.... is not that it is such a great dish, but that it seems to have
been so brilliantly marketed that people will quite willingly pay
relatively high prices for what is basically not much more than Welsh
rarebit with tomato sauce added. This phenomenon has spread all over
the world, thanks in no small part to the pax americana, and no doubt
one of the benefits the Iraqi people will soon be able to enjoy will
be take-home pizza.

The phenomenal international success of pizza is all the more when you
think how suprised you would be to find international chains of welsh
rarebit takeouts and Welsh rarebit multimillionaires.

My first experience with pizza was not until I was 19 years old. (I
must have had a sheltered life.) On a midwinter hitchhike to freezing
Milan to see an art exhibition (which turned out to be closed over the
Xmas holidays!) I had my first slice of pizza in a Milanese pizza
shop. Offered various types of pizza, I chose a slice of the
Neapolitano, not having a clue what that meant, but apparently it
meant 'with anchovies', which turned out to be a good choice, as I
love the flavor of anchovies.

My interest in pizza then lay dormant for about 10 years until I first
came to the United States and somehow found myself buying pizza,
though I don't remember the circumstances. I was asked what topping I
wanted, so I asked what was available. The girl (or was it a boy?)
said that they had everything, so I asked for anchovies, which, of
course, were not available--and hardly ever are in pizza places in the
US, though it is a different story in Italian restaurants in the US.

Recently I decided to make some pizza. Actually I think I made some a
few years ago, but it turned out less than stellar as the crust was
too doughy. So I looked for some recipes, and it struck me that it
might be better to go with a batter-based dough recipe than a yeast
dough-based one, as this should produce a crisper crust.

I found this recipe for the crust on the Internet and made up the
batter. Apparently it is called 'Krazy Crust' and is attributed to B.
Crocker, so I guess it is more or less in the public domain.


1-1/2 cups flour
1/2 tsp. baking powder
1 tsp. salt
1/8 tsp. pepper
2/3 cup milk
2 eggs, beaten

I also added a tablespoon of chopped garlic.

I olive oiled a 14" chef's pan that I have, and poured in the batter.
(The chef's pan is about $14 from Wal*Mart and is indispensible, in my
opinion.)

With the oven at 425 degrees, I set the pan at the top of the oven,
and withdrew it after 12 minutes, when the crust was a light gold
color. So far, so good.

Then for the top part I took a jar of Bertolli Mediterranean Olive
pasta sauce with Sundried Tomatoes and spread about 1/3 of the 26 oz
jar on the dough.

This looked OK, so I then grated up a piece of leftover aged Cheddar
cheese (Black Diamond from Sam's Club, I believe) and scattered that
on top of the tomato stuff. I know that pizza usually uses a lot of
mozzarella cheese, but I didn't have any, and anyway that stuff always
seems pretty tasteless to me. Then I looked in the cupboard to see
what else I could add, and found some Parmesan cheese, which had
probably never been anywhere near Parma, but added a bit of an
Italianesque ambience to the dish. Then I ground some pepper onto the
top, and after a last look around the kitchen, I had a sense that
perhaps some oregano would not go amiss, so I shook some of that onto
it too.

Now I put the whole lot into the oven at the same temperature and left
it there 10 minutes, until all the cheese was melted.

Results? Pretty depressing, because this ad hoc concoction turned out
to be about as good as any pizza I had ever had, and certainly much
better than what you would get from Domino's or one of the other pizza
franchises. It had a great aroma, zesty flavor, and the crust was
excellent--nice and crisp, but not hard to chew, and not soggy in the
middle like those pizzas you buy at pizza places.

Opportunities for improvement? Next time I will add some anchovy paste
to the crust batter, or perhaps some Thai fish sauce will do the
trick. Possibly I will make the pasta sauce from scratch, though I am
not sure that this would make it taste any better. I don't know
whether toppings will improve it much. Some nice juicy black olives
might give it more plate appeal, but I would think that mushrooms and
things would just be overwhelmed by the flavor of the cheese and
tomatoes. Pepperoni? No, no, NO!

The jar of pasta sauce cost $1.80, and it will make 3 pizzas, so that
is pretty good value. I probably put $1 worth of cheese into it too.
You can figure out the cost of the crust yourself, but I suppose the
whole thing cost less than $2.50 (plus electricity).

Real pizza can be sublime. The stuff marketed as pizza in the US is for the
most part a completely different animal than true pizza , and IMO is usually
consistently unnapealling. But real Italian pizza, whether Neopolitan style
(with a thin, tender crust) or Roman style (with the thin crackery crust you
like) is fantastic, and is all about the crust rather than the toppings.


... is not that it is such a great dish, but that it seems to have
been so brilliantly marketed that people will quite willingly pay
relatively high prices for what is basically not much more than Welsh
rarebit with tomato sauce added. This phenomenon has spread all over
the world, thanks in no small part to the pax americana, and no doubt
one of the benefits the Iraqi people will soon be able to enjoy will
be take-home pizza.

CapnFntasy wrote:

Real pizza can be sublime. The stuff marketed as pizza in the US is for the
most part a completely different animal than true pizza , and IMO is usually
consistently unnapealling. But real Italian pizza, whether Neopolitan style
(with a thin, tender crust) or Roman style (with the thin crackery crust you
like) is fantastic, and is all about the crust rather than the toppings.



... is not that it is such a great dish, but that it seems to have
been so brilliantly marketed that people will quite willingly pay
relatively high prices for what is basically not much more than Welsh
rarebit with tomato sauce added. This phenomenon has spread all over
the world, thanks in no small part to the pax americana, and no doubt
one of the benefits the Iraqi people will soon be able to enjoy will
be take-home pizza.




You missed the boat. It is about the friends you are sharing this pizza
with and the freshest possible ingredients in a warm and hospitable
environment. What a waste of your trip to Italy. Oh, you didn't go? Or
were you winoed out?


jim

On 31 Dec 2003 06:33:30 GMT, (CapnFntasy) wrote:

Real pizza can be sublime. The stuff marketed as pizza in the US is for the
most part a completely different animal than true pizza , and IMO is usually
consistently unnapealling. But real Italian pizza, whether Neopolitan style
(with a thin, tender crust) or Roman style (with the thin crackery crust you
like) is fantastic, and is all about the crust rather than the toppings.

Armageddon tired of "only imitation food in the US." Yes, the giant
chains market fast-food versions, but there are many, many other
pizzas available inside US boundries, from those indistinguisable from
their Italian counterparts to California-style 'new age' veg
creations. (Which may not be Italian, but are mighty tasty.)

There is a vanishingly small number of recipes for *anything* that
have not undergone considerable change over time and distance. Pizza
is far from a single "authentic" recipe. "Real...true pizza" is
entirely in the eye (or taste preferences, or even memory) of the
diner.

yep, I don't disagree with that. I love a good NY style pizza and have had some
chicago styles that, while I don't usually go for them, were very tasty.
Alls I was saying was that a lot of pizza here has been mutilated to the point
where it's understandable that the OP thinks it sucks, because it's mostly of
the Dominoes, Pizza Hut, etc. variety.

On 31 Dec 2003 06:33:30 GMT, (CapnFntasy) wrote:

Real pizza can be sublime. The stuff marketed as pizza in the US is for the
most part a completely different animal than true pizza , and IMO is usually
consistently unnapealling. But real Italian pizza, whether Neopolitan style
(with a thin, tender crust) or Roman style (with the thin crackery crust you
like) is fantastic, and is all about the crust rather than the toppings.

Armageddon tired of "only imitation food in the US." Yes, the giant
chains market fast-food versions, but there are many, many other
pizzas available inside US boundries, from those indistinguisable from
their Italian counterparts to California-style 'new age' veg
creations. (Which may not be Italian, but are mighty tasty.)

There is a vanishingly small number of recipes for *anything* that
have not undergone considerable change over time and distance. Pizza
is far from a single "authentic" recipe. "Real...true pizza" is
entirely in the eye (or taste preferences, or even memory) of the
diner.

umm, right....settle down there Sparky.

You missed the boat. It is about the friends you are sharing this pizza
with and the freshest possible ingredients in a warm and hospitable
environment. What a waste of your trip to Italy. Oh, you didn't go? Or
were you winoed out?


jim

Hi Capn,
Do you know how to make a good Naples style crust? I travelled there
last year and have been craving the real thing ever since, but can't
find it where I live. I figured I might as well make it. Any
suggestions?

Thanks!

Dina


(CapnFntasy) wrote in message ...
Real pizza can be sublime. The stuff marketed as pizza in the US is for the
most part a completely different animal than true pizza , and IMO is usually
consistently unnapealling. But real Italian pizza, whether Neopolitan style
(with a thin, tender crust) or Roman style (with the thin crackery crust you
like) is fantastic, and is all about the crust rather than the toppings.


... is not that it is such a great dish, but that it seems to have
been so brilliantly marketed that people will quite willingly pay
relatively high prices for what is basically not much more than Welsh
rarebit with tomato sauce added. This phenomenon has spread all over
the world, thanks in no small part to the pax americana, and no doubt
one of the benefits the Iraqi people will soon be able to enjoy will
be take-home pizza.

Neopolitan pizza is traditionally cooked in either a wood burning or coal oven,
which yields infernal temperatures of 900 degrees. It's this high heat and
quick cooking time that allows Neopolitan crust to be ethereally light and
tender. To replicate it at home, use an oven stone. It still won't be quite as
light and tender as a true Neopolitan, and takes longer to bake, but it does
yield very good results.
Another thing that makes a huge difference is 00 flour, which can be found at
Italian markets. It is a low gluten flour, which creates a tender dough. If you
can't find 00 flour, you can approximate it with a combination of 1 cup cake
flour (not self-rising) and 2 1/2 to 3 cups AP flour for the recipe below.

Neopolitan Pizza Dough


1 teaspoon active dry yeast
1 1/4 cups warm water (105 to 115 degrees F)
3 1/2-4 cups 00 flour
2 teaspoons salt
Olive oil for the bowl
1. Sprinkle the yeast over the water. Let stand 1 minute, or until the yeast is
creamy. Stir until the yeast dissolves.

2. In a large bowl, combine the cake flour, 2 1/2 cups of the all-purpose
flour, and the salt. Add the yeast mixture and stir until a soft dough forms.
Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface and knead, adding more flour
if necessary, until smooth and elastic, about 10 minutes.

3. Lightly coat a large bowl with oil. Place the dough in the bowl, turning it
to oil the top. Cover with plastic wrap. Place in a warm, draft-free place and
let rise until doubled in bulk, about 1 1/2 hours.

4. Flatten the dough with your fist. Cut the dough into 2 to 4 pieces and shape
the pieces into balls. Dust the tops with flour.

5. Place the balls on a floured surface and cover each with plastic wrap,
allowing room for the dough to expand. Let rise 60 to 90 minutes, or until
doubled.

6. Thirty to sixty minutes before baking the pizzas, place a baking stone or
unglazed quarry tiles on a rack in the lowest level of the oven. Turn on the
oven to the maximum temperature, 500 or 550 degrees F.

7. Shape the pizzas by stretching with the base of your palm or by roting your
knuckles. Do not use a rolling pin. Try to obtain pizzas that are about 10
inches in diameter.

8. Add crushed tomatoes, fresh choped mozzarella, olive oil, and whole basil
leaves.

9. Sprinkly some flour on pre-heated stone and with peel transfer pizza to
stone.

10. Bake for about 3-5 minutes (or longer if you loaded the pizza with
toppings).

-Suzin

Richard Periut writes:

My youngest one is more of a vegetarian.
I've never seen an 11 year old like greens and
salads so much.

Anyway, they both like the "pitzas", and it's more healthier than fast
food.

Um, "more healthier"?!?!? I sure hope that kid hasn't your genes... probably
was the UPS driver anyway, using your mail order Viagra.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

CapnFntasy wrote:
Neopolitan pizza is traditionally cooked in either a wood burning or coal oven,
which yields infernal temperatures of 900 degrees. It's this high heat and
quick cooking time that allows Neopolitan crust to be ethereally light and
tender. To replicate it at home, use an oven stone. It still won't be quite as
light and tender as a true Neopolitan, and takes longer to bake, but it does
yield very good results.
Another thing that makes a huge difference is 00 flour, which can be found at
Italian markets. It is a low gluten flour, which creates a tender dough. If you
can't find 00 flour, you can approximate it with a combination of 1 cup cake
flour (not self-rising) and 2 1/2 to 3 cups AP flour for the recipe below.

Neopolitan Pizza Dough


1 teaspoon active dry yeast
1 1/4 cups warm water (105 to 115 degrees F)
3 1/2-4 cups 00 flour
2 teaspoons salt
Olive oil for the bowl
1. Sprinkle the yeast over the water. Let stand 1 minute, or until the yeast is
creamy. Stir until the yeast dissolves.

2. In a large bowl, combine the cake flour, 2 1/2 cups of the all-purpose
flour, and the salt. Add the yeast mixture and stir until a soft dough forms.
Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface and knead, adding more flour
if necessary, until smooth and elastic, about 10 minutes.

3. Lightly coat a large bowl with oil. Place the dough in the bowl, turning it
to oil the top. Cover with plastic wrap. Place in a warm, draft-free place and
let rise until doubled in bulk, about 1 1/2 hours.

4. Flatten the dough with your fist. Cut the dough into 2 to 4 pieces and shape
the pieces into balls. Dust the tops with flour.

5. Place the balls on a floured surface and cover each with plastic wrap,
allowing room for the dough to expand. Let rise 60 to 90 minutes, or until
doubled.

6. Thirty to sixty minutes before baking the pizzas, place a baking stone or
unglazed quarry tiles on a rack in the lowest level of the oven. Turn on the
oven to the maximum temperature, 500 or 550 degrees F.

7. Shape the pizzas by stretching with the base of your palm or by roting your
knuckles. Do not use a rolling pin. Try to obtain pizzas that are about 10
inches in diameter.

8. Add crushed tomatoes, fresh choped mozzarella, olive oil, and whole basil
leaves.

9. Sprinkly some flour on pre-heated stone and with peel transfer pizza to
stone.

10. Bake for about 3-5 minutes (or longer if you loaded the pizza with
toppings).

-Suzin

I agree 100% with your recipe.... I would like to add:

It may take little longer than 5 minutes. To see if the pizza is ready
lift one side and check the bottom.

The crushed or finely chopped tomatoes can be seasoned with salt and
pepper. I like to add the chopped fresh mozzarella (well drained) after
about 2-3 minutes, and the fresh basil leaves when I remove the pizza
from the oven.

Ciao,

Anna Maria

www.annamariavolpi.com

PENMART01 wrote:
Richard Periut writes:

My youngest one is more of a vegetarian.
I've never seen an 11 year old like greens and
salads so much.

Anyway, they both like the "pitzas", and it's more healthier than fast
food.


Um, "more healthier"?!?!? I sure hope that kid hasn't your genes... probably
was the UPS driver anyway, using your mail order Viagra.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."


Listen up mutant:

A pita loaf, skim mutz, and a tomato paste sauce is not healthier than
KFC and the like?

Sheldon, you started drinking early again!!! Geez! Cant you wait till dusk!

UPS driver? Hmm. Both my kids have light blue eyes, and me and my wife
have brown. It's possible; however my eldest is my spittin image (with
the eyes different,) and my youngest has some of my features.

Mail order viagra? Well I don't need it for the moment, but I can
guarantee you that they day I do, I'll have a continuos source of it for
free ; ) But I speculate by then, they'll have more powerful stuff.

Happy New Year to you and your family (if you have one.)

Rich

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.

Yes, forgot to add that tomatoes must be seasoned well, thanks!

If you have properly preheated your oven and stone, it really shouldn't take
any longer than 5 minutes. It's a 1/4 inch crust, so cooks really fast. The
one exception to this would be if the pizza has a lot of toppings on it, which
would give it a slightly longer cooking time.

-Suzin

I agree 100% with your recipe.... I would like to add:

It may take little longer than 5 minutes. To see if the pizza is ready
lift one side and check the bottom.

The crushed or finely chopped tomatoes can be seasoned with salt and
pepper. I like to add the chopped fresh mozzarella (well drained) after
about 2-3 minutes, and the fresh basil leaves when I remove the pizza
from the oven.

Ciao,

Anna Maria

www.annamariavolpi.com

On 31 Dec 2003 19:23:32 GMT, (CapnFntasy) wrote:

yep, I don't disagree with that. I love a good NY style pizza and have had some
chicago styles that, while I don't usually go for them, were very tasty.
Alls I was saying was that a lot of pizza here has been mutilated to the point
where it's understandable that the OP thinks it sucks, because it's mostly of
the Dominoes, Pizza Hut, etc. variety.

Well, the OP was making pizza batter (crust) and considering adding
anchovie paste to that. :-) Not to say this might not be an
interesting variation. What *is* pizza? Some kind of flatbread,
ranging from an inch-thick "deep dish" to a cracker...covered or
lightly sauced with tomato something or simply brushed with olive
oil...topped with one or a dozen combinations of veg, meat, and/or
herbs...with or without a wilderness of sliced or shredded cheese
things. The OP also complained about a lack of anchovies, which in
my experience are a commonly available topping.

I've been on an "authentic" crusade recently, which colors my views. I
have 3 data points (2 Beijing natives and one visitor) who prefer
Peking(sic) Duck in Palo Alto over that in the Home Country. I have
never traveled to renowned foodie sites outside the US (although I had
a lot of good food in London). I don't like being pushed into a
chauvinist corner, nor do I believe American-Italian, or -Chinese or
-Thai is equal to or "just the same as" the original stuff, but I fail
to understand how an Italian or Chinese or Thai cook immediately
begins cooking pale imitations once he/she steps onto US shores rather
than cleverly adapting local ingredients to ancient recipes.

I won't/don't want to defend the excesses of Pizza Hut, nor any fast
food chains that sell pop food coming from cans and plastic bags and
freezer cartons delivered on the Big Truck. What I object to is
wholesale condemnation of *everything* produced in the US as bogus.

Which you didn't, really. As long as we can agree that one doesn't
have to travel to Naples to have a good pizza-type meal, however
pleasant that might be, I'll try to smooth my feathers down. :-)

In article , Richard Periut
writes:

PENMART01 wrote:
Richard Periut writes:

My youngest one is more of a vegetarian.
I've never seen an 11 year old like greens and
salads so much.

Anyway, they both like the "pitzas", and it's more healthier than fast
food.


Um, "more healthier"?!?!? I sure hope that kid hasn't your genes...
probably was the UPS driver anyway, using your mail order Viagra

A pita loaf, skim mutz, and a tomato paste sauce is not healthier than
KFC and the like?

Geeze, you truely are an ignorant *******. Didja know that the average normal
human being uses 10% of their brain, but you only use 1% of your brain... and
your brain is only 10% as large as the average normal brain... meaning yours is
truly a pea brain... "more healthier"!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . .


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

Cool, I think we are in agreement then
There is definitely a ton of great "ethnic" food to be had in the States.
Adapting traditional food to a new environment and newly available produce is
of course going to happen, ie Italian-American, which is a very important and
great cuisine, but it's not Italian Italian. There are definitely a lot of
great authentic Italian places here though, of course. I just wish there were
more authentic Neopolitan pizzerias in my area though, there's not a one, and
it bums me out, makes me bitter

-Suzin

On 31 Dec 2003 19:23:32 GMT, (CapnFntasy) wrote:

yep, I don't disagree with that. I love a good NY style pizza and have had
some
chicago styles that, while I don't usually go for them, were very tasty.
Alls I was saying was that a lot of pizza here has been mutilated to the
point
where it's understandable that the OP thinks it sucks, because it's mostly
of
the Dominoes, Pizza Hut, etc. variety.

Well, the OP was making pizza batter (crust) and considering adding
anchovie paste to that. :-) Not to say this might not be an
interesting variation. What *is* pizza? Some kind of flatbread,
ranging from an inch-thick "deep dish" to a cracker...covered or
lightly sauced with tomato something or simply brushed with olive
oil...topped with one or a dozen combinations of veg, meat, and/or
herbs...with or without a wilderness of sliced or shredded cheese
things. The OP also complained about a lack of anchovies, which in
my experience are a commonly available topping.

I've been on an "authentic" crusade recently, which colors my views. I
have 3 data points (2 Beijing natives and one visitor) who prefer
Peking(sic) Duck in Palo Alto over that in the Home Country. I have
never traveled to renowned foodie sites outside the US (although I had
a lot of good food in London). I don't like being pushed into a
chauvinist corner, nor do I believe American-Italian, or -Chinese or
-Thai is equal to or "just the same as" the original stuff, but I fail
to understand how an Italian or Chinese or Thai cook immediately
begins cooking pale imitations once he/she steps onto US shores rather
than cleverly adapting local ingredients to ancient recipes.

I won't/don't want to defend the excesses of Pizza Hut, nor any fast
food chains that sell pop food coming from cans and plastic bags and
freezer cartons delivered on the Big Truck. What I object to is
wholesale condemnation of *everything* produced in the US as bogus.

Which you didn't, really. As long as we can agree that one doesn't
have to travel to Naples to have a good pizza-type meal, however
pleasant that might be, I'll try to smooth my feathers down. :-)