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Default Soup thickening

"SteveB" wrote

>I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
>wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different.


(hehe oh man, are you in trouble if she reads it worded that way!)

> The thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder
> had the same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> Wondra?


Cornstarch is one, another is to use arrowroot and for the 'broth' use bone
stock (consomme really).. Rice flour also helps.


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"cshenk" > wrote in message
...
> "SteveB" wrote
>
>>I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then
>>my wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different.

>
> (hehe oh man, are you in trouble if she reads it worded that way!)
>
>> The thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder
>> had the same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>>
>> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
>> Wondra?

>
> Cornstarch is one, another is to use arrowroot and for the 'broth' use
> bone stock (consomme really).. Rice flour also helps.



TIME and Simmering

According to Alton Brown (no I don't believe all he says) is takes quite a
bit of time (cooking) to eliminate the flour taste.

It all depends on how the flour was added

Slurry, Roux or sprinkled over sautéing food, or cold mixture of flour and
butter.

Dimitri

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SteveB wrote:
>
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?


Flour taste indicates the flour was not cooked enough, and probably
added late as just a flour / water mix. Make a roux seperatly and add
that to thicken the chowder. You still have to simmer it for a few
minutes to get the thickening, but since the roux is already cooked
separately there is less chance of having a flour taste.
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"SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas> wrote in message
news
>I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
>wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
>thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
>same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> Wondra?
>
> Steve


For corn chowder, two things: 1) cut the potatoes so that the edge
disintegrates into the chowder, and 2) partially puree the soup so that the
corn itself thickens it.


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On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:13:24 -0800, "SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas>
wrote:

>I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
>wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
>thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
>same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
>What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?


If your soup or gravy tastes floury, then you need to cook the roux
longer next time. You might also try mashed potato flakes to thicken
a creamy soup.

Tara


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Default Soup thickening

I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.

What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?

Steve

--
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere
critic-the man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly,
not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done."
Theodore Roosevelt 1891


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Default Soup thickening


"Tara" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:13:24 -0800, "SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas>
> wrote:
>
>>I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then
>>my
>>wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
>>thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had
>>the
>>same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>>
>>What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
>>Wondra?

>
> If your soup or gravy tastes floury, then you need to cook the roux
> longer next time.


That's what I was thinking. It's certainly true of gravy.


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Default Soup thickening

SteveB wrote:
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?
>
> Steve
>

A common method is to use a stick blender for a short time or just
remove a ladle or two and puree in the blender and reintroduce. If you
can taste flour it wasn't cooked. Make a roux separately (heat fat of
your choice, add flour, stir till cooked) and add it to the chowder.
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SteveB wrote:
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?


Barley is a great thickener.
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On Oct 18, 8:13�pm, "SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas> wrote:
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. �Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. �The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. �The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? �Cornstarch? �Wondra?


Commercially made soups/stews are usually artificially thickened,
almost always with some type of starch, matters not which. Better
quality soups/stews are thickened naturally by using more ingredients
other than additional starch. For instance, why thicken bean soup
with a starch slurry when the same thickening result can be obtained
and the soup produced would be so much better by simply using more
beans. With most soups and stews adding an artificial thickener is
cheating.


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"SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas> wrote in message
news
>I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
>wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
>thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
>same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> Wondra?
>
> Steve
>


None of the above.

You can thicken a bit with the starch in the potatoes, or you can make a
roux first and add the liquid to that. Or, you can eat it on the thin side.
Some of the best chowders I've ever had are not thick at all, just loaded
with flavor. There seems to be a fascination that thicker is better no
matter how bland the taste.





Turner's Boston Clam Chowder







INGREDIENTS:

8 pounds of clams, steamed.

Or substitute three 10 oz.
whole canned clams

2 cloves garlic, peeled and
crushed



1 stick butter



1 medium yellow onion,
minced

1 rib celery, minced



1/2 tsp white pepper

1 bay leaf

1/4 tsp whole thyme leaves



1/2 cup flour



5 1/2 cups clam nectar and
milk. (use the nectar from steaming and
make up the quantity needed by adding milk



3 small or 2 med potato,
peeled and cut into 1/4 inch dice



1 pint whipping cream



Wash clams and steam in a 12 qt stockpot. Reserve the broth.



Remove the clams from their shells and chop coarsely. Cover both items and
set aside



In the same pot sauté the garlic in the butter for about 3 minutes. Add the
onion, celery, pepper, bay leaf, and thyme. Sauté until the onions are
clear.



Add the flour to make a roux, stirring constantly. Cook over low heat for 5
minutes (don't brown).



Slowly add the clam nectar, stirring constantly to avoid lumps. Simmer for
0 minutes. The soup will be thick at this point so be careful that it
doesnot burn.



Add the potato and cook until tender.



Add the cream and clams and bring back to a boil.



Correct the seasoning.








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In article >,
"SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas> wrote:

> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?
>
> Steve


Floury taste means the roux wasn't cooked long enough. I don't thicken
my soup broths ‹ I like them liquid. Cooking barley in soup will
thicken the soup ‹ more than I like, so I cook the barley separately and
add it to the soup.

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, Thelma and Louise
On the Road Again - It is Finished
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SteveB wrote:
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?
>
> Steve
>


Pardon me if my failure to read every other post in this thread before i
reply causes me to reiterate this basic advice.

Cook the white flour in a pan by itself or with butter to make a roux to
thicken with. Roughly one tbs. of flour to one tbs. of butter for 1 cup
of milk or other liquid to thicken it.

Brining to a boil and then simmering a small dice of 1 small onion in
the cup of milk for about 15 minutes and then straining the milk before
you use it to thicken the soup is very good.

Combining flour with water to act as a thickener can result in a
'floury' taste. Cooking the flour is usually the answer to that
problem. Letting the flour darken a bit to produce what is called a
blond roux, as opposed to a white or brown roux which is just cooked a
correspondingly shorter and longer period of time, is a way to make sure
you have cooked off the 'raw' flour taste.

Cornstarch does not have the same flavor issue and a lot of people
prefer it to flour, but it gives me indigestion when used as a
thickener. But it is the easiest as it can be mixed with a bit of water
and added to thicken a soup or sauce.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
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SteveB wrote:
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?
>
> Steve
>

Cream? Cream fraiche?
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In article >,
George > wrote:

> SteveB wrote:
> > I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> > wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> > thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> > same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
> >
> > What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?
> >
> > Steve
> >

> A common method is to use a stick blender for a short time or just
> remove a ladle or two and puree in the blender and reintroduce. If you
> can taste flour it wasn't cooked. Make a roux separately (heat fat of
> your choice, add flour, stir till cooked) and add it to the chowder.


I personally prefer Arrowroot, or Cornstarch if I've none on hand.
Arrowroot gives a lovely finish.
--
Peace! Om

"He who has the gold makes the rules"
--Om

"He who has the guns can get the gold."
-- Steve Rothstein


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Default Soup thickening

In article >,
George > wrote:

> SteveB wrote:
> > I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> > wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> > thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> > same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
> >
> > What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?
> >
> > Steve
> >

> A common method is to use a stick blender for a short time or just
> remove a ladle or two and puree in the blender and reintroduce. If you
> can taste flour it wasn't cooked. Make a roux separately (heat fat of
> your choice, add flour, stir till cooked) and add it to the chowder.


Okra will also work. <g>
--
Peace! Om

"He who has the gold makes the rules"
--Om

"He who has the guns can get the gold."
-- Steve Rothstein
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SteveB wrote:
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had the
> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch? Wondra?



The folks who say that a floury taste means that the roux wasn't cooked
enough are correct, but in the 2 soups you mention, clam chowder and
corn chowder, I see no reason for a roux. They have potatoes as an
ingredient. Potatoes have starch. Just follow the recipe, toss some of
the cooked potato into the blender, and use that to thicken to soup. If
you don't want to dirty the blender, you can close to the same effect by
just mashing some of the potato particularly well.


As for a flavorful broth, there's a reason the French call soup stocks
the foundation of good cooking. I don't know what the restaurant used
for a soup stock, but from your description, it sounds like they used a
good one, maybe a from scratch long simmered chicken stock, maybe a
demiglace. For that matter, the stock and cream can add to the
mouthfeel and thickness of the soup.


--Lia

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"Pete C." > wrote in message
ster.com...
>
> SteveB wrote:
>>
>> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then
>> my
>> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether different. The
>> thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The restaurant chowder had
>> the
>> same consistency, but a much more flavorful broth.
>>
>> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
>> Wondra?

>
> Flour taste indicates the flour was not cooked enough, and probably
> added late as just a flour / water mix. Make a roux seperatly and add
> that to thicken the chowder. You still have to simmer it for a few
> minutes to get the thickening, but since the roux is already cooked
> separately there is less chance of having a flour taste.
>
>

I always make a roux separately, and add it as needed to the soup stock.
Make roux with one part flour to .8 parts olive oil by volume. Mix well in
small pyrex bowl and microwave on level 3-4 or so until the flour gets
"cooked", stirring now and then. It's done when you can't taste raw flour
and browned to your level of liking. You have to use a bit more olive oil
than you do on the stove. Cook at a low temp as the oil absorbs the m-wave
much more than water.






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SteveB wrote:
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder. Then my
> wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether
> different. The thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The
> restaurant chowder had the same consistency, but a much more
> flavorful broth.
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> Wondra?
> Steve

At the beginning of the chowder, after you have cooked the seasoning
vegetables (diced celery, onion and carrot) in a little oil until tender,
add a tablespoon of flour to the vegetables and allow the oil, vegetables
and flour to cook for a couple of minutes. Stir the flour into the tender
vegetables until they are coated with it. This way you will not get any
lumps in your cooking liquid. Add your cooking broth and potatoes, cook
until the potatoes are done, add the corn kernals last. Simmer until the
corn is tender, add any cream or half and half at this point, taste for
seasoning and heat until simmering. The tablespoon of flour at the
beginning keeps the cooking broth from having a watery consistency but does
not make the broth thick and gluey. Cooking the potatoes until done before
finishing the soup allows some of the potatoe to become part of the broth
and add thickening. Adding cream or half and half at the end also
contributes to a thicker broth.
Janet


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Mark Thorson wrote:
> SteveB wrote:
>>
>> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
>> Wondra?

>
> Barley is a great thickener.



Barley is great in vegetable and veggie beef soup/stews. It doesn't go well
with clam or corn chowder. The secret there is cooking the roux so it
doesn't taste like flour.

Jill



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SteveB wrote on Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:13:24 -0800:

> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> Wondra?


What's Wondra? I don't seem to have ever heard of it. A 1:1 mix of corn
starch and water works at the end (advantage: no added grease) but flour
must be cooked as in a roux to avoid its overpowering taste (adds fat of
course).



--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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Most "cramed" soups start with a roux. Melt two Tbs. of butter in a
saucepan add two Tbs of flour amd stir with a wisk or a fork until the
flour is "cooked". , but not brown (unless you're making a dark roux,
for gumbo or something similar). A LIGHT roux, such as you'd want for
clam or corn chowder just needs a minute or two of cooking to get the
raw flour taste out. Then add milk and keep stirring.

When the roux comes to a boil, it will get plenty thick. If it's too
thick, add more milk. Not thick enough, simmer a few minutes. Now add
your corn or clams or whatever.

Im guessing the "floury" taste your wife got was due to NOT cooking the
flour-butter mixture, or possibly she made a slurry of flour and milk or
water without cooking it at all.

If you're watching calories or fat, sometimes you can make the creamy
consistancy by pureeing some of the ingredients, then adding the puree
back to the pot. Bean soup, for instance. I made a nice cream of
broccolli soup using pureed cooked rice for a thickener.

It's getting be soup weather. hmmm. I think I'll make a pot of
something today.

LassChance

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"Lass Chance_2" > wrote in message
...
> Most "cramed" soups start with a roux. Melt two Tbs. of butter in a
> saucepan add two Tbs of flour amd stir with a wisk or a fork until the
> flour is "cooked". , but not brown


2 minutes! On a low simmer, constantly stirred. It takes two minutes to cook
the flour through.


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"SteveB" <toquerville@zionvistas> wrote in
news
> I went to a restaurant yesterday, and they had great clam chowder.
> Then my wife made some corn chowder today, and it was altogether
> different. The thick almost gravy broth had a flour taste. The
> restaurant chowder had the same consistency, but a much more flavorful
> broth.
>
> What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> Wondra?
>
> Steve
>


you can cook the flour in a little butter to remove the raw flour
taste....Or you can use instant potato flakes....Or actual mashed
potatoes. I use mashed potatoes a fair bit in soups.


Try this soup recipe

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

Vadalia Onion Chowder

Soups/Chowders/Stews

4 slices bacon -chopped bite sized; -not crumbled
2 tbsp olive oil; or use bacon fat
4 vadialia onions; sliced
2-3 cups mashed potatoes (leftovers); I used 3
4 cloves garlic; minced
2 boxes chicken stock (approx 30 oz)
2 cups corn kernels (I used 2 cans)
2 bay leaf; (optional)
1/4 tsp dried thyme
fresh ground black pepper; LOTS
salt to taste
sour cream; see note*

Fry the bacon crisp. drain well the bacon and reserve. (Used later.)
Heat oil in large pot. low medium to med heat.
Make the onions bite sized, add to pot, cook till tender, about 10 min.
Mince the garlic, add to pot, cook 1 minute or so more.
Add broth, potatoes, corn, bay leaves, thyme. Bring the soup to a boil.
Remove the pot from the heat. Remove the bay leaves. Season with pepper.
Add sour cream.
*Note add the sour cream just before serving by the tablespoon per bowl.
This freezes better without the sour cream.
Serve in soup bowls, and sprinkle crumbled bacon on top.
this recipe needs more garlic than called for.
Note: I just stirred the crumbled bacon in with the whole batch.
Don't be shy with the garlic.
I used some turkey Stock in with this (excellent.)
Used 5 or 6 sweet onions
6-7 potatoes served as mashed.
I Didn't have vidalia onions so i used locally grown sweet onions instead.
I added a grated carrot for colour.
I think some brocolli florets might be nice as well

Notes: Alan Boles


** Exported from Now You're Cooking! v5.84 **



--

The beet goes on -Alan



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Default Soup thickening

Lass Chance_2 > wrote:

> Most "cramed" soups start with a roux.


Not really. There are various ways to bind soups and sauces, and roux
is by no means the default. I posted about this before. See, for
example,
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/dcc7ede9851ada04>.

Clam chowder, which the OP had in mind, would not necessarily need any
additional binding, since the starch in the potatoes contained in the
soup may well provide enough of it. Whether any extra binding is needed
might depend on whether one prefers the chowder to be more creamy or
more chunky. Many traditional chowder recipes omit any extra binding.

Victor


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"Victor Sack"
> Lass Chance_2 wrote:
>
>> Most "cramed" soups start with a roux.

>
> Not really. There are various ways to bind soups and sauces, and roux
> is by no means the default. I posted about this before. See, for
> example,
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/dcc7ede9851ada04>.
>
> Clam chowder, which the OP had in mind, would not necessarily need any
> additional binding, since the starch in the potatoes contained in the
> soup may well provide enough of it. Whether any extra binding is needed
> might depend on whether one prefers the chowder to be more creamy or
> more chunky. Many traditional chowder recipes omit any extra binding.
>
> Victor


Both clam and fish chowders as made in Maine use the potatoes for
thickening. Once they are cooked, smushing some of them provides plenty of
starch. Both are also left to be eaten the next day, during which time they
thicken more from leached starches.
My mother would have fainted at the idea of putting flour into it or eating
it the day you cooked it.


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On Oct 19, 9:24*am, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> *SteveB *wrote *on Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:13:24 -0800:
>
> > What is a good combination for thickening soup broths? Cornstarch?
> > Wondra?

>
> What's Wondra? I don't seem to have ever heard of it. A 1:1 mix of corn
> starch and water works at the end (advantage: no added grease) but flour
> must be cooked as in a roux to avoid its overpowering taste (adds fat of
> course).
>
> --
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


James, Wondra (flour) has been around since 1963. You have probably
seen it at the grocery store a million times, but didn't notice it. It
is excellent for sauces and some thickening. It dissolves quickly in
liquids.I also use it for dusting some food.

Read about it at
http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/wondraflour.htm

http://www.generalmills.com/corporat...t.aspx?start=W
(last item on list)

GARY HAYMAN
Greenbelt, Maryland

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