Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since I
bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3 or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature sensor, so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45 minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which one
is right??

Pete

In article k.net, "Peter
Cook" writes:

My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles
I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3 or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature sensor, so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45 minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which one
is right??

Those tiles are interfering with the oven's natural convection, therefore also
interfering with the oven's thermostat... not only that, lining your oven with
tiles most likely voids the manufacturer's warranty regarding any damage
resulting thereof.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

How long is the oven on when you are noticing the temperature difference.
The tile are going to absorb heat for a long before the temp in the oven is
going to balance out.

Tim

"Peter Cook" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since I
bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3
or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature sensor,
so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45
minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are
tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which
one
is right??

Pete

"Peter Cook" wrote in message thlink.net...
Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since I
bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3 or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature sensor, so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45 minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which one
is right??

Did the oven manufacturer recommended that tiles be put into the oven?
If you just personally modified the oven but the equipment does not
have an allowance for the corresponding difference of heat due to the
absorption of the ceramic surfaces which behaves as a heat sink..
The main issue here is not temperature difference which is academic
from the point of the baker. Rather how does the oven perform in the
baking process.
Are ypu getting excellent bread with that set up even if the dual
temperature readinds are not equal. If the answer is affirmative then
do not worry about temperature fluctuation. As you already know how
to determine tthe desired heat requirements for a certain baked
product
I have seen ovens in commercial setting that register temperature that
is low to be considered suitable for crusty bread baking ; but what
is surpising is from the hands of capable ba,ker the breads comes out
excelllent. who sense the heat through experience. Meanwhile an
apprentice who do the same task usually is unable to get consistent
results..
I was wondering if the ceramic tiles is hindering the flow of radiated
heat from the hot ooils resulting that the registered temperature
fluctuates.
Sometimes slight modification of the temperature sensors distance
will improve the temperature display to corresponds with the portable
thermometer.
Usually its a common occurence the in built oven thermometer does not
give similar value as the portable thermometer probe you are using.
The manufacturer has calibtated the thermoter to register the
appropriate um of the convective, radiative and conductive heat in the
oven atmosphere. They did not have an allowance for modifications just
as you had done.
Therefore if you modify the oven by placing tiles then you should
correspondingly adjsust the tempereature sensing coil to be elevated
or lowered in the same level as your portable taylor thermometer.
But if you had baked bread consistently with even that temperaure
difference ; then you do not have to worry about it.
Let your baking experience be the guide in obtaining consistent result
and ignore the temperature difference.
Remember baking is not just by following the temperature settings as
given by a recipe book but how your commonsense make you adapt the
recipe to your system.
Roy

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 21:18:00 GMT, "Peter Cook"
wrote:

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which one
is right??

Probably depends on the position of the oven's sensor. Can you place
your thermometer next to the sensor?

Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor? If so, the oven may be
"cutting off" prematurely due to the oven's sensor reaching the desired
temperature on the side of the tile next to the heating element and oven's
thermometer. If you move the tile away from the temperature sensor in the
oven, it should stay "on" until the whole thing is up to temperature, not
just on one side of a single tile.

Sid

"Peter Cook" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since I
bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3
or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature sensor,
so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45
minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are
tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which
one
is right??

Pete

Thanks for the many responses. To answer a few of the questions:

1. "Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor?" No, the tiles are
on the bottom shelf of the oven, just above the bottom heating element, and
the sensor is toward the top of the oven.

2. Are you getting excellent bread?" Absolutely! (if I may say so myself).
But of course we use the oven for all kinds of other things, too, and many
of them need relatively accurate cooking temperatures. I suppose I could put
the tiles in only when baking bread, but I've read of many people just
leaving them in and never heard of this problem before.

3. "Can you place your thermometer next to the sensor?" The sensor and the
thermometer are within an inch or so of each other. So this doesn't appear
to be caused by temperature gradients within the oven or a convection
problem.

4. "Did the oven manufacturer recommended that tiles be put into the oven?"
Not as far as I know. The oven (Magic Chef, now owned by Maytag) was here
when we bought the house, and I haven't found any indication one way or the
other. But as I mentioned, I've read of many people doing this -
particularly bread bakers - and haven't heard of any problems.

5. "How long is the oven on when you are noticing the temperature
difference?" 45 minutes or more. Once the oven gets up to temp, both
readings are stable and the difference doesn't change.

So here I am, still wondering which reading to believe. I am tempted to
believe the Taylor, since it's known for its accuracy, and to assume that
some weird phenomenon is throwing off the oven sensor. It's a shame, really,
because the convenience of having an accurate sensor means we don't have to
open the oven, check the thermometer, adjust the temp, check again, etc.


"Sidney" wrote in message
news:BgYIb.97393$pY.4662@fed1read04...
Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor? If so, the oven may be
"cutting off" prematurely due to the oven's sensor reaching the desired
temperature on the side of the tile next to the heating element and oven's
thermometer. If you move the tile away from the temperature sensor in the
oven, it should stay "on" until the whole thing is up to temperature, not
just on one side of a single tile.

Sid

"Peter Cook" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since
I
bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly
lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3
or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature
sensor,
so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45
minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are
tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which
one
is right??

Pete

Peter,

The temperature that counts is the stable (adiabatic) temperature of the
oven walls and the tiles, attained after adequate preheating (45 minutes
sounds like enough).

It may be that the oven sensor is doing a better job of measuring the
wall temperature than the Taylor thermometer, which, after all, can only
measure air temperature. Can you read the Taylor thermometer through a
closed oven door, with the oven light on? (Here I am presuming, with no
evidence, that the oven has both a light and a transparent door.) If so,
so you find the same discrepancy?

In that case, I would suggest that perhaps your tiles cover too much
area relative to the heating element and therefore interfere with
convection within the oven. How much clear space is there around the
outside of the tiles? How much vertical space is between the heating
element and the tiles? If either or both of these is too small, poor
convection, especially if it is combined with the opening of the oven
door, could account for the difference.

Dick

Peter Cook wrote:

Thanks for the many responses. To answer a few of the questions:

1. "Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor?" No, the tiles are
on the bottom shelf of the oven, just above the bottom heating element, and
the sensor is toward the top of the oven.

2. Are you getting excellent bread?" Absolutely! (if I may say so myself).
But of course we use the oven for all kinds of other things, too, and many
of them need relatively accurate cooking temperatures. I suppose I could put
the tiles in only when baking bread, but I've read of many people just
leaving them in and never heard of this problem before.

3. "Can you place your thermometer next to the sensor?" The sensor and the
thermometer are within an inch or so of each other. So this doesn't appear
to be caused by temperature gradients within the oven or a convection
problem.

4. "Did the oven manufacturer recommended that tiles be put into the oven?"
Not as far as I know. The oven (Magic Chef, now owned by Maytag) was here
when we bought the house, and I haven't found any indication one way or the
other. But as I mentioned, I've read of many people doing this -
particularly bread bakers - and haven't heard of any problems.

5. "How long is the oven on when you are noticing the temperature
difference?" 45 minutes or more. Once the oven gets up to temp, both
readings are stable and the difference doesn't change.

So here I am, still wondering which reading to believe. I am tempted to
believe the Taylor, since it's known for its accuracy, and to assume that
some weird phenomenon is throwing off the oven sensor. It's a shame, really,
because the convenience of having an accurate sensor means we don't have to
open the oven, check the thermometer, adjust the temp, check again, etc.


"Sidney" wrote in message
news:BgYIb.97393$pY.4662@fed1read04...

Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor? If so, the oven may be
"cutting off" prematurely due to the oven's sensor reaching the desired
temperature on the side of the tile next to the heating element and oven's
thermometer. If you move the tile away from the temperature sensor in the
oven, it should stay "on" until the whole thing is up to temperature, not
just on one side of a single tile.

Sid

"Peter Cook" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since

I

bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly

lower

than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3

or

4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature

sensor,

so

they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45

minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are

tiles

involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which

one

is right??

Pete

That could be the answer. Our oven is not huge, so to bake relatively large
breads I covered most of the bottom rack with the tiles. The space between
the bottom of the tiles and the heating element is probably about an inch.
I'll try allowing more space and see what happens.

the Taylor thermometer...can only measure air temperature.

Doesn't the oven sensor measure air temperature, too? It sticks out into the
oven about 4 inches and it's located about 2 inches below the top of the
oven. How

I can't read the taylor through the door because the door glass is pretty
cloudy. But I've opened the door and taken the readings very quickly, both
with and without the tiles.

Thanks for your comments, Dick.

Pete

"Dick Margulis" wrote in message
...
Peter,

The temperature that counts is the stable (adiabatic) temperature of the
oven walls and the tiles, attained after adequate preheating (45 minutes
sounds like enough).

It may be that the oven sensor is doing a better job of measuring the
wall temperature than the Taylor thermometer, which, after all, can only
measure air temperature. Can you read the Taylor thermometer through a
closed oven door, with the oven light on? (Here I am presuming, with no
evidence, that the oven has both a light and a transparent door.) If so,
so you find the same discrepancy?

In that case, I would suggest that perhaps your tiles cover too much
area relative to the heating element and therefore interfere with
convection within the oven. How much clear space is there around the
outside of the tiles? How much vertical space is between the heating
element and the tiles? If either or both of these is too small, poor
convection, especially if it is combined with the opening of the oven
door, could account for the difference.

Dick

Peter Cook wrote:

Thanks for the many responses. To answer a few of the questions:

1. "Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor?" No, the tiles
are
on the bottom shelf of the oven, just above the bottom heating element,
and
the sensor is toward the top of the oven.

2. Are you getting excellent bread?" Absolutely! (if I may say so
myself).
But of course we use the oven for all kinds of other things, too, and
many
of them need relatively accurate cooking temperatures. I suppose I could
put
the tiles in only when baking bread, but I've read of many people just
leaving them in and never heard of this problem before.

3. "Can you place your thermometer next to the sensor?" The sensor and
the
thermometer are within an inch or so of each other. So this doesn't
appear
to be caused by temperature gradients within the oven or a convection
problem.

4. "Did the oven manufacturer recommended that tiles be put into the
oven?"
Not as far as I know. The oven (Magic Chef, now owned by Maytag) was
here
when we bought the house, and I haven't found any indication one way or
the
other. But as I mentioned, I've read of many people doing this -
particularly bread bakers - and haven't heard of any problems.

5. "How long is the oven on when you are noticing the temperature
difference?" 45 minutes or more. Once the oven gets up to temp, both
readings are stable and the difference doesn't change.

So here I am, still wondering which reading to believe. I am tempted to
believe the Taylor, since it's known for its accuracy, and to assume
that
some weird phenomenon is throwing off the oven sensor. It's a shame,
really,
because the convenience of having an accurate sensor means we don't have
to
open the oven, check the thermometer, adjust the temp, check again, etc.


"Sidney" wrote in message
news:BgYIb.97393$pY.4662@fed1read04...

Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor? If so, the oven may
be
"cutting off" prematurely due to the oven's sensor reaching the desired
temperature on the side of the tile next to the heating element and
oven's
thermometer. If you move the tile away from the temperature sensor in
the
oven, it should stay "on" until the whole thing is up to temperature,
not
just on one side of a single tile.

Sid

"Peter Cook" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles
since

I

bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp,
and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly

lower

than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures
(475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within
3

or

4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature

sensor,

so

they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45

minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are

tiles

involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which

one

is right??

Pete

I have an electric oven also. I have never compaired the actual temp
with my tiles in place, that I remember, but have found, that if I bake
anything else, a casserole or cake that the time is all wrong, as if the
oven is cooler than needed. Therefore I remove the tiles if not baking
bread for a better result for my other baking...Pat

Peter Cook wrote:

Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles since I
bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp, and
when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly lower
than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures (475),
it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within 3 or
4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature sensor, so
they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45 minutes.

Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are tiles
involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which one
is right??

Pete

Peter Cook wrote:

That could be the answer. Our oven is not huge, so to bake relatively large
breads I covered most of the bottom rack with the tiles. The space between
the bottom of the tiles and the heating element is probably about an inch.
I'll try allowing more space and see what happens.

An inch vertical seems tight to me, especially if the margin around the
outside is also narrow. Without the assistance of a convection fan, you
are relying on the tendency of warmer air to rise through cooler air,
and this movement will be slower if it is physically impeded as yours is.


the Taylor thermometer...can only measure air temperature.


Doesn't the oven sensor measure air temperature, too? It sticks out into the
oven about 4 inches and it's located about 2 inches below the top of the
oven. How

The rest of your question was truncated, but to answer what you meant to
ask, the oven probe is reacting both to air temperature and to the heat
radiated from the top of the oven, absorbed by the probe's black
surface, and thence conveyed to its working fluid (air or whatever). The
last time I bought a Taylor oven thermometer (some decades ago), it was
a shiny metal case with air holes in the back--not an ideal absorber of
radiant heat. I don't know that it is still designed the same way, but
if it is, that would account for the difference in readings, as I
alluded to above, under certain conditions.



I can't read the taylor through the door because the door glass is pretty
cloudy. But I've opened the door and taken the readings very quickly, both
with and without the tiles.

Thanks for your comments, Dick.

Pete

"Dick Margulis" wrote in message
...

Peter,

The temperature that counts is the stable (adiabatic) temperature of the
oven walls and the tiles, attained after adequate preheating (45 minutes
sounds like enough).

It may be that the oven sensor is doing a better job of measuring the
wall temperature than the Taylor thermometer, which, after all, can only
measure air temperature. Can you read the Taylor thermometer through a
closed oven door, with the oven light on? (Here I am presuming, with no
evidence, that the oven has both a light and a transparent door.) If so,
so you find the same discrepancy?

In that case, I would suggest that perhaps your tiles cover too much
area relative to the heating element and therefore interfere with
convection within the oven. How much clear space is there around the
outside of the tiles? How much vertical space is between the heating
element and the tiles? If either or both of these is too small, poor
convection, especially if it is combined with the opening of the oven
door, could account for the difference.

Dick

Peter Cook wrote:


Thanks for the many responses. To answer a few of the questions:

1. "Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor?" No, the tiles

are

on the bottom shelf of the oven, just above the bottom heating element,

and

the sensor is toward the top of the oven.

2. Are you getting excellent bread?" Absolutely! (if I may say so

myself).

But of course we use the oven for all kinds of other things, too, and

many

of them need relatively accurate cooking temperatures. I suppose I could

put

the tiles in only when baking bread, but I've read of many people just
leaving them in and never heard of this problem before.

3. "Can you place your thermometer next to the sensor?" The sensor and

the

thermometer are within an inch or so of each other. So this doesn't

appear

to be caused by temperature gradients within the oven or a convection
problem.

4. "Did the oven manufacturer recommended that tiles be put into the

oven?"

Not as far as I know. The oven (Magic Chef, now owned by Maytag) was

here

when we bought the house, and I haven't found any indication one way or

the

other. But as I mentioned, I've read of many people doing this -
particularly bread bakers - and haven't heard of any problems.

5. "How long is the oven on when you are noticing the temperature
difference?" 45 minutes or more. Once the oven gets up to temp, both
readings are stable and the difference doesn't change.

So here I am, still wondering which reading to believe. I am tempted to
believe the Taylor, since it's known for its accuracy, and to assume

that

some weird phenomenon is throwing off the oven sensor. It's a shame,

really,

because the convenience of having an accurate sensor means we don't have

to

open the oven, check the thermometer, adjust the temp, check again, etc.


"Sidney" wrote in message
news:BgYIb.97393$pY.4662@fed1read04...


Is the tile against the ovens thermometer/sensor? If so, the oven may

be

"cutting off" prematurely due to the oven's sensor reaching the desired
temperature on the side of the tile next to the heating element and

oven's

thermometer. If you move the tile away from the temperature sensor in

the

oven, it should stay "on" until the whole thing is up to temperature,

not

just on one side of a single tile.

Sid

"Peter Cook" wrote in message
. earthlink.net...


Anyone encounter this? My electric oven is lined with quarry tiles

since

I


bake a lot of bread. I use a Taylor thermometer to measure the temp,

and

when the tiles are in the oven, the thermometer reads significantly

lower


than the oven's digital readout after preheating. At lower temperatures
(300), the difference is about 60 degrees. At higher temperatures

(475),

it's about 25 degrees.

When the tiles are removed, the readout and the thermometer are within

3

or


4 degrees. I keep the thermometer close to the oven's temperature

sensor,


so


they are measuring temperature at the same location in the oven.

All readings are taken after the oven has preheated for at least 45

minutes.


Obviously the heating characteristics of an oven change when there are

tiles


involved. But why would they cause the thermometer and the oven's
temperature sensor to behave differently? And most importantly -- which

one


is right??

Pete

Dick Margulis wrote:

nancy is writing:

I cannot believe how much text you didn't delete when replying.
You really should clip. It was ridiculous.

Nancy Young wrote:

Dick Margulis wrote:

nancy is writing:

I cannot believe how much text you didn't delete when replying.
You really should clip. It was ridiculous.


Happy New Year to you, too, Nancy! Is there anything else I can help you
with today?

Dick Margulis wrote:

Nancy Young wrote:

Dick Margulis wrote:

nancy is writing:

I cannot believe how much text you didn't delete when replying.
You really should clip. It was ridiculous.

Happy New Year to you, too, Nancy! Is there anything else I can help you
with today?

Right back atcha, just snip next time.

nancy

Nancy Young writes:

Dick Margulis wrote:

nancy is writing:

I cannot believe how much text you didn't delete when replying.
You really should clip. It was ridiculous.

He's reDICKulous.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."