On Apr 9, 11:49*am, Gregory Morrow
wrote:
The Golfer's Wife wrote:
On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:54:14 -0400, Dave Smith

wrote:
According to the author of "When a Crocodile Eats the Sun" Mugabe
was taking land from successful white farmers and giving it to
"veterans" of the civil war, many of whom were too young to have
even been around during the war, never mind being veterans of it.
They new owners would move in and chase off the farmers, not even
allowing them to harvest the crops that were ready to be reaped.
Then the did nothing to the land. *They did not farm it or even
build on it. They just didn't want the white farmers to have their
land. In some cases, the white farmers had bought the land from the
Zimbabwean government after the war.

They are the authors of their own misfortune. It is a seen typical
of a number of countries in Africa. *They were easily colonized
because the people were in no position to fight them, often having
so many tribal conflicts that they could not put up a united front,
never mind fight a modern army. *They prospered under white
development programs but seemed envious of the advantaged whites and
ended up seeking independence and black rule, and the common result
is oppressive governments, bribery and corruption, *a huge drop in
their economies and more suffering for the people.

Personally, I think we should take a lesson from the past. I live in
a country that thrived as a colony and made great advances. Most of
the major successful countries in the world share that background
and enjoy the benefits. The others had their chance and they blew
it. They deserve their current situation. *Since *they fought so
hard to remove white westerners from power and pushed them out of
the country I see no reason for westerners to bail them out.

All of the above is true, but wanting independence is natural
following colonization (i.e. USA). *The major problem with Africa is
that Western civilization (the colonizers) have over 2000 years of
experience to draw upon. *The native African states are less than 200
years out from exposure to any form of civilizing rule. * It is the
same in the Middle East. * You probably don't expect Iraq and Iran to
embrace Western-style democracy anytime soon, do you? * Those
countries would not know what to do with it any more than most African
states - and South Pacific island states also if it comes to it.

One has to remember that the colonizers of Africa (and India)
exploited the native peoples and removed immense amounts of wealth
from those countries. * In addition, South Africa set up a separatist
regime that denied the indigenous people the vote (disenfranchisement)
and passed laws so discriminatory that it took an international boycot
to force South Africa to dismantle it.

No excuses for what the African leaders have done to their respective
countries following independence - Zimbabwe in particular. * It is
timely to remember that that country was once divided into Northern
and Southern Rhodesia. *Rhodesia was named after Cecil Rhodes,
probably one of the most exploitive of all colonizers.

What, I suppose you think it was some sort of bucolic paradise before
the Brits arrived? *Think *again*...

Remember, the Africans treated each other *horribly* LONG before the
colonial powers arrived. *Who was it that sold their brethren into
slavery, frex...??? *And on what continent does human slavery not only
still exist, but is *thriving*...???

I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it sub-
saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?

For a look at what the right people and democratic government can
achieve in Africa, take a look at Botswana.

JB









I feel there should be *international support for reform in Zimbabwe
once Mugabe and his party are no longer in power. *While there is
understandable sympathy for those westerners who were pushed out
during that despot's term in power, it *would be somewhat spiteful if
those who could afford to make a difference (yes, Westerners probably)
were subject to lobbying to prevent such action.

You didn't mention what other world powers might be tempted to do in
that region of Africa should western nations continue to punish
Zimbabwe after Mugabe. * China and the major Eastern bloc (Russia eg)
might look at western disinterest as a *way to influence affairs in
Zimbabwe. * That would be a pity. * The country is not only
agriculturally fertile but there are also other natural resources like
minerals.

The Belgians absolutely pillaged the Congo (now Zaire), the British
(and Americans) systematically exploited Nigeria's oil (as they did in
Iran up to the mid 1950s) and one doesn't really want to revisit the
long drawn out *wars of *liberation from the French suffered in
countries like Algeria and Morocco. *

At this stage the *best* thing for Africa would be some sort of
*massive* die - back of the native African and Arab populations that
infest the place. *Then we superiour whites and Asians could go in,
repopulate, and make the place *thrive*...



And who says western-style democracy is to be emulated anyway?
Winston Churchill famously said that democracy was the worst form of
government except for all the rest.

Tell ya what, cupcake, go live in some place without "western - style"
democacry, e.g. Syria or North Korea or Cuba or Belarus or Burma and
*then* get back to us, okay...???

In any case, it sounds like one of yer hubbie's golf balls dinged you
right good in the head...

--
Best
Greg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Golden One wrote:


I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it sub-
saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?

Couldn't have put it better myself...

I've never visited the USA (although I have relatives there I've never
met lol) - and you don't see me spouting about US politics here even
though I've read a book or two about it and have access to CNN TV and
Google...

For a look at what the right people and democratic government can
achieve in Africa, take a look at Botswana.

So you've been to Botswana, have you? I have - twice, albeit over 30
years ago.

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy - who now lives in RSA (and has actually lived in Zimbabwe
too)

Monday is a lousy way to spend one seventh of your life.

Golden One wrote:



Remember, the Africans treated each other *horribly* LONG before the
colonial powers arrived. Who was it that sold their brethren into
slavery, frex...??? And on what continent does human slavery not only
still exist, but is *thriving*...???

I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it sub-
saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?

It is so widespread that you can have examples from any of those regions. Up
in the north you have the ongoing problem in Darfur. In the last decade or
so there have been problems in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ethiopia,
Somalia, Niger and Mali. Even in the countries that are not engaged in war,
there are bands of armed thugs roaming the countryside, usually the remnants
of a former army who steal and murder. There is widespread famine, not
because of flood or drought, but because it is not save for farmers to work
their fields or to get their crops to market.


For a look at what the right people and democratic government can
achieve in Africa, take a look at Botswana.

It does indeed have a fast growing economy, though it still lags far behind
the industrial world. It also has a rapidly decreasing average life span,
mostly due to a massive AIDS epidemic, with close to 30% of the country
infected with HIV. Count on that taking a huge bite out of their growing
economy.

Dave Smith wrote:
Golden One wrote:


Remember, the Africans treated each other *horribly* LONG before the
colonial powers arrived. Who was it that sold their brethren into
slavery, frex...??? And on what continent does human slavery not only
still exist, but is *thriving*...???
I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it sub-
saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?

It is so widespread that you can have examples from any of those regions. Up
in the north you have the ongoing problem in Darfur. In the last decade or
so there have been problems in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ethiopia,
Somalia, Niger and Mali. Even in the countries that are not engaged in war,
there are bands of armed thugs roaming the countryside, usually the remnants
of a former army who steal and murder. There is widespread famine, not
because of flood or drought, but because it is not save for farmers to work
their fields or to get their crops to market.


For a look at what the right people and democratic government can
achieve in Africa, take a look at Botswana.

It does indeed have a fast growing economy, though it still lags far behind
the industrial world. It also has a rapidly decreasing average life span,
mostly due to a massive AIDS epidemic, with close to 30% of the country
infected with HIV. Count on that taking a huge bite out of their growing
economy.


Dave,

Little bit of trivia about Botswana - 25 years ago a very close friend
of mine and his wife were very keen to go and work there, as there were
some very lucrative jobs that paid well (in US$). However, when he made
inquiries about moving there through their Embassy in RSA, he was
informed by an official at the Embassy that white men would be granted
work permits for 2 or 3 years at a time - but no permanent residence
would be granted - and although white woman were welcome to accompany
their spouses on these 'contracts', they would not be granted work
permits at all. Needless to say they didn't go when he found that out,
as his wife was not one of those 'anyone for tennis types'.. Things may
well have changed since then, I haven't bothered to contact their
Embassy find out shrug

Just out of curiosity, have you ever visited any African countries? If
so, I'd like to know which ones, because I haven't been further north
than Zambia myself..

If not, to you and quite a few other posters in this thread, I would
like to point out (with all due respect), that no matter how much one
does 'armchair research' about Africa as a whole, living in one (or
more) of the countries beats knowing what actually 'goes on' in those
countries hands down. From the two that I have lived in and the three I
have visited (I have also been to Mozambique and Zambia on vacations)
you'd be surprised about what is 'published' and what actually happens
can be two totally different things... I am pretty sure this applies to
most countries, including Canada and the USA.

That said, I do hope that Mr. Mugabe eventually gets officially
'ousted' as he *is* a tyrant (and that's being polite), but I am not
holding my breath... He's not gonna go without a fight, IMNSHO. The
damage he has caused is going to take decades to 'put right'. What a
waste of a great country - sigh. Scary what one human being can do,
isn't it?
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

Monday is a lousy way to spend one seventh of your life.

Dave Smith wrote in
:

Golden One wrote:


Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it
sub- saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?



No.


It is/was the *black* Africans.


All of them. ("Golden One". You're a complete idiot to ask for specific
tribes!!)


Have you been there? Have you served there? Can you give us evidence
that most of the blacks are no better than animals?

I mean to say, if the white man hadn't ever gone over there....... and
if we'd rocked up to their shores tomorrow....... they'd still be
running around naked, chucking rocks and spears at one another. Like the
blacks in my own country!!

Now they (Rhodesians) have the ability to take one of the richest
agricultural countries in Africa and put it on the world stage. And what
do they do??

They **** the country over.

They destroy it.


The only way it is ever going to get back to the way it was, is for them
to go back to the way it was under Ian Smith.




It is so widespread that you can have examples from any of those
regions. Up in the north you have the ongoing problem in Darfur. In
the last decade or so there have been problems in Rwanda, Sierra
Leone, Liberia, Ethiopia, Somalia, Niger and Mali.


In all of those countries you mention, bands of 'heros' run around using
machetes and hacking women, children, and anyone too slow, to death.


But the bleeding hearts don't see that.

And if they do, they try to justify it.


I see it for what it is. *Murder*.


And the black c***** responsible should be tracked, and terminated.




Even in the
countries that are not engaged in war, there are bands of armed thugs
roaming the countryside, usually the remnants of a former army who
steal and murder. There is widespread famine, not because of flood or
drought, but because it is not save for farmers to work their fields
or to get their crops to market.



I used to be quite passionate about Rhodesia....... but now....... my
opinion is, let the black *******s kill each other off till there's
hardly any left, then get the white farmers back in there and get the
country going again.

That is the *only* way that Rhodesia is going to survive.


--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


"Thirty seven years ago, a Quarter Master, nearly knocked me over as he
thrust an L1A1 SLR into my hands and bellowed, "Keep that Rifle in Tip
Top Order so you can Kill your Countries Enemies with it before they
Kill You. These days, I do not have to visit exotic overseas countries
as my Countries Enemies are seen wallowing around our seats of
government, they guzzle and cavort at the Public trough so deeply they
make Caligula and Nero look like Church choir boys."


Mr Ron Owen, 2000, in a letter to then Premier Olsen.

"Golden One" wrote
I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries,

Your ego must really need stroking if you feel the need to assume
that we do not know what anyone graduating elementary school
has to know. Oh, wait, you're Australian. Maybe then, you are
a genius in your own community.


some better than others.

Define better, white man.




** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Golden One" wrote


The nym you have chosen tells more about you than anything
you have to say.

Jaundiced, are you? Or just inordinately impressed with yourself?


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

ChattyCathy wrote:


Little bit of trivia about Botswana - 25 years ago a very close friend
of mine and his wife were very keen to go and work there, as there were
some very lucrative jobs that paid well (in US$). However, when he made
inquiries about moving there through their Embassy in RSA, he was
informed by an official at the Embassy that white men would be granted
work permits for 2 or 3 years at a time - but no permanent residence
would be granted - and although white woman were welcome to accompany
their spouses on these 'contracts', they would not be granted work
permits at all. Needless to say they didn't go when he found that out,
as his wife was not one of those 'anyone for tennis types'.. Things may
well have changed since then, I haven't bothered to contact their
Embassy find out shrug

Just out of curiosity, have you ever visited any African countries? If
so, I'd like to know which ones, because I haven't been further north
than Zambia myself..

I have never been to Africa, but my son went to Uganda to work when he was 19. His
cousin was running a small business there under contract to an aid agency to set up
corn coops. He asked my son to come and work for him because he could not find
anyone there that he could trust. Both my son and my nephew were shaken down by the
cops several times and my son once spent a day in jail because one of his employees
has been accused of stealing money from his sister. My nephew eventually packed it
in. He had been trying to teach western business ethics to Ugandans and it just
wasn't working.

My son almost stayed on. He had been offered a job with an NGO and when he asked
about the salary he was told "three", and since he was working for peanuts he
thought it meant $300 per month . It turned out that it would have been $3,000 per
month , US and tax free. However, it was also in the north, where there were
problems with a child army as well as bands of Amin's old supporters.



If not, to you and quite a few other posters in this thread, I would
like to point out (with all due respect), that no matter how much one
does 'armchair research' about Africa as a whole, living in one (or
more) of the countries beats knowing what actually 'goes on' in those
countries hands down. From the two that I have lived in and the three I
have visited (I have also been to Mozambique and Zambia on vacations)
you'd be surprised about what is 'published' and what actually happens
can be two totally different things... I am pretty sure this applies to
most countries, including Canada and the USA.

We had a bit of a scare shortly after my son went over. I read a newspaper article
about a grenade attack in the town where he was living. He had told us in a letter
that he had been spending a lot of time with some teachers in the town. The article
said that the attack was made on the home of a school teacher and that two men had
been at the school earlier in the day trying to sell some corn. And my son and his
cousin were two men in the town, who hung around with teachers and were in the corn
business.



That said, I do hope that Mr. Mugabe eventually gets officially
'ousted' as he *is* a tyrant (and that's being polite), but I am not
holding my breath... He's not gonna go without a fight, IMNSHO. The
damage he has caused is going to take decades to 'put right'. What a
waste of a great country - sigh. Scary what one human being can do,
isn't it?

It is typical that when there is a violent turnover in government, the new regime
tends to be just as bad as the previous one. When you have a country fuelled by
bribery and corruption, a lot of people profit from being on the side that gets to
accept the bribes. They don't take kindly to losing the chance to collect bribes
and controlling the lack market. Most people hear associate the problems in Uganda
with Idi Amin, but his replacement was not much better. Even Museveni has
credibility problems..Western countries were not thrilled to learn that millions of
dollars of aid money was used to buy him a personal jet plane.
..

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from PeterLucas contains these words:


I mean to say, if the white man hadn't ever gone over there....... and
if we'd rocked up to their shores tomorrow....... they'd still be
running around naked, chucking rocks and spears at one another. Like the
blacks in my own country!!

There's your mistake, thinking the colour of skin identifies matching
culture and history.

Not all Africans were hunter-gatherers when colonials arrived. . Before
white colonialisation, some African countries were sophisticated
societies. Far from running around naked throwing rocks, they were
building,engineering, mining, making tools and decorations with metal,
weaving and dying fabric to make clothes, and trading with other
sophisticated nations.

Since you have internet access, I suggest you use it to inform
yourself about Africa's history.

It might be a good idea if the various countries of the world would
occasionally swap history books, just to see what other people are doing
with the same set of facts. ~Bill Vaughan

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

Monday is a lousy way to spend one seventh of your life.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from PeterLucas contains these words:


I mean to say, if the white man hadn't ever gone over there....... and
if we'd rocked up to their shores tomorrow....... they'd still be
running around naked, chucking rocks and spears at one another. Like the
blacks in my own country!!

There's your mistake, thinking the colour of skin identifies matching
culture and history.

Not all Africans were hunter-gatherers when colonials arrived. . Before
white colonialisation, some African countries were sophisticated
societies. Far from running around naked throwing rocks, they were
building,engineering, mining, making tools and decorations with metal,
weaving and dying fabric to make clothes, and trading with other
sophisticated nations.

Since you have internet access, I suggest you use it to inform
yourself about Africa's history.

Janet.

Yep. Egypt is in Northern Africa, and was practicing pretty advanced science
while Peter's forbears were still in the stone age. (Assuming like most
Aussie's he came over on the British Prison Boats, and so in the BC was one
of those hairy Celts or Picts, or, even more likely, a Vandal.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Janet Baraclough wrote in
:

The message
from PeterLucas contains these words:


I mean to say, if the white man hadn't ever gone over there.......
and if we'd rocked up to their shores tomorrow....... they'd still be
running around naked, chucking rocks and spears at one another. Like
the blacks in my own country!!

There's your mistake, thinking the colour of skin identifies
matching
culture and history.



Not at all. It's from personal firsthand experience.

Look at Rhodesia now.

When the white man was there, beautiful and prosperous.

The blacks took over, and look what happened.


Look at all the African countries that are run by blacks. Tell me which
one is prosperous and above 4th world standard.



--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


"Thirty seven years ago, a Quarter Master, nearly knocked me over as he
thrust an L1A1 SLR into my hands and bellowed, "Keep that Rifle in Tip
Top Order so you can Kill your Countries Enemies with it before they
Kill You. These days, I do not have to visit exotic overseas countries
as my Countries Enemies are seen wallowing around our seats of
government, they guzzle and cavort at the Public trough so deeply they
make Caligula and Nero look like Church choir boys."


Mr Ron Owen, 2000, in a letter to then Premier Olsen.

On Apr 10, 12:15*am, "cybercat" wrote:
"Golden One" wrote

I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".
Africa consists of over 50 countries,

Your ego must really need stroking if you feel the need to assume
that we do not know what anyone graduating elementary school
has to know. Oh, wait, you're Australian. Maybe then, you are
a genius in your own community.

Really? One wouldn't know that by reading what is being posted here.
Post after post contains statements about "Africa". Perhaps with your
know-it-all attitude you can inform us exactly which countries in
Africa have which troubles.

If you are what passes for intelligent in your community, it is in
trouble.


some better than others.

Define better, white man.

Idiot. Go vent your spiteful spleen somewhere else.

JB


** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

On Apr 10, 12:16*am, "cybercat" wrote:
"Golden One" wrote

The nym you have chosen tells more about you than anything
you have to say.

Jaundiced, are you? Or just inordinately impressed with yourself?

** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

Exactly what is your problem, besides the fact that you are just a
nasty little bitch?

JB

On Apr 9, 6:27*pm, ChattyCathy wrote:
Golden One wrote:

I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it sub-
saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?

Couldn't have put it better myself...

I've never visited the USA (although I have relatives there I've never
met lol) - and you don't see me spouting about US politics here even
though I've read a book or two about it and have access to CNN TV and
Google...



For a look at what the right people and democratic government can
achieve in Africa, take a look at Botswana.

So you've been to Botswana, have you? I have - twice, albeit over 30
years ago.

Lived and worked in Botswana, Tanzania, South Africa, Zambia and the
Congo, on and off over a period of 8 years. I still visit Botswana
about once a year.

JB


--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy - who now lives in RSA *(and has actually lived in Zimbabwe
too)

Monday is a lousy way to spend one seventh of your life.

On Apr 9, 9:46*pm, Dave Smith wrote:
Golden One wrote:

Remember, the Africans treated each other *horribly* LONG before the
colonial powers arrived. *Who was it that sold their brethren into
slavery, frex...??? *And on what continent does human slavery not only
still exist, but is *thriving*...???

I have had a bit of a laugh at the huge blanket coverage in this
thread. This comment is not only pointed at you, but also all others
who keep spouting about conditions in "Africa".

Africa consists of over 50 countries, some better than others. Your
comment above about Africans treating each other horribly is
meaningless unless you are going to specify which Africans. Was it sub-
saharan Africa, western Africa, northern Africa?

It is so widespread that you can have examples from any of those regions. *Up
in the north you have the ongoing *problem in *Darfur. In the last decade or
so there have been problems in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ethiopia,
Somalia, Niger and Mali. *Even in the countries that are not engaged in war,
there are bands of armed thugs roaming the countryside, usually the remnants
of a former army who steal and murder. *There is widespread famine, not
because of flood or drought, but because it is not save for farmers to work
their fields or to get their crops to market.

For a look at what the right people and democratic government can
achieve in Africa, take a look at Botswana.

It does indeed have a fast growing economy, though it still lags far behind
the industrial world. It also has a rapidly decreasing average life span,
mostly due to a massive AIDS epidemic, with close to 30% of the country
infected with HIV. Count on that taking a huge bite out of their growing
economy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It also has a government that has widely spent its profits from the
Debswana diamond joint venture on schools and infrastructure, rather
than lining its own pockets. The government is also constantly
addressing the HIV problem with education programs, free retro-viral
drugs for anyone who will be tested and a countrywide program of
testing and treating pregnant women.

There is a no-tolerance policy against corruption, and in all the time
I have spent there I have never seen or heard of a bribe at in either
public service or private enterprise.

The point I was making is that not all of Africa is the same, Botswana
has a multi-party democracy with very little tribalism (what there is
is non-violent). The latter is perhaps because it is mostly a country
of immigrants, beginning about 8 to 9 hundred years ago.

It is one African country that a western person can live in without
feeling unsafe or deprived of the neccessities of life.

JB