing, how a tablespoon or so of yogurt from the old
supply is used to make a new batch, almost as if you're making new
food out of something thousands of years old.

TJ
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 06:38 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 4,620
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

i have no idea, but if you determine its not good for yogurt, make some
pancake batter with it and freese the cakes, or use in some other baking, a
half gallon seems alot to use,

Lee
wrote in message
...
I'm making yogurt, and unfortunately, although I had a timer going
so I would remember to check the temperature of the milk as it was
heating, I overestimated the amount of time it would take for it to
heat to the proper temperature (I usually heat it to the 180-190F range).
By the time the timer went off, the milk was about 210 degrees and
was foaming. (This has never happened to me before, btw.)

Have I ruined it? Can I still make yogurt from it? All recipes say
not to let the milk boil, but they don't say why, so I don't know what
problems that might cause. If it might just have an odd texture or
something like that, I'm going to try it anyway. But if it's impossible
to grow the culture in milk that has been boiled, then I guess I'll
have to throw this batch out (what a waste - half a gallon of organic
milk, not cheap).

Of course, I'm going to let it cool down to 100F before mixing in the
starter. I just want to know whether I should scrap this and start over.
And if so, why (ie, what would go wrong if I continued?).

Thanks,
Joyce

--
Fluffy Mackerel Pudding - "Once upon a time, the world was young and the
words 'mackerel' and 'pudding' existed far, far away from one another. One
day, that all changed. And then, whoever was responsible somehow thought
the word 'fluffy' would help." -- Hilarious recipes at:
www.candyboots.com



  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 07:58 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 36
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

Tommy Joe wrote:

When I was a kid yogurt was made fresh in my grandparents house
and was always in a huge bowl in the fridge. I made it a few times
myself. My grandfather used the old-world method of heating the milk
to a point where he could stick a finger, can't recall which one, into
the heated milk and count to ten. If it was hot to the point where
he'd almost have to pull out his finger, he knew it was ready. Of
course the thermometer is probably better, but there were few failed
attempts using my grandfather's method. Later though, like 30 to 40
years later, many of my relatives on the arab side no longer make
their own yogurt, not just for convenience, but because of too many
failed attempts.


What do you mean by "failed"? That it was still milk hours later; ie,
the culture failed to do the fermentation? Or that the taste/texture
wasn't good?

I googled about this (should've done that to begin with, but I like to
converse back and forth, ask questions, etc ), and all the sites I saw
said that it's not *necessary* to boil the milk, which is different from
saying that you shouldn't. The worst problem I read about that resulted
from the milk boiling was that it would boil over and make a big mess.
(In my kitchen, you wouldn't even notice that. )

I've been making yogurt for over a year, and I make it every week, and
so far, I've had few failures of any type. In the beginning it was turning
out kind of grainy, but I figured out how to avoid that. (Heh, it involved
not bringing it to a too-high temperature - so this batch might turn out
pretty grainy.)

Anyway, in the future, I'm going to be more watchful of the heating. This
milk went from about 50F to 210 in maybe 15-20 minutes. I didn't think
I had the heat on so high. It's a gas stove, so there's no "high", "med"
"low" temp. gradations, but the flame looked medium-ish.

It's an
interesting thing, how a tablespoon or so of yogurt from the old
supply is used to make a new batch, almost as if you're making new
food out of something thousands of years old.


Well, I think the longest run I've had with starter is maybe 20 generations
(remember, I make it weekly), so maybe not quite *thousands* of years.
Usually the only reason I buy new starter is because I run out of yogurt
before I have time to make more, and I end up eating the next batch's
starter. (I've probably gone overboard and used a lot more than a tablespoon
to provide the culture.)

Thanks for the story.

Joyce
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:34 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 2,153
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

On Jun 11, 10:11*pm, Ranée at Arabian Knits
wrote:

Later though, like 30 to 40
years later, many of my relatives on the arab side no longer make
their own yogurt, not just for convenience, but because of too many
failed attempts. *Some suspect it's milk itself that has changed.
They could be right as even my aunt who was very good at making yogurt
failed a few times in my presence, and I tried it once and failed as
well.



* *I've had pasteurized milk fail. *I've never had raw milk fail.



I don't know for sure the main reason, but the milk my
grandparents and their generation used for making yogurt was always
pasteurized, yet it wasn't until years later that the failures either
began or became more frequent. I'll admit it's possible the ease of
buying yogurt already made may have had something to do with it - but
if I am to take the word of my relatives, it's something in the milk
that wasn't there decades ago. But I really don't know. I made
yogurt a few times in my 20s and it always turned out ok. Later in my
40s when I returned to PA my relatives were almost all using
commercial yogurt. They claimed it was because of too many failures.
My aunt, who has made yogurt many many times, tried along with me to
make it several times using the same methods we'd used in the past,
and failed like 3 separate times. But I am not arguing the issue,
because to be honest I really don't know the cause, if indeed there is
one. Kind of interesting though.

TJ
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:44 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 2,153
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

On Jun 12, 2:58*am, wrote:

What do you mean by "failed"? That it was still milk hours later; ie,
the culture failed to do the fermentation? Or that the taste/texture
wasn't good?


Well, I think the longest run I've had with starter is maybe 20 generations
(remember, I make it weekly), so maybe not quite *thousands* of years.
Usually the only reason I buy new starter is because I run out of yogurt
before I have time to make more, and I end up eating the next batch's
starter. (I've probably gone overboard and used a lot more than a tablespoon
to provide the culture.)



I meant that it didn't take, it would congeal, it was like milk,
maybe a bit thicker, but certainly nowhere near yogurt consistency. I
don't claim to know much about the topic, only that as a kid in my
arab grandparents home, yogurt was a staple and was always home-made.
Very good too. They never used the starter, always a tablespoon or so
from the latest batch. Years later I read about making yogurt and it
was stressed not to put too much culture in the new batch as the
bacteria attack and kill each other, or some such thing. That too was
interesting. My experience with making yogurt is limited to a few
experiences with my grandparents and a few times on my own when I
lived in L.A. - all successful.

I wasn't referring to your batch specifically, just the idea of
some small bit of history being in each new batch created from a
previous one. It's almost like re-incarnation. I wonder how the
first batch of yogurt ever came to be. I suppose that maybe some milk
was left in the sun for some time, then hurried into the shade at just
the right temperature and it turned into some kind of milk pudding. I
look at yogurt and see a microcosm for life in general, how all living
things on earth can live only within certain limits of temperature
going high and going low. Just like with yogurt, the temperature had
to be just right to allow some kind of creation to take place. Which
is not to say that a rock can't be alive and we just can't see it.
But now I'm going off topic again, so I will end it here. Thanks for
you response and sorry I don't know more about the topic regarding how
boiling the milk might affect the yogurt.

TJ
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 13-06-2011, 12:36 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 36
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

Tommy Joe wrote:

I meant that it didn't take, it would congeal, it was like milk,
maybe a bit thicker, but certainly nowhere near yogurt consistency. I
don't claim to know much about the topic, only that as a kid in my
arab grandparents home, yogurt was a staple and was always home-made.
Very good too. They never used the starter, always a tablespoon or so
from the latest batch.


Oh, I meant the same thing - I use some of the yogurt from the previous
batch to culture the next one. That's what I'm calling "starter", but
it's not a commercial yogurt starter. So I know what you mean about the
continuation of the bacteria over generations, giving you a sense of
connection with history, although in my case the history goes back a
couple of months at most.

Years later I read about making yogurt and it
was stressed not to put too much culture in the new batch as the
bacteria attack and kill each other, or some such thing. That too was
interesting.


That is interesting. I'm going to try that next time, to see if it makes
any difference.

previous one. It's almost like re-incarnation. I wonder how the
first batch of yogurt ever came to be. I suppose that maybe some milk
was left in the sun for some time, then hurried into the shade at just
the right temperature and it turned into some kind of milk pudding.


I always wonder how prepared food we now eat regularly was figured out
at the beginning. I guess most recipess started out very simple and evolved
more and more complexity as people added their own creativity.

Thanks for
you response and sorry I don't know more about the topic regarding how
boiling the milk might affect the yogurt.


No problem! I'm going to find out soon.

Joyce
--
I prefer to live with Feline Sapiens, thank you very much.
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2011, 03:44 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 2,153
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

On Jun 12, 7:36*pm, wrote:

I always wonder how prepared food we now eat regularly was figured out
at the beginning. I guess most recipess started out very simple and evolved
more and more complexity as people added their own creativity.

* Thanks for
* you response and sorry I don't know more about the topic regarding how
* boiling the milk might affect the yogurt.

No problem! I'm going to find out soon.



Thanks for participating in this interesting conversation. I know
nothing more about it, but I want to quickly tell you my grandfathers
method. I think I already told you how he judged the temperature by
putting his finger in the heating milk and counted to ten. But after
he stirred in the starter, not much stirring either (I've read that
can ruin it too), he would put the lid back on the container and cover
it with a towel and put in a dark corner of the room. Not saying this
is the right way to do it, only that it was the way he learned it and
did it, and back then I was not aware of any failures - which is not
to say that some may not have occurred and I just wasn't around or
aware that it happened. But it is interesting how certain dishes come
to be. One that intrigues me is hummous, also a staple in my
grandparents home. It's just garbonzo beans mixted with sesame paste,
with garlic and lemon and salt tossed in. Funny thing is, I don't
like garbonzo beans, but I love hummous. Sesame paste is used on it's
own with just lemon to create arabic tartar sauce for fish and other
things. I suppose hummous came to be when someone had sesame paste
(tahini) on their plate with garbonzo beans and got them together and
went, "Wow, this aint bad." I suppose a lot of recipes were created
that way, by mistake to start.

TJ

TJ
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 14-06-2011, 04:56 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 36
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

Tommy Joe wrote:

Thanks for participating in this interesting conversation. I know
nothing more about it, but I want to quickly tell you my grandfathers
method. I think I already told you how he judged the temperature by
putting his finger in the heating milk and counted to ten.


By the way, the boiled-milk yogurt turned out fine. I had some this
morning. Not grainy at all.

Joyce

--
"Bacteria, with a few more bells and whistles."
-- Bonnie Bassler, describing human beings
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 15-06-2011, 07:21 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 2,153
Default Yogurt-making - milk boiled accidentally

On Jun 13, 11:56*pm, wrote:


* * Thanks for participating in this interesting conversation. *I know
* nothing more about it, but I want to quickly tell you my grandfathers
* method. *I think I already told you how he judged the temperature by
* putting his finger in the heating milk and counted to ten.



By the way, the boiled-milk yogurt turned out fine. I had some this
morning. Not grainy at all.



I occasionally make hard boiled eggs. I bring them to a boil,
then remove them from the heat and let them sit for 20 minutes with a
lid on. But yesterday I made the eggs and put the time on 5 minutes
to alert me when they were about to come to a boil. But I got
involved in something else, and those eggs boiled till the water was
nearly gone. I thought they'd be junk, but I put them in cold water
and they seem alright to me. Must be hard to ruin a hard boiled egg.
One more thing about eggs, not that I know a lot about eggs or food in
general - but I read a year or so ago that the eggs that are easiest
to peel are older eggs. And it's true. If you make hard-boiled eggs
and have had a problem peeling them, get ones that are very close to
the date of expiration.

I have not had homemade yogurt in years. I remember the texture
of what my grandparents and other relatives made (I made it a few
times too), as being very smooth and light yet with a hearty feel.
Hard to put into words, definitely a difference though between the
homemade and the store bought. Yeah, I have heard not to bring it to
a boil, but was never sure if that meant it was ruined or not. From
your experience I'm assuming it doesn't destroy it, just makes you
wait longer for the batch to come down to the proper temperature
before putting in the starter, right? Interesting. Maybe boiling a
huge batch of milk for hours would produce a new and unique flavored
yogurt no one's ever encountered before. People will be sampling it
and asking how you made such great yogurt, the best they've ever had -
and you say it's a secret. Then later when you appear on tv as a
guest on a show on the food channel you reveal at last the secret,
that the milk MUST be boiled for two hours, no less. Of course some
milk is lost to evaporation, so you will need to start with more milk
than the recipe calls for. Anyway, I think it's great that it turned
out ok, but even greater that it may debunk a long held belief. I
like when that happens.

TJ
 




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