Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are healthier
and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into consideration all
the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

Polly Esther wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for
> a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the
> claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
> great-grandmother Polly


"Organic" doesn't mean anything because it's not well defined. It means
whatever the person making the claim imagines it to be. Tell me
specifically what's so good about your product. No growth hormones? No
pesticides? I might pay extra for that. (A little extra.)

-Bob

"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...
> Polly Esther wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
>> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
>> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the
>> claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
>> great-grandmother Polly
>
>
> "Organic" doesn't mean anything because it's not well defined. It means
> whatever the person making the claim imagines it to be. Tell me
> specifically what's so good about your product. No growth hormones? No
> pesticides? I might pay extra for that. (A little extra.)
>
> -Bob
I guess I raised the question because I assumed (yes, I've heard) that it
meant no triple 13 fertilizer and no deadly to life bug killer.
But. Still. I'm just not so sure organic is safe or superior or
anything. If the gov't is inspecting, what does that assure us? Polly

Polly Esther wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope
> for a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who
> knows what, the claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try
> to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

Of course they are healthier than eating stuff with insecticides on/in it.

Organic food must be free of chemicals and hormones.

Polly wrote:

> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim
> 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
> great-grandmother Polly

In California, the term "organic" is pretty strictly defined and labeling
laws are strictly enforced. I gather that's not the case everywhere;
specifically, it's been stated that "organic" means exactly nothing in
upstate New York.

I do prefer California organic produce because all other things being equal
(e.g., comparing a flat of ripe organic strawberries to a flat of
equally-ripe "conventional" strawberries) the organic stuff tastes better to
me.

Others have stated that they can't tell the difference in taste, so those
people might as well not pay the premium for organic.

Bob

"Julie Bove" > wrote:
> Polly Esther wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope
>> for a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
>> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who
>> knows what, the claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try
>> to be nice. great-grandmother Polly
>
> Of course they are healthier than eating stuff with insecticides on/in it.
>
> Organic food must be free of chemicals and hormones.

Hmm... So they engineer the produce with high levels of "natural"
pesticides embedded into the plant itself. Now try and find the words
"organic" and "heirloom" together and maybe you will have something
healthy.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 23:39:30 -0500, "Polly Esther"
> wrote:

>Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are healthier
>and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
>civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into consideration all
>the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
>become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly


Obviously "organic" does not necessarily mean safe. The sprouts from
the organic farm have not been determined to be the cause of the
outbreak of E Coli in Europe.

This was announced on Friday, not old news.

To be certified "Organic" costs a lot of money that small farmers
cannot afford.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

Polly Esther wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope
> for a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking
> into consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who
> knows what, the claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and
> try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

I confess to confusion on this subject. TJ's sell organic and 'regular'
half-and-half. I often find myself buying one this week and the other
next week, although lately I've been pretty much sticking with the
organic.

Folks here talk about trusted sources for food - insofar as one can
trust a grocery chain, my confidence is pretty high in TJ's, likewise in
Whole Foods. My food choices are more about shopping at those two
stores and not the local mega-mart, and not so much about the
particulars of what they sell.

Yes, I prefer organic foods.

-S-

On Jun 10, 12:39*am, "Polly Esther" > wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? *Do you assume that they are healthier
> and are you sure? *It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
> civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. *Taking into consideration all
> the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
> become obscure. *Your opinion? *and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

I don't buy organic. I don't know how much healthier organic food is,
and if it is truly organic.

On 6/10/2011 8:25 AM, Steve Freides wrote:
> Polly Esther wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope
>> for a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking
>> into consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who
>> knows what, the claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and
>> try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly
>
> I confess to confusion on this subject. TJ's sell organic and 'regular'
> half-and-half. I often find myself buying one this week and the other
> next week, although lately I've been pretty much sticking with the
> organic.
>
> Folks here talk about trusted sources for food - insofar as one can
> trust a grocery chain, my confidence is pretty high in TJ's, likewise in
> Whole Foods. My food choices are more about shopping at those two
> stores and not the local mega-mart, and not so much about the
> particulars of what they sell.
>
> Yes, I prefer organic foods.

It's organic bean sprouts again in Germany as of this morning!

--


James Silverton, Potomac

I'm *not*

On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 23:39:30 -0500, "Polly Esther"
> wrote:

>Do you prefer organic foods and why?


There's no such thing as organic, so long as there's gravity and
weather everything on this planet is connected... there's as much
chance of having organic foods as there is of non contagious
illnesses. And anyone who buys foods labeled organic who thinks the
double priced veggies in the market are any different from the rest is
an idiot with more dollars than brain cells... I got yer organic
banana, schwingin'!

On Jun 10, 12:39*am, "Polly Esther" > wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? *Do you assume that they are healthier
> and are you sure? *It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
> civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. *Taking into consideration all
> the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
> become obscure. *Your opinion? *and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

It depends on what kind of "organic" you mean. Diesel fuel and
synthetic hormones are organic, as are most pesticides. That's
chemistry, and most of us don't mean that when talking about food.

Vegetables grown in manure-fertilized soil taste better than those
grown with modern agricultural practices. My neighbor's tomatoes taste
far better than any from the a supermarket. The farmstands around here
that have the best tasting produce use little or no inorganic
fertilizer and deal with weeds by hoeing or with black plastic
sheeting. Some of their tomatoes are as good as my neighbor's.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

On 6/10/2011 9:38 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> On Jun 10, 12:39 am, "Polly > wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are healthier
>> and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
>> civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into consideration all
>> the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
>> become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly
>
> It depends on what kind of "organic" you mean. Diesel fuel and
> synthetic hormones are organic, as are most pesticides. That's
> chemistry, and most of us don't mean that when talking about food.
>
> Vegetables grown in manure-fertilized soil taste better than those
> grown with modern agricultural practices. My neighbor's tomatoes taste
> far better than any from the a supermarket. The farmstands around here
> that have the best tasting produce use little or no inorganic
> fertilizer and deal with weeds by hoeing or with black plastic
> sheeting. Some of their tomatoes are as good as my neighbor's.
>
I was given a free sample of some organic vegetables and expressed my
thanks but said that "grown in manure-fertilized soil" disquieted me.
The young lady shook her head saying, "You know, I never thought of it
that way."

--


James Silverton, Potomac

I'm *not*

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:44:01 -0400, James Silverton
> wrote:

snip
>>
>I was given a free sample of some organic vegetables and expressed my
>thanks but said that "grown in manure-fertilized soil" disquieted me.
>The young lady shook her head saying, "You know, I never thought of it
>that way."
Pigs, chickens et. al. are grown that way too. )
Blood meal and bone meal are part of many different fertilizers that
are not organic.
The fertilizer used for organics may have nothing to do with animal
poop. It could be all composted vegetable matter.
Janet US

"Nad R" > wrote in message
...
> "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>> Polly Esther wrote:
>>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope
>>> for a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking
>>> into
>>> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who
>>> knows what, the claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and
>>> try
>>> to be nice. great-grandmother Polly
>>
>> Of course they are healthier than eating stuff with insecticides on/in
>> it.
>>
>> Organic food must be free of chemicals and hormones.
>
> Hmm... So they engineer the produce with high levels of "natural"
> pesticides embedded into the plant itself. Now try and find the words
> "organic" and "heirloom" together and maybe you will have something
> healthy.

No. In fact organic produce is prone to getting bug eaten. And it usually
isn't as pretty as non-organic.

On Jun 9, 9:39*pm, "Polly Esther" > wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? *Do you assume that they are healthier
> and are you sure? *It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
> civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. *Taking into consideration all
> the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
> become obscure. *Your opinion? *and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

I prefer organic for vegetables that I don't peel.
If the fruit or vegetable has an inedible peel, I don't sweat it so
much, it depends on the price.

I prefer organic methods of farming simply because it puts less
pesticide and chemicals into the
ecology. Our water is polluted enough as it is without adding more
pesticides and chemicals as run off into the ground water.

On 2011-06-10, Polly Esther > wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are healthier
> and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a polite and
> civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into consideration all
> the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim 'organic' has
> become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly

I hadda reload yer post, thinking it some sorta troll. NOT.

Not an organic zealot, but do recognize some. Jes tried to buy some
organic flat-leaf parsely, but the store was out. No doubt other
shoppers had discovered the superior quality of the ogo parsely. I
ended up buying curly parsely cuz the non-ogo flat-leaf was tasteless
and I didn't care about appearance, as it was gonna be hosed inna FP.

As fer the industry, Whole Foods leads the charge fer destroying the
concept of what "organic" is. They, and others, are actually lobbying
congress ....the whore branch of govt.... to redefine "organic" to
what is most advantageous (read profitable) to agribiz.

nb

On 2011-06-10, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

> There's no such thing as organic, so long as there's gravity and
> weather......

......there will be you, ****ing in everyone's cornflakes.


Some ppl try to grow a better product. Some ppl actually do. Yeah,
yeah, we know the world is circling the drain, but let's enjoy it
while we can. While most organic products are a scam, a few are
actually better. Like everything else, be a smart shopper. Good
cooks buy good ingredients. What is labeled as organic is sometimes
better and worth the extra cost, like anything else. Screw the
label/price.

nb

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:06:29 -0600, "gloria.p" >
wrote:

>On 6/9/2011 10:39 PM, Polly Esther wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
>> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
>> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the
>> claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
>> great-grandmother Polly
>
>
>
>Have you read "The Omnivore's Dilemma"? Everyone who enjoys
>cooking/eating should read it for the content and Pollan's very
>honest personal opinion summary.

Netflix has Food,inc. and a few other food documentaries that can make
the learning process shorter. I've read the books but the movies were
good too.

Lou

On Jun 10, 9:30*am, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:


> There's no such thing as organic, so long as there's gravity and
> weather everything on this planet is connected...

A flat statement like that needs justifying. Surely you don't mean
that all foods are inorganic.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

On Jun 10, 10:32*am, James Silverton >
wrote:

> ... I favor a complete ban on using
> antibiotics from human medicine in raising animals. That's a short
> sighted policy that eventually leads to drug-resistant bacteria.

You wrote that a ban would be shortsighted. I don't think you meant
that.

I don't favor an outright ban. Antibiotics should not be allowed
preventively as a substitute for good sanitation, or to promote rapid
growth. I think they should be allowed for curing illness in
individual animals when prescribed by a veterinarian, just as
physicians prescribe them for humans.

> However, I have never felt that "organic" food tasted or looked better,
> especially the latter,\.

Some organic foods look a bit worse. Alar was onc used on apples to
make them look better. It's banned now. Some organic vegetables and
fruits taste noticeably better to me when they're fresh. Long storage
isn't good for flavor.

Measurable amounts of herbicide are absorbed into the husks of grains
such as rice. I buy only organic brown rice, but I buy any kind of
white rice.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

James Silverton wrote:
> On 6/10/2011 8:25 AM, Steve Freides wrote:
>> Polly Esther wrote:
>>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope
>>> for a polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot.
>>> Taking into consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who
>>> knows what, the claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion?
>>> and try to be nice. great-grandmother Polly
>>
>> I confess to confusion on this subject. TJ's sell organic and
>> 'regular' half-and-half. I often find myself buying one this week
>> and the other next week, although lately I've been pretty much
>> sticking with the organic.
>>
>> Folks here talk about trusted sources for food - insofar as one can
>> trust a grocery chain, my confidence is pretty high in TJ's,
>> likewise in Whole Foods. My food choices are more about shopping at
>> those two stores and not the local mega-mart, and not so much about
>> the particulars of what they sell.
>>
>> Yes, I prefer organic foods.
>
> It's organic bean sprouts again in Germany as of this morning!

Sounds like they're never going to get to the bottom of that mess.

-S-

Marcella wrote:

> My opinion is that a lot of the chemical fertilizers used can be quite
> dangerous to farm workers, the soil and our water supply.

....to say nothing of the effects of run-off into the Gulf of Mexico, whose
"dead zone" grows larger every year because of it.

Bob

i prefer specific "organic" foods based soley on taste. i am not convinced
they have any health benifits at all, i am not even convinced that "organic"
means anything specific jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but when it comes to
tomatoes and oranges they seem to be better tasting.

having a father with decades in the cattle industry, i know for a fact that
things certified "antibiotic free" may or may not be, and things listed as
"grassfed" only have to be fed that way up to a certian percentage... so
again, its soley a matter of taste for me.

in the case of costco, the tomatoes and some of the other tree type fruits
listed as organic do to me taste better,

Lee
"Polly Esther" > wrote in message
...
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the claim
> 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
> great-grandmother Polly

On 10/06/2011 12:39 AM, Polly Esther wrote:
> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the
> claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
> great-grandmother Polly

I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
there is an increased risk of e-coli.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
snip
>
>I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
>labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
>believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
>organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
>there is an increased risk of e-coli.

I hadn't heard of the situation that you describe with manure. Could
you please refer me to a specific case or cite?
Thanks
Janet US

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 10/06/2011 12:39 AM, Polly Esther wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
>> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
>> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the
>> claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
>> great-grandmother Polly
>
>I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
>labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
>believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
>organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
>there is an increased risk of e-coli.

Yeah, but... it's organic e-coli. <g>

Just lookit all the flooding and severe weather... WTF is there any
"organic" farm land... there ain't, just doesn't exist.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 10/06/2011 12:39 AM, Polly Esther wrote:
>> Do you prefer organic foods and why? Do you assume that they are
>> healthier and are you sure? It is probably naive that I could hope for a
>> polite and civil discussion but maybe it's worth a shot. Taking into
>> consideration all the chemicals and hormones and who knows what, the
>> claim 'organic' has become obscure. Your opinion? and try to be nice.
>> great-grandmother Polly
>
>I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
>labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
>believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
>organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
>there is an increased risk of e-coli.

Yeah, those sprouts were marketed as organic.

Better than 99.9% of farm land is bottom land... last time I checked
shit runs down hill... there is no such thing as organic farming. Even
hydroponic uses ordinary seed, ordinary water, and ordinary air.
Organic is just a marketing ploy for separating the pinheads from
their dollars.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 10:38:39 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
snip
>
>Yeah, those sprouts were marketed as organic.
snip

The troubling part is that they don't know where the sprouts became
contaminated. The stories I have read have said that the particular
farm shows no current evidence of contamination. I'm not disputing
the conclusion. I'm just wondering how/where it happened. I'm sure
that the trucks and so forth that do the hauling etc. have been
checked. You would think that the bacteria would still be in
evidence somewhere.
Janet US

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 07:51:44 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>snip
>>
>>I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
>>labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
>>believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
>>organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
>>there is an increased risk of e-coli.
>
>I hadn't heard of the situation that you describe with manure. Could
>you please refer me to a specific case or cite?
>Thanks
>Janet US

You are right to be skeptical of that claim, Janet.

There are guidelines for organic farmers to use when applying manure
to crops. There is no reason to believe or any evidence that I can
find that organic farmers are any more or less likely than regular
farmers to follow safety guidelines in their ag practices.

I am sure there are cases of wrong-doers or mistake makers on both
sides of the fence, but I do not think there is any reason to single
out organic farmers or blame them more for e.coli outbreaks, Germany
notwithstanding, as that is a very special case involving a highly
virulent strain. And we do not even have all the details of it yet.

I grow most of my veggies organically, and though I do not sell
anything, I'd not be able to get any certification as I am known to
use systemics or sprays on my roses. They are nowhere near the veggies
or in separate tubs, but I am sure some rules are being broken.

Oh, and I have been known in some circumstance to use Miracle Gro on a
thing or two, if I don't have enough compost to go around.

Janet....do you know anything about leeks? I left a dozen in the
ground over the winter and they are about to bloom, damn near 3 feet
tall. Should I just let them go? Can they be pulled and eaten? Should
I go google some info?

Boron

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 08:45:13 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 10:38:39 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>snip
>>
>>Yeah, those sprouts were marketed as organic.
>snip
>
>The troubling part is that they don't know where the sprouts became
>contaminated. The stories I have read have said that the particular
>farm shows no current evidence of contamination. I'm not disputing
>the conclusion. I'm just wondering how/where it happened. I'm sure
>that the trucks and so forth that do the hauling etc. have been
>checked. You would think that the bacteria would still be in
>evidence somewhere.
>Janet US

Sprouts are particularly susceptible to bacterial contamination. See
the article quote below.

Boron

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...e-coli-germany

Raw bean sprouts may be renowned as the health obsessive's foodstuff
of choice, but according to the UK's leading expert on E coli their
susceptibility to bacteria means they should be viewed in much the
same way as uncooked oysters.

The problem comes during the sprouting process, according to Hugh
Pennington, emeritus professor of bacteriology at the University of
Aberdeen, who led inquiries into two E coli outbreaks, including one
in Scotland in 1996 that killed 21 people.

"When you germinate them, you put them into warm water – it's ideal
conditions for the bacteria to grow," he said. "They've done
experimental studies on contaminating bean sprouts and seeing what
happens to the bacteria during the sprouting process, and you can get
up to a million-fold increase in the number of bacteria. It's like
incubating a culture of bacteria."

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 11:14:50 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 07:51:44 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>>snip
>>>
>>>I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
>>>labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
>>>believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
>>>organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
>>>there is an increased risk of e-coli.
>>
>>I hadn't heard of the situation that you describe with manure. Could
>>you please refer me to a specific case or cite?
>>Thanks
>>Janet US
>
> You are right to be skeptical of that claim, Janet.
>
>There are guidelines for organic farmers to use when applying manure
>to crops. There is no reason to believe or any evidence that I can
>find that organic farmers are any more or less likely than regular
>farmers to follow safety guidelines in their ag practices.
>
>I am sure there are cases of wrong-doers or mistake makers on both
>sides of the fence, but I do not think there is any reason to single
>out organic farmers or blame them more for e.coli outbreaks, Germany
>notwithstanding, as that is a very special case involving a highly
>virulent strain. And we do not even have all the details of it yet.
>
>I grow most of my veggies organically, and though I do not sell
>anything, I'd not be able to get any certification as I am known to
>use systemics or sprays on my roses. They are nowhere near the veggies
>or in separate tubs, but I am sure some rules are being broken.
>
>Oh, and I have been known in some circumstance to use Miracle Gro on a
>thing or two, if I don't have enough compost to go around.
>
>Janet....do you know anything about leeks? I left a dozen in the
>ground over the winter and they are about to bloom, damn near 3 feet
>tall. Should I just let them go? Can they be pulled and eaten? Should
>I go google some info?
>
>Boron

First the manure. . .farmers spread it on their fields whether they
are organic farmers or not. There is a piece of equipment called a
manure spreader.
Second the leeks. . .I've not grown leeks, but I would treat them the
same as I do onions, those little bulbs that you plant to get green
onions. Often I don't get them out of the ground before it gets too
hot here and they will die back and disappear. The following spring
they burst out of the ground and grow with the intent to bloom. I
pull them before they bloom even thought the center bloom stem may
have gotten hard. I just go ahead and use them as regular green
onions. I cut off the hard stem. I'm guessing you could do leeks the
same way. Let me know, I am curious. My neighbor grows leeks but she
pulls everything in the fall, including parsley (missing the most
abundant part of the crop the following spring)
I'm off to plant tomatoes, green beans, corn and cucumbers today. I
know I'm really pushing it on the corn for time. It is still fairly
cold here and my sun will begin to be limited due to neighbor's trees.
Damn! I long for the days when we had 70F in April. instead of 42F in
June.
Janet US

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 11:14:50 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

> Janet....do you know anything about leeks? I left a dozen in the
> ground over the winter and they are about to bloom, damn near 3 feet
> tall. Should I just let them go? Can they be pulled and eaten? Should
> I go google some info?

I say let them bloom, take a picture and post it here.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 11:20:11 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 08:45:13 -0600, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 10:38:39 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>>snip
>>>
>>>Yeah, those sprouts were marketed as organic.
>>snip
>>
>>The troubling part is that they don't know where the sprouts became
>>contaminated. The stories I have read have said that the particular
>>farm shows no current evidence of contamination. I'm not disputing
>>the conclusion. I'm just wondering how/where it happened. I'm sure
>>that the trucks and so forth that do the hauling etc. have been
>>checked. You would think that the bacteria would still be in
>>evidence somewhere.
>>Janet US
>
>Sprouts are particularly susceptible to bacterial contamination. See
>the article quote below.
>
>Boron
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...e-coli-germany
>
>Raw bean sprouts may be renowned as the health obsessive's foodstuff
>of choice, but according to the UK's leading expert on E coli their
>susceptibility to bacteria means they should be viewed in much the
>same way as uncooked oysters.
>
>The problem comes during the sprouting process, according to Hugh
>Pennington, emeritus professor of bacteriology at the University of
>Aberdeen, who led inquiries into two E coli outbreaks, including one
>in Scotland in 1996 that killed 21 people.
>
>"When you germinate them, you put them into warm water – it's ideal
>conditions for the bacteria to grow," he said. "They've done
>experimental studies on contaminating bean sprouts and seeing what
>happens to the bacteria during the sprouting process, and you can get
>up to a million-fold increase in the number of bacteria. It's like
>incubating a culture of bacteria."

Yes. The alfalfa sprout seeds (actually all their sprouting seeds)
that I purchased from Jung seeds carry the injunction to soak in
bleach water -- I think 1 part bleach to 9 parts water -- for one
minute, then rinse and then begin sprouting. My understanding is that
many US sprouters follow a similar practice.

No one has ever clarified for me whether the seeds themselves carry
the bacteria or if e coli is just present all around us and lands on
the sprouting seeds.

Janet US

On 11/06/2011 11:12 AM, Janet wrote:
> In >, Brooklyn1 says...
>>
>>
>> Better than 99.9% of farm land is bottom land... last time I checked
>> shit runs down hill... there is no such thing as organic farming.
>
> Animal shit and urine are organic fertilisers Organic farmers and growers
> often use animal manure fertilisers, perhaps you weren't aware of that.
>


I am well aware of it. I am also aware of the fact that e coli thrives
in the intestines of cattle and that some varieties of the bacteria are
dangerous to humans. Proper composting kills off dangerous bacteria.
Spreading fresh cow shit on produce is a recipe for disaster.

FWIW, the farmer behind me uses manure. He grows trees and does not
have to compost it before spreading, but he usually does, especially
during rainy seasons because he doesn't want it to get into the water
course. Farmers using manure for berries and other produce must make
sure that the manure is well composted before spreading.

I don't have a cite, but I do recall and incident a few years ago where
an organic farm was a source of e-coli because they were using
improperly composted shit.

You can believe that or not. My earlier comment was about how I feel
about it and to be perfectly honest, the threat of e-coli in food
marketed as organic does concern me.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:43:28 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Avins wrote:

> On Jun 10, 9:30*am, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>> There's no such thing as organic, so long as there's gravity and
>> weather everything on this planet is connected...
>
> A flat statement like that needs justifying. Surely you don't mean
> that all foods are inorganic.
>
> Jerry

in case you haven't noticed by now, sheldon is an idiot.

your pal,
blake

On 11/06/2011 11:44 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:

> No one has ever clarified for me whether the seeds themselves carry
> the bacteria or if e coli is just present all around us and lands on
> the sprouting seeds.
>


Alfalfa is a forage crop. Cattle roam around the fields and shit is
coming out one end of the cows just about as fast as it is going in the
other. Even if the cows are not pastured in the field, you can bet there
has been manure spread on them. It can take more than 2 months for the
manure to be e coli free even when composted.

On 11/06/2011 11:38 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:

>
> First the manure. . .farmers spread it on their fields whether they
> are organic farmers or not. There is a piece of equipment called a
> manure spreader.
> Second the leeks. .


On a related not.... Back in 2000 in the town of Walkerton Ontario,
seven people died and hundreds of others became seriously ill from
e-coli. The town's water supply was the source of contamination. One
of the wells from which they drew water was contaminated by manure
runoff from a nearby farm. The contamination would have been removed in
the purification process but there were a couple of unqualified drunks
running the waterworks and the water inspection program failed to pick
up the problem.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:21:24 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 07:51:44 -0600, Janet Bostwick
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:38:13 -0400, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>> >snip
>> >>
>> >>I can't say that I have ever been particularly impressed with foods
>> >>labelled as organic. I learned not to trust the labels and can't even
>> >>believe that they really are organic. Besides, I have heard of too many
>> >>organic farmers using manure that has not been properly composted, so
>> >>there is an increased risk of e-coli.
>> >
>> >I hadn't heard of the situation that you describe with manure. Could
>> >you please refer me to a specific case or cite?
>> >Thanks
>> >Janet US
>>
>> You are right to be skeptical of that claim, Janet.
>>
>> There are guidelines for organic farmers to use when applying manure
>>
>> Janet....do you know anything about leeks? I left a dozen in the
>> ground over the winter and they are about to bloom, damn near 3 feet
>> tall. Should I just let them go? Can they be pulled and eaten? Should
>> I go google some info?
>
> A different Janet replies
>
> Leeks are too tough for eating once they start to send up flower
>shoots.
>I let them flower; they are quite spectacular and beautiful purplish
>globular flowers, bees love them. Then they will set masses of seed which
>will either self-seed around or you can save it to sow yourself.
>
> Janet UK
I love self seeding plants. So much less work. Besides, the self
seeded stuff comes up earlier and is hardier.
Janet

On Jun 11, 9:54*am, Janet > wrote:

>
> * IMO, there's a far higher general risk of food contamination from poor
> hand, bathroom, pet and food storage hygeine in the home and commercial
> kitchens. Half the people bleating about manure on vegetables probably
> didn't wash their hands after brushing the dog or before making dinner,
> and haven't a clue about fridge storage of raw meat and veg.
>
> * *Janet.

You are absolutely correct. Most of the 'stomach flu' that people
report having is from improper sanitation in the home kitchen.