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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob Simon
 
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Default Stoneware vs Porcelain

I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
scratches from knives.

Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
porcelain?

Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
occasions?

--
Bob Simon
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PENMART01
 
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>Bob Simon writes:
>
>I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
>that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
>purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
>My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
>plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
>scratches from knives.
>
>Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
>porcelain?


Porcelain is the fired on glaze used on all ceramic dinnerware. Ceramic ware
labeled porcelain is generally fired at higher temperatures, but dosen't mean
it's surface is harder, just more translucent.

>Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
>wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
>plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
>occasions?


Actually if your dinnerware is particularly valuable, _to you_, neither should
be used with steak knives. Treat yourself to an inexpensive set of generic
dinner plates, or use metal steak platters as is used by most steakhouses.
Folks generally don't serve steak at formal dinners that require formal
dinnerware.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
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Kate Connally
 
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Bob Simon wrote:
>
> I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
> that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
> purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
> My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
> plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
> scratches from knives.
>
> Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
> porcelain?


Well, I'm going to reply even though I don't really *know*.
I would say porcelain is less hard as one tends to think
of porcelain as being "delicate", and the term is used
metaphorically as when describing "porcelain" skin, meaning
"delicate. Also, the name "stoneware" implies hardness so
I'm thinking it would be harder. But then maybe it just
seems harder because it's so big and heavy compared to
porcelain, which is thinner and lighter.

> Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
> wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
> plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
> occasions?


I find it curious that, from what you've written above,
you seem to think of the porcelain as "everyday" ware and
the stoneware as your "good stuff". To me it would seem
to be the other way around. Generally porcelain is more
refined and used for "good", while stoneware is more mundane
and used for everyday. That being said, my stoneware *is*
my *good* stuff, but then I don't have any porcelain. And
also I suppose one can have cheap porcelain that would not
be as "nice" as some really good stoneware.

Kate

> --
> Bob Simon
> remove both "x"s from domain for private replies



--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?

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Bob Simon
 
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On 28 Sep 2004 20:05:38 GMT, (PENMART01) wrote:

>Actually if your dinnerware is particularly valuable, _to you_, neither should
>be used with steak knives. Treat yourself to an inexpensive set of generic
>dinner plates, or use metal steak platters as is used by most steakhouses.
>Folks generally don't serve steak at formal dinners that require formal
>dinnerware.


Sheldon,
Thank you for the suggestion. I did a Google search for "metal steak
plates" and found an ebay auction that may be suitable:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=11 649

Do you have any idea if these are likely to be made of steel? If so,
I'll try to buy them. But my 82 year old dad is taking Aricept and
I've read that tiny amounts of aluminum can cause brain damage. I
doubt if the seller knows what they're made of but I'd feel a lot
better if I were at least somewhat confident that my steak plates were
steel.

--
Bob Simon
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kilikini
 
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"Bob Simon" > wrote in message
...
> On 28 Sep 2004 20:05:38 GMT, (PENMART01) wrote:
>
>>Actually if your dinnerware is particularly valuable, _to you_, neither
>>should
>>be used with steak knives. Treat yourself to an inexpensive set of
>>generic
>>dinner plates, or use metal steak platters as is used by most steakhouses.
>>Folks generally don't serve steak at formal dinners that require formal
>>dinnerware.

>
> Sheldon,
> Thank you for the suggestion. I did a Google search for "metal steak
> plates" and found an ebay auction that may be suitable:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=11 649
>
> Do you have any idea if these are likely to be made of steel? If so,
> I'll try to buy them. But my 82 year old dad is taking Aricept and
> I've read that tiny amounts of aluminum can cause brain damage. I
> doubt if the seller knows what they're made of but I'd feel a lot
> better if I were at least somewhat confident that my steak plates were
> steel.
>
> --
> Bob Simon
> remove both "x"s from domain for private replies




Bob, alot of those metal steak plates are pewter. Why not just e-mail the
seller of the auction and ask?

kili




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Bob Simon
 
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:33:10 -0400, Kate Connally >
wrote:

>Bob Simon wrote:
>>
>> I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
>> that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
>> purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
>> My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
>> plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
>> scratches from knives.
>>
>> Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
>> porcelain?

>
>Well, I'm going to reply even though I don't really *know*.
>I would say porcelain is less hard as one tends to think
>of porcelain as being "delicate", and the term is used
>metaphorically as when describing "porcelain" skin, meaning
>"delicate. Also, the name "stoneware" implies hardness so
>I'm thinking it would be harder. But then maybe it just
>seems harder because it's so big and heavy compared to
>porcelain, which is thinner and lighter.


Kate,
Thank you for sharing your perspective. My wife may be thinking along
these lines, too.

>> Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
>> wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
>> plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
>> occasions?

>
>I find it curious that, from what you've written above,
>you seem to think of the porcelain as "everyday" ware and
>the stoneware as your "good stuff". To me it would seem
>to be the other way around. Generally porcelain is more
>refined and used for "good", while stoneware is more mundane
>and used for everyday. That being said, my stoneware *is*
>my *good* stuff, but then I don't have any porcelain. And
>also I suppose one can have cheap porcelain that would not
>be as "nice" as some really good stoneware.


Perhaps I was mistaken when I used the word porcelain. I looked it up
and see that technically it's a type of clay composed primarily of
kaolin. I don't know what type of clay our Royal Doulton plates are
made of; I called them porcelain because they are white.

The reason that I do not value them as highly as my stoneware is
because they are commercial and therefore replaceable. My four
stoneware plates, while similar enought to be considered a set, are
each unique. (And I see that you too appreciate the melding of
function and aesthetics one gets from good stoneware.)

--
Bob Simon
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PENMART01
 
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>Boob writes
>
>>I doubt if the seller knows what they're made of but I'd feel a lot
>> better if I were at least somewhat confident that my steak plates were
>> steel.

>
>Boob, alot of those metal steak plates are pewter.
>
>kili


None are of pewter... and STOP writing "alot"... makes you appear a ****ING
IGNORANT JERK.

Pewter has a relatively low melting point that would not hold up at typical
home oven temps (would deform considerably at about 300F and liquify at 600-
700F). But more importantly pewter is no longer used for food utensils as it's
an alloy of tin and *lead*... and lead definitely causes brain damage, which I
highly suspect is why certain individuals write "alot"... gross brain damage,
there is no other explanation.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````
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PENMART01
 
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>Boob writes
>
>>I doubt if the seller knows what they're made of but I'd feel a lot
>> better if I were at least somewhat confident that my steak plates were
>> steel.

>
>Boob, alot of those metal steak plates are pewter.
>
>kili


None are of pewter... and STOP writing "alot"... makes you appear a ****ING
IGNORANT JERK.

Pewter has a relatively low melting point that would not hold up at typical
home oven temps (would deform considerably at about 300F and liquify at 600-
700F). But more importantly pewter is no longer used for food utensils as it's
an alloy of tin and *lead*... and lead definitely causes brain damage, which I
highly suspect is why certain individuals write "alot"... gross brain damage,
there is no other explanation.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````
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PENMART01
 
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>>Boob, *alot* of those metal steak plates are pewter. Why not just e-mail the

>>seller of the auction and ask?

>
>Thank you. I've done that but haven't heard back yet. I'm just
>afraid the seller will have no idea. Your reply at least provided
>some useful information.
>
>Boob Simpleton


Yeah, right... useful information yer ass... you're low IQ just dropped another
5%, now you're even more stupid.

Hehe, if I didn't know this was for real it would be better than an SNL
farce... what sickos!


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````
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PENMART01
 
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>>Boob, *alot* of those metal steak plates are pewter. Why not just e-mail the

>>seller of the auction and ask?

>
>Thank you. I've done that but haven't heard back yet. I'm just
>afraid the seller will have no idea. Your reply at least provided
>some useful information.
>
>Boob Simpleton


Yeah, right... useful information yer ass... you're low IQ just dropped another
5%, now you're even more stupid.

Hehe, if I didn't know this was for real it would be better than an SNL
farce... what sickos!


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````


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Bob Simon
 
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:49:47 GMT, "kilikini"
> wrote:

>Bob, alot of those metal steak plates are pewter. Why not just e-mail the
>seller of the auction and ask?


Just heard back from the vendor. The steak plates they are selling
are aluminum.

--
Bob Simon
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PENMART01
 
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Kate hypothesized:
>>Well, I'm going to reply even though I don't really *know*.
>>porcelain, which is thinner and lighter.


<gibberish snipped>

>Kate,
>Thank you for sharing your perspective. My wife may be thinking along
>these lines, too.


Um... Kate said she doesn't really know... and she really doesn't. And now
you're openly admiting that your wife is brain damaged too, yoose two must have
the same father. Sheesh!


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````
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PENMART01
 
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>it seems prudent to avoid unnecessary exposure to aluminum.
>
>Bob Simon


Considering aluminum is a chief component comprising the Earth's crust you'd
need to leave the planet... which considering your IQ (lack thereof) would be
no great loss.

Encyclopćdia Britannica

aluminum

also spelled Aluminium chemical element, a lightweight, silvery-white metal
of main Group IIIa (boron group) of the periodic table. Aluminum is the most
abundant metallic element in the Earth's crust and the most widely used
nonferrous metal. Because of its chemical activity, aluminum never occurs in
the metallic form in nature, but its compounds are present to a greater or
lesser extent in almost all rocks, vegetation, and animals. Aluminum is
concentrated in the outer 10 miles (16 km) of the Earth's crust, of which it
constitutes about 8 percent by weight; it is exceeded in amount only by oxygen
and silicon.
---

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````
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Doug Freyburger
 
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Bob Simon wrote:
>
> I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
> that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
> purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
> My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
> plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
> scratches from knives.
>
> Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
> porcelain?


Real porcelin is often so thin light will shine through it. It
has a reputation for fragility not because it is less hard, but
because it is so thin. In fact, the ceramic used in real
porcelin is a bit harder than the ceramics used in other
stoneware and that's why it *can* be made so thin.

So basically, I don't think your Royal Doulton are real porcelin
and that makes your question about relative hardness less easy
to answer. Very likely they are made of similar ceramic and
the difference in thickness is different in strength.

But you are discussing scratches here, and strength is about
breaking more than it scratches. Scratches are effected by
the glaze not by the rest of the ceramic material.

It is very likely that both have glass glaze, equally scratchable
to a couple of decimal points. What's the chance that any plate
will be coated with syntheitc sapphire or whatever? Near
zero unless the plate was sold by Calphalon or Magnalite.

> Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
> wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
> plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
> occasions?


The words commercial and decorative should be enough to answer that.
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken
 
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Bob Simon > wrote in message >. ..
> I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
> that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
> purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
> My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
> plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
> scratches from knives.
>
> Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
> porcelain?
>
> Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
> wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
> plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
> occasions?


Bob,

As you noted, the part that's scratching isn't the porcelain, it's the
glaze, the glass on the outside of the piece. Good stoneware and
porcelain will have about equally durable glazes for the main glaze.
(Earthenware is much softer.) But many porcelains use an overglaze, a
second glaze put on top with a second firing. The most common one
would be a gold stripe around the edge of the plate. The overglaze
will be much more delicate than the main glaze. I don't know what
pattern you have, so I can't comment on this except to generalize. But
any plate is going to get some scratches with use. If you want your
stoneware to stay pristine, you can't use them.

It's sort of like having a classic car. If you take it out for a
spin, it may get a dent or ding. But if it sits in the garage, then
you can't enjoy it. It's your call.

Ken


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Ken
 
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Bob Simon > wrote in message >. ..
> I have a set of four hand-made stoneware plates with tri-color glazes
> that I consider art pieces as much as dinnerware. Years ago, we also
> purchased a set of Royal Doulton porcelain plates for everyday use.
> My wife says that since she has noticed scratches on the porcelain
> plates, we should only serve meat on the stoneware which will resist
> scratches from knives.
>
> Does anyone happen to know which is usually harder: stoneware or
> porcelain?
>
> Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
> wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
> plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
> occasions?


Bob,

As you noted, the part that's scratching isn't the porcelain, it's the
glaze, the glass on the outside of the piece. Good stoneware and
porcelain will have about equally durable glazes for the main glaze.
(Earthenware is much softer.) But many porcelains use an overglaze, a
second glaze put on top with a second firing. The most common one
would be a gold stripe around the edge of the plate. The overglaze
will be much more delicate than the main glaze. I don't know what
pattern you have, so I can't comment on this except to generalize. But
any plate is going to get some scratches with use. If you want your
stoneware to stay pristine, you can't use them.

It's sort of like having a classic car. If you take it out for a
spin, it may get a dent or ding. But if it sits in the garage, then
you can't enjoy it. It's your call.

Ken
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Bob Simon
 
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On 29 Sep 2004 11:37:59 -0700, (Doug Freyburger)
wrote:
>Bob Simon wrote:
>> Even if the glazes are typically about equally scratch-resistant,
>> wouldn't it make sense to generally use the commercial porcelain
>> plates, reserving the decorative stoneware plates for special
>> occasions?

>
>The words commercial and decorative should be enough to answer that.


and

On 29 Sep 2004 11:52:01 -0700,
(Ken)
wrote:

>Bob,
>
>As you noted, the part that's scratching isn't the porcelain, it's the
>glaze, the glass on the outside of the piece. Good stoneware and
>porcelain will have about equally durable glazes for the main glaze.
>(Earthenware is much softer.) But many porcelains use an overglaze, a
>second glaze put on top with a second firing. The most common one
>would be a gold stripe around the edge of the plate. The overglaze
>will be much more delicate than the main glaze. I don't know what
>pattern you have, so I can't comment on this except to generalize. But
>any plate is going to get some scratches with use. If you want your
>stoneware to stay pristine, you can't use them.
>
>It's sort of like having a classic car. If you take it out for a
>spin, it may get a dent or ding. But if it sits in the garage, then
>you can't enjoy it. It's your call.
>
>Ken


Doug and Ken,
Thank you for your thoughtful and informative replies. Your words
have been helpful.
Bob


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PENMART01
 
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>(Doug Freyburger) scribbles:
>
>Real porcelin is often so thin light will shine through it. It
>has a reputation for fragility not because it is less hard, but
>because it is so thin. In fact, the ceramic used in real
>porcelin is a bit harder than the ceramics used in other
>stoneware and that's why it *can* be made so thin.


Real "porcelin" is spelled *porcelain*... duh


Encyclopædia Britannica

porcelain

vitrified pottery with a white, fine-grained body that is usually translucent,
as distinguished from earthenware, which is porous, opaque, and coarser. The
distinction between porcelain and stoneware, the other class of vitrified
pottery material, is less clear. In China, porcelain is defined as pottery that
is resonant when struck; in the West, it is a material that is translucent when
held to the light. Neither definition is totally satisfactory; some heavily
potted porcelains are opaque, while some thinly potted stonewares are somewhat
translucent. The word porcelain is derived from porcellana, used by Marco Polo
to describe the pottery he saw in China.

The three main types of porcelain are true, or hard-paste, porcelain;
artificial, or soft-paste, porcelain; and bone china. Porcelain was first made
in China€”in a primitive form during the T'ang dynasty (618€“907) and in the
form best known in the West during the YĂĽan dynasty (1279€“1368). This true,
or hard-paste, porcelain was made from petuntse, or china stone (a feldspathic
rock), ground to powder and mixed with kaolin (white china clay). During the
firing, at a temperature of about 1,450° C (2,650° F), the petuntse
vitrified, while the kaolin ensured that the object retained its shape.
Attempts by medieval European potters to imitate this translucent Chinese
porcelain led to the eventual discovery of artificial, or soft-paste,
porcelain, a mixture of clay and ground glass requiring a €śsofter€ť firing
(about 1,200° C, or 2,200° F) than hard-paste porcelain. Although there is a
superficial resemblance, artificial porcelain can generally be distinguished
from true porcelain by its softer body. It can be cut with a file, for example,
whereas true porcelain cannot; and dirt accumulated on an unglazed base can be
removed only with difficulty, if at all, whereas it is easily removed from true
porcelain.

The first European soft-paste porcelain was made in Florence about 1575 at
workshops under the patronage of Francesco I de' Medici, but it was not until
the late 17th and 18th centuries that it was produced in quantity. The secret
of true porcelain, similar to the porcelain of China, was discovered about 1707
at the Meissen factory in Saxony by Johann Friedrich Böttger and Ehrenfried
Walter von Tschirnhaus. The standard English bone china body was produced
around 1800, when Josiah Spode the Second added calcined bones to the
hard-paste porcelain formula. Although hard-paste porcelain is strong, its
vitreous nature causes it to chip fairly easily, whereas bone china does not.
Hard-paste porcelain is preferred on the European continent, bone china in
Britain and the United States.

Glaze, a glasslike substance originally used to seal a porous pottery body, is
used solely for decoration on hard-paste porcelain, which is nonporous. When
feldspathic glaze and body are fired together, the one fuses intimately with
the other. Porcelain fired without a glaze, called biscuit porcelain, was
introduced in Europe in the 18th century. It was generally used for figures. In
the 19th century biscuit porcelain was called Parian ware. Some soft-paste
porcelains, which remain somewhat porous, require a glaze. After the body has
been fired, the glaze, usually containing lead, was added and fired to vitrify
it. Unlike feldspathic glaze, it adheres as a relatively thick coating.

Painted decoration on porcelain is usually executed over the fired glaze.
Because painting under the glaze€”that is, on a fired, unglazed body€”must be
fired at the same high temperature as body and glaze, many colours would
€śfire away.€ť Thus underglaze painting on porcelain is largely limited to
the extremely stable and reliable cobalt blue found on Chinese blue-and-white
wares. Most porcelain colours€”called overglaze, enamel, or low-temperature
colours€”are painted over the fired glaze and fired at a much lower
temperature.

Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
<http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9060871>
[Accessed September 28, 2004].



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````
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PENMART01
 
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>Modern pewter contains NO lead...it is now an alloy of tin and a small
>amount of copper.

Allan Matthews

Is not pewter, it's a new alloy called "pewter ware".

by modern developments is pewter ware. The composition of this alloy has
changed greatly, particularly with the elimination of the lead found in Roman
and medieval alloys. Modern pewter ware is a high-tin alloy, containing from 90
to 97 percent tin and small additions of antimony and copper€”elements that
are added to harden and strengthen the intrinsically soft tin. -Brit-

---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````


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