In article .com,
John Kane wrote:

On Jun 8, 6:14 pm, Omelet wrote:
In article ,

Giusi wrote:
Omelet wrote:

I think it's Switzerland that requires every citizen to be armed and
know how to use one?

It's the most peaceful country on the planet.

Each qualified adult MALE has a gun and is trained to use it. That is
how they avoid having a standing army. And it is not as peaceful as you
think. They don't go to war but they do have crime.

How much?

You probably need to research it yourself but good luck. It is
difficult to get good comparison stats but
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index.html
is a good place to start.

In terms of violent crimes and gun crimes the rates when I last
looked, in the late 1990's, are much lower than those of the USA but
then all of the OECD countries have much lower rates. Even Canada
which is comparatively violent country is much lower than the USA.

Gun crimes, and I suspect defensive actions with guns are very low in
Switzerland, quite probably because every adult male is fairly well
trained in the use and dangers of guns [1]. IIRC even suicides by gun
are suprising low compared to other OECD countries. It appears that
guns are just a tool that one keeps in the closet until the invasion
happens, not something one carries around daily.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

[1] There is also the rumour that you have to pay for any ammunition
unaccounted for.

Thanks.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet wrote:
In article .com,
"-L." wrote:

Omelet wrote:

I have to travel and shop alone the majority of the time.

One more good reason to simply travel armed.

If this girl had been, maybe she'd still be alive.

And he might have just used her own gun on her, as well.

Oh please...

Do you seriously think some wimpy-ass 18 year old girl is going to be
able to get a shot off before a man takes her gun away from her?
Please indeed...




I've noted that most are too cowardly to address that issue.

Nope, just don't agree with it what-so-ever. I'd more than happy if
they banned guns altogether. The US is uniquely ****ed up with
respect to gun laws.

-L.

So you want everybody to be helpless against attackers that won't give a
flip about gun laws? Criminals don't obey gun bans.

It would make them a hell of a lot harder to get.


That is what makes them criminals.

The police are not obligated to protect you.
They are mostly the clean up crew.

I don't want the police to "protect" me. A cop is far more likely to
arrest me than protect me.


A Liberal is a Conservative that has never been mugged...

That's a uniquely assinine statement. Not only have I been mugged, I
have been raped too, and I also had the wonderful experience of
cleaning up the remains of a very good friend whose gun-safety-and-
responsibility-trained 13 year-old hunter son fatally shot himself in
the gut with her 9mm, which was stored in a locked cabinet and the key
was on her personal key chain. Her 17 year old son came home from
school and found him - smelled him before he saw him.

So go **** yourself. Better yet, shove your gun up your **** and pull
the trigger.

-L.

Dave Smith wrote:

John Kane wrote:
.

Gun crimes, and I suspect defensive actions with guns are very low in
Switzerland, quite probably because every adult male is fairly well
trained in the use and dangers of guns [1]. IIRC even suicides by gun
are suprising low compared to other OECD countries. It appears that
guns are just a tool that one keeps in the closet until the invasion
happens, not something one carries around daily.

People tend to point to certain ethnic minorities and recent immigrant
groups to account for their high crime rates. Switzerland has very tight
immigration laws. It just doesn't let them into the country.

Quite true. It's of course racist and not politically correct to point
that out, but the statistics do show the distribution of crime is not
exactly even. Then there is of course the question of whether it's who
you let in, or how "disadvantaged" they end up when they get here. If if
points out one thing, and something they are starting to realize in
Europe finally, it's that you can't just let them in and then ignore
them, you have to follow up to see that they are able to assimilate
properly.

Pete C.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:51:04 -0700, "-L."
wrote:


Omelet wrote:

I have to travel and shop alone the majority of the time.

One more good reason to simply travel armed.

If this girl had been, maybe she'd still be alive.

And he might have just used her own gun on her, as well.

Would she be more or less dead if she was killed with her own gun?


I've noted that most are too cowardly to address that issue.

Nope, just don't agree with it what-so-ever. I'd more than happy if
they banned guns altogether. The US is uniquely ****ed up with
respect to gun laws.

-L.
So then we would outlaw knives,golf clubs, football helmets, cars,
ect.?

In article ,
Pan Ohco wrote:

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:51:04 -0700, "-L."
wrote:


Omelet wrote:

I have to travel and shop alone the majority of the time.

One more good reason to simply travel armed.

If this girl had been, maybe she'd still be alive.

And he might have just used her own gun on her, as well.

Would she be more or less dead if she was killed with her own gun?


I've noted that most are too cowardly to address that issue.

Nope, just don't agree with it what-so-ever. I'd more than happy if
they banned guns altogether. The US is uniquely ****ed up with
respect to gun laws.

-L.
So then we would outlaw knives,golf clubs, football helmets, cars,
ect.?

You forgot pointy kitchen knives.

L. is obviously off her meds.
She used to be worth reading but lately, she's turned into a foul/potty
mouthed troll. If she keeps it up, she'll end up in many Bozo bins.

Real life dishes out enough abuse. We don't have to take it on usenet.
;-)

I'm perfectly capable of carrying on an honest debate without getting
nasty. There is just no point to that... and it's totally unnecessary.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 03:26:44 -0700, "-L."
wrote:



Do you seriously think some wimpy-ass 18 year old girl is going to be
able to get a shot off before a man takes her gun away from her?
Please indeed...

If she had been trained one of my classes, she would have be able to.

I'd more than happy if
they banned guns altogether. The US is uniquely ****ed up with
respect to gun laws.

It would make them a hell of a lot harder to get.
No, just more expensive.

I don't want the police to "protect" me. A cop is far more likely to
arrest me than protect me.
I would say Bull Shit, except I don't know why you would be arrested.

Not only have I been mugged, I
have been raped too,
May be if you had been armed these things would not have happen.
I worked as a decoy in the subways in Chicago, in the early sixties. I
was held up twelve times, resulting in twelve convictions. I was
armed.



and I also had the wonderful experience of
cleaning up the remains of a very good friend whose gun-safety-and-
responsibility-trained 13 year-old hunter son fatally shot himself in
the gut with her 9mm,
If it was accidental, he was poorly trained, my grandson was trained
to handle a gun and shoot at eight.
If it was suicide, he could have hung himself with sheets, or
overdosed with pills from the family med cabinet.

So go **** yourself. Better yet, shove your gun up your **** and pull
the trigger.

Oh that was real adult of you.

On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 19:30:10 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
Pope) wrote:


Sure. Let's see. The incidence of getting murdered in the U.S.
is 6 per 100,000.
It is 3.6 per 100,000 for firearms,Number 8 in the top 32 countries.
Average is 6.9
Google firearms murder rate.

Two to five times that of any civilized country,
Iran has one of the oldest in the world, check their stats.
but still way, way lower than many other causes of death such as
accidents, coronary disease and so on. And lower than the risk
in the U.S. one century ago.


Or take the time you'd spend at the
shooting range and use it for aerobic exercise instead.
Its more strength training.

If you're packing a piece
Having a weapon, lessens your chances of being a victim, not increase
your chances.

On Jun 7, 11:37 am, "jmcquown" wrote:
The thing is, this was a teenager. And sadly, her parents didn't teach her
these basic rules. Mine did. I feel for the family.


Hi all,

I live here in KC and she was abducted from my Target store. Just want
to clear one thing up. Yes, she was 18 and it was in broad daylight.
As for her family not teaching her the basic rules- He left the store
before her and waited on her. He ran up to her very quickly and she
fought back.
Not sure what else she could have done. How could she have known a
very normal looking guy in the parking lot who appeared to be also
just going to his car would RUSH her like that?
Do you recommend we never go to our car if there is ANYONE else in the
lot?

A.

On Jun 8, 5:23 pm, Patio Lemur wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:48:04 -0700, Haeresis Fascinetum





wrote:
On Jun 8, 4:45 pm, BOBOBOnoBO® wrote:
On Jun 8, 4:40 pm, Haeresis Fascinetum
wrote:

On Jun 8, 10:09 am, BOBOBOnoBO® fka Food Snob
wrote:

I just got this in a bulletin on myspace:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/ori...s_wamsley.html

Here is James Wamsley's myspace:
myspace.com/jamesvolcom

--Bryan, not apologizing for top posting

On Jun 8, 9:37 am, BOBOBOnoBO® fka Food Snob
wrote:

On Jun 7, 10:35 am, "jmcquown" wrote:

Scott wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Police Make Arrest in Kansas Teen's Death
Girl's Body Reportedly Found at a Missouri Lake
By MARIA SUDEKUM FISHER
AP
OVERLAND PARK, Kan. (June 7) - Police arrested a man in the abduction
and death of a teenager whose body was found Wednesday in a Missouri
park four days after she disappeared from a Kansas store's parking
lot.

-----

Do you think if they legalize prostitution ( I don't mean
street/corner prostitution) it will cut down on the number of rapes?

No. Rape is not about sex. First and foremost it's about forced power and
control over another person. Degradation and humiliation go right along
with it, hence the number of rapes that still go unreported.

But "power" and "degradation and humiliation" can be sexual turn-ons.
Inappropriate sexual turn-ons, yes, but the whole crock-of-shit line,
"Rape is not about sex," is promoted to make rape victims feel better,
and hopefully lessen the rape's effect on the victim's sexuality.
However well meaning, it is still bullshit.
I go so far as to say that any sexual intercourse that takes place in
a context of men being for more powerful than women is potentially
rape. That includes all sex that takes place in highly patriarchal
societies. In these societies, women have less power than the typical
12 year old girl in the West, and we think that guys who seduce 12
year old girls are horrible cads.

In parts of Africa they practice FGM*, which is meant to make
intercourse undesirable for women, thus transforming EVERY event into
rape. There, rape is the norm for sexual relations. Do you think
that when Nigerian men have sex with their mutilated wives, that it
"is not about sex"? You think that those guys aren't horny?

However much people don't like to admit it, rape is on the continuum
of normal human sexuality. That doesn't make it good, or even
acceptable. It is also "normal" to want to kill people who have upset
you, but we don't allow it, and for good reason. It is normal to want
to take your neighbors' food, dwelling, whatever too. We attempt to
socialize our children such that they do not do those things, by
instilling empathy and a sense of fairness. We don't always succeed.

Prostitution should be legal for ONE REASON, because our society,
which has, and continues to treat women as second class human beings,
has no moral authority to tell and individual woman what she may or
may not do with her own body. Telling women that they cannot use any
asset that they happen to have in consensual commerce continues that
patriarchal ownership paradigm. Those who think otherwise have a lot
in common with bin Laden and his folks.

In bonobo** societies there is no rape, and the females use their
sexual appeal to empower themselves, the nightmare scenario for all
the patriarchal religios, be they Taliban, or the guy in the Vatican.

*"The importance given to virginity and an intact hymen in these
societies is the reason why female circumcision still remains a very
widespread practice despite a growing tendency, especially in urban
Egypt, to do away with it as something outdated and harmful. Behind
circumcision lies the belief that, by removing parts of girls'
external genitals organs, sexual desire is minimized. This permits a
female who has reached the dangerous age of puberty and adolescence to
protect her virginity, and therefore her honor, with greater ease.
Chastity was imposed on male attendants in the female harem by
castration which turned them into inoffensive eunuchs. Similarly
female circumcision is meant to preserve the chastity of young girls
by reducing their desire for sexual intercourse."
--source:http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

--Bryan

Frustrated daddies
Pathetic old men
Keep tryin' to sell us
With love as a sin
We're all fu(king sick of pathetic old men
--The Bonobos- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What's up?

Is it rape week or something?

This is the first you've heard of it? Jeez, it's Friday.

I don't have a television specifically to keep me from hearing about
things like this.

You ever been concerned about the TV watching you whilst you're
watching it?


From time to time, when alone, I've been embarrassed when watching TV
because it's so dumb.

The first time that happened when I was eight.


-F

In article ,
Pan Ohco wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 03:26:44 -0700, "-L."
wrote:



Do you seriously think some wimpy-ass 18 year old girl is going to be
able to get a shot off before a man takes her gun away from her?
Please indeed...

If she had been trained one of my classes, she would have be able to.

I'd more than happy if
they banned guns altogether. The US is uniquely ****ed up with
respect to gun laws.

It would make them a hell of a lot harder to get.
No, just more expensive.

I don't want the police to "protect" me. A cop is far more likely to
arrest me than protect me.
I would say Bull Shit, except I don't know why you would be arrested.

Not only have I been mugged, I
have been raped too,
May be if you had been armed these things would not have happen.
I worked as a decoy in the subways in Chicago, in the early sixties. I
was held up twelve times, resulting in twelve convictions. I was
armed.



and I also had the wonderful experience of
cleaning up the remains of a very good friend whose gun-safety-and-
responsibility-trained 13 year-old hunter son fatally shot himself in
the gut with her 9mm,
If it was accidental, he was poorly trained, my grandson was trained
to handle a gun and shoot at eight.
If it was suicide, he could have hung himself with sheets, or
overdosed with pills from the family med cabinet.

So go **** yourself. Better yet, shove your gun up your **** and pull
the trigger.

Oh that was real adult of you.

Thanks Pan.

I was too disgusted to bother replying to her venom.
You made some very salient points.

I started learning gun handling at age 4.

It's too bad that L is too much of a coward to learn how to defend
herself. She'd rather be raped and mugged.

Sad.

Where do you teach?
Teaching gun handling is one of my long term goals when I retire from my
regular career.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article ,
Pan Ohco wrote:

Or take the time you'd spend at the
shooting range and use it for aerobic exercise instead.

Its more strength training.

He has no idea how tired I am after a 4 hour range session. ;-)

And soaked in sweat.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Dee Dee wrote:

On Jun 8, 5:21 pm, (Steve Pope) wrote:

[Zurich]

I've only spent a day there, but the uncontrolled scene of
users engaged in random violent vandalism around the needle
exchange center in a park in Zurich exceeded anything you'd
typically see in a park or public place in the U.S.

I assumed this was the result of some sort of "no arrest" policy,
but I don't really know.

I still reel at the thought of that scene. In the 70's we were
walking along the water, looking at the swans; I said, they're
something wrong here, I couldn't really put my finger on it. A few
minutes later I saw them shootin'-up, and passing the needles, all in
plain site. No problem. None were outrageously dressed or anything to
call your attention to them in that way. They weren't acting crazy or
outlandish. But I could've thrown-up, it really bothered me. As you
can see, it made quite the impression.

Yeah. In the situation I witnessed, there was also a muscular
strung-out dude shot-putting large pieces of construction rubble at
nothing in particular. Nothing you wouldn't necessarily see in urban
America, but it seemed clear this was a no-go zone for the cops.

Steve

On Jun 9, 1:03 pm, Haeresis Fascinetum
wrote:
On Jun 8, 5:23 pm, Patio Lemur wrote:



On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:48:04 -0700, Haeresis Fascinetum

wrote:
On Jun 8, 4:45 pm, BOBOBOnoBO® wrote:
On Jun 8, 4:40 pm, Haeresis Fascinetum
wrote:

On Jun 8, 10:09 am, BOBOBOnoBO® fka Food Snob
wrote:

I just got this in a bulletin on myspace:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/ori..._wamsley..html

Here is James Wamsley's myspace:
myspace.com/jamesvolcom

--Bryan, not apologizing for top posting

On Jun 8, 9:37 am, BOBOBOnoBO® fka Food Snob
wrote:

On Jun 7, 10:35 am, "jmcquown" wrote:

Scott wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Police Make Arrest in Kansas Teen's Death
Girl's Body Reportedly Found at a Missouri Lake
By MARIA SUDEKUM FISHER
AP
OVERLAND PARK, Kan. (June 7) - Police arrested a man in the abduction
and death of a teenager whose body was found Wednesday in a Missouri
park four days after she disappeared from a Kansas store's parking
lot.

-----

Do you think if they legalize prostitution ( I don't mean
street/corner prostitution) it will cut down on the number of rapes?

No. Rape is not about sex. First and foremost it's about forced power and
control over another person. Degradation and humiliation go right along
with it, hence the number of rapes that still go unreported.

But "power" and "degradation and humiliation" can be sexual turn-ons.
Inappropriate sexual turn-ons, yes, but the whole crock-of-shit line,
"Rape is not about sex," is promoted to make rape victims feel better,
and hopefully lessen the rape's effect on the victim's sexuality.
However well meaning, it is still bullshit.
I go so far as to say that any sexual intercourse that takes place in
a context of men being for more powerful than women is potentially
rape. That includes all sex that takes place in highly patriarchal
societies. In these societies, women have less power than the typical
12 year old girl in the West, and we think that guys who seduce 12
year old girls are horrible cads.

In parts of Africa they practice FGM*, which is meant to make
intercourse undesirable for women, thus transforming EVERY event into
rape. There, rape is the norm for sexual relations. Do you think
that when Nigerian men have sex with their mutilated wives, that it
"is not about sex"? You think that those guys aren't horny?

However much people don't like to admit it, rape is on the continuum
of normal human sexuality. That doesn't make it good, or even
acceptable. It is also "normal" to want to kill people who have upset
you, but we don't allow it, and for good reason. It is normal to want
to take your neighbors' food, dwelling, whatever too. We attempt to
socialize our children such that they do not do those things, by
instilling empathy and a sense of fairness. We don't always succeed.

Prostitution should be legal for ONE REASON, because our society,
which has, and continues to treat women as second class human beings,
has no moral authority to tell and individual woman what she may or
may not do with her own body. Telling women that they cannot use any
asset that they happen to have in consensual commerce continues that
patriarchal ownership paradigm. Those who think otherwise have a lot
in common with bin Laden and his folks.

In bonobo** societies there is no rape, and the females use their
sexual appeal to empower themselves, the nightmare scenario for all
the patriarchal religios, be they Taliban, or the guy in the Vatican.

*"The importance given to virginity and an intact hymen in these
societies is the reason why female circumcision still remains a very
widespread practice despite a growing tendency, especially in urban
Egypt, to do away with it as something outdated and harmful. Behind
circumcision lies the belief that, by removing parts of girls'
external genitals organs, sexual desire is minimized. This permits a
female who has reached the dangerous age of puberty and adolescence to
protect her virginity, and therefore her honor, with greater ease.
Chastity was imposed on male attendants in the female harem by
castration which turned them into inoffensive eunuchs. Similarly
female circumcision is meant to preserve the chastity of young girls
by reducing their desire for sexual intercourse."
--source:http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

--Bryan

Frustrated daddies
Pathetic old men
Keep tryin' to sell us
With love as a sin
We're all fu(king sick of pathetic old men
--The Bonobos- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What's up?

Is it rape week or something?

This is the first you've heard of it? Jeez, it's Friday.

I don't have a television specifically to keep me from hearing about
things like this.

You ever been concerned about the TV watching you whilst you're
watching it?

From time to time, when alone, I've been embarrassed when watching TV

because it's so dumb.

The first time that happened when I was eight.

Over the past several weeks I have watched the entire first season and
the first DVD from the second season of The Monkees.

-F

--Bryan

On Jun 9, 2:01?pm, Alexandra wrote:
On Jun 7, 11:37 am, "jmcquown" wrote:

The thing is, this was a teenager. And sadly, her parents didn't teach her
these basic rules. Mine did. I feel for the family.

Hi all,

I live here in KC and she was abducted from my Target store. Just want
to clear one thing up. Yes, she was 18 and it was in broad daylight.
As for her family not teaching her the basic rules- He left the store
before her and waited on her. He ran up to her very quickly and she
fought back.
Not sure what else she could have done. How could she have known a
very normal looking guy in the parking lot who appeared to be also
just going to his car would RUSH her like that?
Do you recommend we never go to our car if there is ANYONE else in the
lot?

Her parents will go to their grave wishing they had the IQ to teach
her not to go traipsing about ALONE. There was no way to know that
particular preditor was out there but it is absolulutely moronic not
to realize thsat preditors are always on the lookout for easy prey.
Had that poor girl been with even one friend the cowardly preditor
(and make no mistake about it, they are all cowards) would not have
chose her... he chose her for one reason and one reason only, she was
alone, and obviously alone. Hashing and rehashing all the what ifs is
nothing but mental masturbation... do not go alone!

Sheldon

On Jun 7, 11:37?am, Omelet wrote:
In article . com,





Sheldon wrote:
Police Make Arrest in Kansas Teen's Death
Girl's Body Reportedly Found at a Missouri Lake
By MARIA SUDEKUM FISHER
AP
OVERLAND PARK, Kan. (June 7) - Police arrested a man in the abduction
and death of a teenager whose body was found Wednesday in a Missouri
park four days after she disappeared from a Kansas store's parking
lot.

-----

These kind of preditor crimes are so senseless, and are so TOTALLY
preventable. Do parents these days have so much lower IQs than in the
past? WTF happened to the buddy system??? When I was a kid parents
just did not permit children to be outdoors alone, never! Even when I
was in the military the Buddy System was drummed into our heads
relentlessly... no one went anywhere off the ship alone... even to
dump garbage cans on a military pier you went as as team of two,
preferably four.. they wouldn't let you off the quarterdeck alone.

This young girl could not have been nearly so popular as the media
portrays or she'd not have been out to a mall all on her own.
Preditors will very rarely (like never) attack when there are two or
more... this is a dangerous world, no one should go traipsing about
alone, not the young, not the elderly, no one. These kind of crimes
are so ****ing preventable... and I've not heard even one law
enforcement official or newscaster mention a word about the Buddy
System... all are so low IQ it's pathetic... they're borderline brain
dead... and that unfortunate girl's father is a cop yet, not much of a
cop, certainly not much of a parent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, some are going to say people have a right to go
wherever they want alone... but yoose are imbeciles too... there's no
reward for being dead right.

Sheldon

I always go out with a partner.

Her name is S&W model 4043 with an extra mag in the pouch.

And a can of pepper spray.

Anyone for whatever reason zeroed in on you you'd never get to use
your arsenal, in fact the attacker would disarm you in a flash and
most likely use it on you... someone grabs you from behind and puts a
knife to your throat you ain't gonna do shit, well, you'd probably
shit your panties.

Going out shopping with a real live friend is the best protection
there is... an ounce of common sense is worth a ton of arsensal.

Did you know that Canada geese never eat together... they're always in
pairs and while one eats the other stands guard. I've tested this out
a thousand times, actually far more than a thousand times. Three
times a day I toss out two slices of bread. While one eats one slice
the other stays fully alert on guard. Then the other eats the second
slice while the former stands guard, fully alert... bristling!.
You'll never see two Canada geese at rest facing the same direction,
they each ALWAYS face exactly precisely 180 degrees apart, they always
watch each other's back. When they have young even other geese can't
approach. Canada geese are ferocious protectors of their life long
mate and their young. Canada geese are definitely better at
protecting their young than that ignorant hillybilly cop father (he
should be ashamed)... I can guarantee the only police work those
hillybilly cops are trained in is "hide behind the bushes speed trap
radar" and donut runs... how can a hillybilly cop have street smarts
when they don't even have streets. Only two reasons state troopers
wear big hats, to intimidate and to hide their pinhead. That cop
father needs to move, move far away... what a jerk, he even behaved
like a jerk on TV.. and you could tell he was a know-it-all tyrant,
the mother said nothing. The child is gone, the mother is in silent
dispair, the father is a jerk. I'm sure he's already hiding behind a
bush giving out speeding tickets left and right and sucking down
donuts. Within less than a year his wife will leave him.

Sheldon