I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.

I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
"high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.

I've purchased this brand and type of milk for months and months, and
it's never had this taste before. I thought it might be just one
particular carton, but both the cartons I had bought at the same time
taste this way.

I remember this unpleasant flavor once or twice before in milk at
various places. Any idea what causes it?

Thanks.

"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
m...
> I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
> 7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
>
> I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
> "high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
> have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
> didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.
>
> I've purchased this brand and type of milk for months and months, and
> it's never had this taste before. I thought it might be just one
> particular carton, but both the cartons I had bought at the same time
> taste this way.
>
> I remember this unpleasant flavor once or twice before in milk at
> various places. Any idea what causes it?
>
> Thanks.

Are you sure the date is november 7? Milk is dated 17 days from the day
it is bottled. So, it's too soon to have a November 7 date. Maybe they
misdated the carton...

OTOH, the composition of milk is highly variable depending on what the cows
have been eating and how much water the cow has been drinking. Different
types of hay can impart a different taste (and, uh, for those real trivia
buffs, a different smell to the ,uh, excrement.)

DRB--the daughter of a dairy farmer

As an old farm raised boy it is my recollection that the taste of milk
is directly related to the last time the bull paid a visit. One of the
erasons I no longer drink milk.

DRB wrote:
> "Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
>>7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
>>
>>I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
>>"high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
>>have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
>>didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.
>>
>>I've purchased this brand and type of milk for months and months, and
>>it's never had this taste before. I thought it might be just one
>>particular carton, but both the cartons I had bought at the same time
>>taste this way.
>>
>>I remember this unpleasant flavor once or twice before in milk at
>>various places. Any idea what causes it?
>>
>>Thanks.
>
>
> Are you sure the date is november 7? Milk is dated 17 days from the day
> it is bottled. So, it's too soon to have a November 7 date. Maybe they
> misdated the carton...
>
> OTOH, the composition of milk is highly variable depending on what the cows
> have been eating and how much water the cow has been drinking. Different
> types of hay can impart a different taste (and, uh, for those real trivia
> buffs, a different smell to the ,uh, excrement.)
>
> DRB--the daughter of a dairy farmer
>
>

"TwoTon" > wrote in message
...
> As an old farm raised boy it is my recollection that the taste of milk
> is directly related to the last time the bull paid a visit. One of the
> erasons I no longer drink milk.
>

Would this be so much of an issue today though? With multiple cows milk
being pooled in the bulk tank and with more and more of the cows being bred
AI?

DRB wrote:
>
> "TwoTon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > As an old farm raised boy it is my recollection that the taste of milk
> > is directly related to the last time the bull paid a visit. One of the
> > erasons I no longer drink milk.
> >
>
> Would this be so much of an issue today though? With multiple cows milk
> being pooled in the bulk tank and with more and more of the cows being bred
> AI?



IIRC, the cow doesn't even PRODUCE milk unless the
bull (or nowadays the vet's syringe) has paid a visit.

gloria p

"Puester" > wrote in message
...
> IIRC, the cow doesn't even PRODUCE milk unless the
> bull (or nowadays the vet's syringe) has paid a visit.
>
> gloria p

Well, that is very true <vbg>. Most farmer's go the artificial insemination
route these days, most doing it themselves--the vet usually doesn't do it.
Our herd is primairly AI bred.

I was wondering if maybe the fact that the bull and cow have a middle man
these days, so to speak, if that would have an effect on the taste thing the
other poster was talking about. My other thought was that since the milk of
all the cows in the herd is pooled in the farmer's bulk tank, that if one
cow's milk was off due to being in heat, that it would be diluted out.

DRB wrote:
>
> Are you sure the date is november 7? Milk is dated 17 days from the day
> it is bottled. So, it's too soon to have a November 7 date. Maybe they
> misdated the carton...
>


Ahhh, but what *year*???

Best regards, ;-)
Bob

>a kind of
>"high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
>have to make it go down better.

Perhaps you ate an artichoke before sipping the milk?

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:34:16 GMT, "DRB" > wrote:

>
>"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
om...
>> I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
>> 7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
>>
>> I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
>> "high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
>> have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
>> didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.
>>
>> I've purchased this brand and type of milk for months and months, and
>> it's never had this taste before. I thought it might be just one
>> particular carton, but both the cartons I had bought at the same time
>> taste this way.
>>
>> I remember this unpleasant flavor once or twice before in milk at
>> various places. Any idea what causes it?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
>Are you sure the date is november 7? Milk is dated 17 days from the day
>it is bottled. So, it's too soon to have a November 7 date. Maybe they
>misdated the carton...

The organic milk always seems to have a much longer expiration date
than the normal kind. Usually seems like 3 weeks or more... And it
really does seem to last that long in my experience.

>OTOH, the composition of milk is highly variable depending on what the cows
>have been eating and how much water the cow has been drinking. Different
>types of hay can impart a different taste (and, uh, for those real trivia
>buffs, a different smell to the ,uh, excrement.)

Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I was just surprised, after
having enjoyed so many months with the same good taste, that I
experienced this sudden shift for the much worse...ugh.

>DRB--the daughter of a dairy farmer
>

On 09 Oct 2003 23:16:32 GMT, (WardNA) wrote:

>>a kind of
>>"high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
>>have to make it go down better.
>
>Perhaps you ate an artichoke before sipping the milk?

Never liked artichokes much.

Akilesh Ayyar wrote:
> Never liked artichokes much.


This might be an area to explore, though. When you first asked the
question, I couldn't think of anything that would affect the taste of
the milk except its going bad. I was interested in the answers. When I
saw the artichoke suggestion, I thought that might be it. Milk is one
of those things that tastes very different depending on what you've had
just before it. Toothpaste, juice, salt, all make a difference in how
milk tastes.

Also, milk seems to absorb flavors from refrigeration and its
surroundings more than many other foods. I can't explain the sweet
taste, but I do wonder if maybe the organic farm exposes the milk to
more barnyard smells than the big factory dairy.

--Lia

Akilesh Ayyar wrote:

> I remember this unpleasant flavor once or twice before in milk at
> various places. Any idea what causes it?


because milk is an ingredient... not a beverage...

~john!

Well shucks, now you got me. That old bull must be straining it pretty
thin or not eating enough celery or something.... A mystery. A
barnyard gangbang maybe?

DRB wrote:
> "TwoTon" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>As an old farm raised boy it is my recollection that the taste of milk
>>is directly related to the last time the bull paid a visit. One of the
>>erasons I no longer drink milk.
>>
>
>
> Would this be so much of an issue today though? With multiple cows milk
> being pooled in the bulk tank and with more and more of the cows being bred
> AI?
>
>

"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:34:16 GMT, "DRB" > wrote:
>
> >
> The organic milk always seems to have a much longer expiration date
> than the normal kind. Usually seems like 3 weeks or more... And it
> really does seem to last that long in my experience.

Hmm. To me, it doesn't seem to make much sense. I have the whole farm
background, undergrad degree in biology, and now I'm working on my Ph.D...
The majority of my Ph.D research is on the properties of milk, particularly
the antimicrobial properties. Organic milk still comes from cows... The only
difference is that the cows are fed organic food stuffs and do not receive
bst. Those two factors are going to have no effect in extending shelf life.
Also, IIRC, fresh milk is all going to have to be dated the same. Also, I
had to get some milk tonight. I don't get the organic stuff, but I looked
at the dates on it. None of it was dates any further out than the regular
milk.

Are you sure this wasn't the UHT (ultra high temp pasteruized) milk? UHT
milk has a much longer shelf life, and also a tendency to be off in flavor
sometimes.


DRB

"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
m...
> I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
> 7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
>
> I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
> "high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
> have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
> didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.

I'm not sure what "organic" means to milk. It may have been from cows
eating some weird stuff that gives an odd flavor. Most milks are doctored
up with all sorts of crud from vitamins to fish oil. Perhaps as long as it
is organic, it may have been added to yours as well.

I enjoy many dairy products, butter cheese, ice cream etc. but I despise
drinking a glass of mild. Been that way for the past 50+ years.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:5Hmhb.724239$uu5.120502@sccrnsc04...
> Akilesh Ayyar wrote:
> > Never liked artichokes much.
>
>
> This might be an area to explore, though. When you first asked the
> question, I couldn't think of anything that would affect the taste of
> the milk except its going bad. I was interested in the answers. When I
> saw the artichoke suggestion, I thought that might be it. Milk is one
> of those things that tastes very different depending on what you've had
> just before it. Toothpaste, juice, salt, all make a difference in how
> milk tastes.
>
> Also, milk seems to absorb flavors from refrigeration and its
> surroundings more than many other foods. I can't explain the sweet
> taste, but I do wonder if maybe the organic farm exposes the milk to
> more barnyard smells than the big factory dairy.
>

The difference in the taste comes from what kind of hay/ grass the cows have
been eating. They eat something bitter, the milk can be bitter. They eat a
sweeter grass, the milk will be sweeter.

Also, no matter what the dairy situation, the milk isn't going to be exposed
to "smells". in the United States, only grade A dairies can sell fluid milk
for human consumption. Whatever the operation, to be a grade A dairy, the
milk has to be handled in very specfiic ways. The cows are milked
(painlessly, for you fanatical peta types) with mechanical milkers. The
milkers are all hooked into a central pipe system, pipes are stainless
steel. Milk is transferred to the stainless steel milk tank, where it's
picked up at least every other day and taken to the processing plant where
it's bottled. There isn't a chance, no matter what the operation, for the
milk to acquire a barn yard taste. The regulations are too tight and
strict. Organic dairies may feed their cows different, but they're going to
have to play by the same rules and regulations when it comes to getting the
milk out of the cow and to market. These are very strict, complete with
suprise inspections. Every bulk tank a farmer sends to market--whther
organic or not--is tested for antibiotics, etc. Get caught with
antibiotics... pay hefty fines... Dairy not clean enough? You get
downgraded to grade "B", and only grade A dairies can sell fluid milk.

Also, as a point of barnyard smell, the smaller dairies--organic or not, not
all small dairies are organic and there are some huge dairies that are
organic...Organic does not equal small operation--are most likely going to
smell a whole hellluva lot better. My families dairy is small, but not
organic, and it pretty much doesn't smell. Now, those commercial dairies..
..yick... nasty... smelly. 50 cows in one place vs. 10,000 cows in one
place... you decided which is going to smell better....

DRB--The daughter of a dairy farmer

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
> m...
> > I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
> > 7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
> >
> > I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
> > "high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
> > have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
> > didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.
>
> I'm not sure what "organic" means to milk. It may have been from cows
> eating some weird stuff that gives an odd flavor. Most milks are doctored
> up with all sorts of crud from vitamins to fish oil. Perhaps as long as
it
> is organic, it may have been added to yours as well.


fish oil? that's one I haven't heard of... and I've been around the dairy
industry... Of course, my end is helping take care of the cows, and my
research now. Can't say I've spent much time in the processing plant. I
knew the vitamens were added? But fish oil?

For organic milk, the cows have to be fed organic feedstuffs (ie. crops that
were grown without pesticides), and no bst.

Cows though, will eat a lot of stuff... I've never seen any growing plant
that they wouldn't eat... We--I say we as if I still live at home..--have
to be really careful on what kind of shrubery (sp) that is used in the
landscaping. Certain plants, one being some sort of japanese something or
another--can be deadly toxic. One tiny little needle could kill a full
grown cow.

The cows have a tendency to break out from time to time.. .or more likely,
the kid who works for my dad forgets to shut the gate with great regularity.
Once, they ate a good chunk of mom's (non-toxic) shrubs... They once foraged
on a sapling that had just been planted in the back yard. We weren't sure
if the tree would make it, but amazingly it did...

At least they're not as bad as goats or toddler humans...

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:29:48 GMT, "DRB" > wrote:

>
>"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 21:34:16 GMT, "DRB" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> The organic milk always seems to have a much longer expiration date
>> than the normal kind. Usually seems like 3 weeks or more... And it
>> really does seem to last that long in my experience.
>
>Hmm. To me, it doesn't seem to make much sense. I have the whole farm
>background, undergrad degree in biology, and now I'm working on my Ph.D...
>The majority of my Ph.D research is on the properties of milk, particularly
>the antimicrobial properties. Organic milk still comes from cows... The only
>difference is that the cows are fed organic food stuffs and do not receive
>bst. Those two factors are going to have no effect in extending shelf life.
>Also, IIRC, fresh milk is all going to have to be dated the same. Also, I
>had to get some milk tonight. I don't get the organic stuff, but I looked
>at the dates on it. None of it was dates any further out than the regular
>milk.
>
>Are you sure this wasn't the UHT (ultra high temp pasteruized) milk? UHT
>milk has a much longer shelf life, and also a tendency to be off in flavor
>sometimes.

Ahh, yup. You caught it. It is indeed ultra-pasteurized. Why does that
affect the taste? Is the taste difference I experienced the kind of
difference UHT usually produces?

>
>DRB
>

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:03:14 GMT, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

>Akilesh Ayyar wrote:
>> Never liked artichokes much.
>
>
>This might be an area to explore, though. When you first asked the
>question, I couldn't think of anything that would affect the taste of
>the milk except its going bad. I was interested in the answers. When I
>saw the artichoke suggestion, I thought that might be it. Milk is one
>of those things that tastes very different depending on what you've had
>just before it. Toothpaste, juice, salt, all make a difference in how
>milk tastes.

Can't *think* of anything special I had eaten before it... hrm.

>Also, milk seems to absorb flavors from refrigeration and its
>surroundings more than many other foods. I can't explain the sweet
>taste, but I do wonder if maybe the organic farm exposes the milk to
>more barnyard smells than the big factory dairy.

What caught me off-guard was that this had never happened before. I
had never tasted anything odd about the milk previously, so I don't
think its exposure on an organic farm would normally cause
problems...Plus, I had tasted this once before with normal milk in a
restaurant somewhere.

>--Lia

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:35:55 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
om...
>> I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
>> 7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
>>
>> I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
>> "high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
>> have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
>> didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.
>
>I'm not sure what "organic" means to milk. It may have been from cows
>eating some weird stuff that gives an odd flavor. Most milks are doctored
>up with all sorts of crud from vitamins to fish oil. Perhaps as long as it
>is organic, it may have been added to yours as well.

Fish oil!? I hope they list that on the ingredients somewhere

>I enjoy many dairy products, butter cheese, ice cream etc. but I despise
>drinking a glass of mild. Been that way for the past 50+ years.
>Ed

>http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>
>

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:14:45 -0400, levelwave >
wrote:

>Akilesh Ayyar wrote:
>
>> I remember this unpleasant flavor once or twice before in milk at
>> various places. Any idea what causes it?
>
>
>because milk is an ingredient... not a beverage...

Like an ingredient in "cookies and milk"?

>~john!

"Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:29:48 GMT, "DRB" > wrote:
>
>>
> Ahh, yup. You caught it. It is indeed ultra-pasteurized. Why does that
> affect the taste? Is the taste difference I experienced the kind of
> difference UHT usually produces?

I'm not sure exactly why the high temp affects taste--i'm more into
antimicrobial and production qualities, not how the milk is
packaged/handled. Milk has sugar (lactose) and many proteins (caseins,
etc.). My guess is that these proteins are denatured by the high temp.

Typically, when it comes to UHT milk, most people complain of it tasting
cooked.

Your milk tasted, sweet, correct? Was this a newly opened package, or had
it been open for awhile? If it had been open for awhile, you could have
picked up odors from the fridge, or maybe it was overpopulated with
bacteria. While UHT kills all bacteria at packaging, once that carton is
open, it's just as susceptible to bacterial contamination as non UHT milk.

My other thought is if it's new, it picked up an off taste from the
packaging. Maybe the manufacturer's cartons were changed...

Hopping in here as a newbie.... With Ultra High Temperature
pasturization, the milk is closer to being "cooked". Since you probably
haven't had milk that's been boiled as an unflavored beverage, or canned
evaporated milk, for that matter.... you didn't recognize the taste.

I recall as a kid in the=== um=== 1950s, that our local small dairy
operation would have a few days in the spring almost every year when the
milk tasted of the wild onions the cows had been munching on. Now That
was Gross!

Human milk will also pick up food flavors. Back in the early 1960s when
breast feeding was just coming back a bit, we were to counsel newly
breast feeding moms that their babies might reject nursing for a day
after they ate asparagus! And I've known young moms who would take a
glass of wine before nursing the babe right before dinner to assure a
quiet, uninterupted meal.... Not that I'd recommend that....

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
news
> On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:45:52 -0700, TwoTon >
> wrote:
>
> >As an old farm raised boy it is my recollection that the taste of milk
> >is directly related to the last time the bull paid a visit. One of the
> >erasons I no longer drink milk.
>
> Nowdays they keep the girl cows away from the boy cows. Heck, I'm not
> even sure they have fully functioning milk cows anymore. I figgered
> they have some sort of milk factory with justt utters growing out of
> large test tubes.
>
> Scarry thought, eh?
>
> -sw

Science is no where near that point... They still have real cows. Real
cows... that like to break out in the middle of the night... that have to be
fed..when you want to go the ball game or hang out with your friends.
Calves that want to be fed when you want to sleep in... Milk barns that
have to be washed after the nightly milking, when you'd rather watch a
movie... *launches into memories, sweet memories*

For the most part, most cows are bred with AI. Much better control over the
genetics. Farmers are able to make much better breeding decisiions, and the
cows keep getting better and better. When I look back at the Guernsey
breeders journal from even just 10-15 years ago, and compare to what the
cows look like now... I'm blown away. They're so much more correct
(unimportant to most of you, but they're "pertier" to look at).

Also, bulls are dangerous. Most people would not want one around, unless
they could help it. We have a bull from our best cow ever, and he's a
handful. He's "syndicated" which means he's in the testing stage. They
sample, the uh, goods, and people bred up the first batch. When those
animals are born, the daughters traits are looked at--milk productions,
body, etc. Even "calving ease"--the offspring of some bulls tends to be
smaller than others. This makes it ideal for younger animals. Then, the
bull is ranked... Then, they do this on another round of daughters. Then
the bull has his "official" rankings, I suppose you'd say...

The last I time I was home, the bull had just destroyed a decently strong
wooden fence.. we're talking like he took out 30 yards of fence in one "at
bat".... mom and dad said they just kind of watched in amazement.

Also, you always here about the horror stories--being charged by the bull,
etc. People do get hurt--sometimes very badly. From the people point of
view, it's much safer.

at Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:53:12 GMT in <de56271e.0310091253.a8aef61
@posting.google.com>, (Akilesh Ayyar) wrote :

>I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
>7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
>
>I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
>"high-pitched sweetness,"...

November 7 = Ultra-Pasteurized. This is one of the most insidious trends in
milk in recent years that seems to have been passed right under consumers'
noses. A very great majority of milk these days is ultra-pasteurized,
mostly because it means the milk won't spoil for *much* longer.

But "spoiled" is a distinctly relative term. Ultra-pasteurizing is a
technique that exposes the milk to very high temperatures, well in excess
of 200F, for a supposedly short period of time. However, in the process, it
alters the flavour of the milk, essentially by cooking some of the proteins
and (possibly) caramelizing sugars as well. A lot of ultra-pasteurized milk
tastes sweet in the weird way you describe, very unnatural as opposed to
the sweetness of good, fresh milk. As far as I'm concerned, ultra-
pasteurized milk is "pre-spoiled for your convenience".

I find it bordering on unethical that dairies adopted these practices
without informing the consumers. I also find it distressing that so few
consumers appear to notice, much less care. There seems to be an assumption
that sets in that "milk is milk" - a commodifying attitude that lets the
producers get away with a maximum of quality reduction in the name of
improving profitability through increased shelf life, more rugged transport
characteristics, ability to divert high-profit milkfat into more profitable
products, etc. In Kentucky, I was astonished to discover that what was
passing for "whole" milk back there had a milkfat content of 3.2% ! That's
not even close to whole milk in my book. Given that it was ultra-
pasteurized as well, why not just add white dye to water and sell it as
milk?

Worse, because of the trends, a generation is growing up with no concept of
what quality milk can and should taste like. I suspect many kids imagine
that milk is nothing more than a bland, insipid white liquid. A good,
unhomogenized, raw, whole (5% milkfat) milk is a sensuous thing - smooth,
rich, with an almost candy-like sweetness (no, not an artificial/chemical
flavour), and nuances of the fields the cows grazed in. In fairness perhaps
to demand truly raw milk is putting unrealistic restrictions on milk
producers, but could they not at least use LTLT (low-temperature, long-
time) pasteurization? In this technique, the milk is only subjected to
relatively mild heating (140-160F) for a rather longer time. The gentler
process minimizes the change in flavour.

As you can tell, you've stumbled upon one of my pet peeves...


--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

DRB > wrote:
> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>> "Akilesh Ayyar" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> > I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
>> > "high-pitched sweetness," the kind of sickly sweetness medicine might
>> > have to make it go down better. Not good at all. But then the milk
>> > didn't seem lumpy or terribly sour or in any other way bad.

Someone else has already mentioned that the milk may now be UHT treated
milk (any milk that's UHT rather than pasteurised must be labelled as
such in Australia). That could account for it.

>> I'm not sure what "organic" means to milk. It may have been from cows
>> eating some weird stuff that gives an odd flavor. Most milks are doctored
>> up with all sorts of crud from vitamins to fish oil. Perhaps as long as
>> it is organic, it may have been added to yours as well.

One of the insidious practices in one local brand of milk though is the
addition of soy and lecithin to replace some of the milk's natural cream
content. The result is an initially smoother and slightly sweeter tasting
milk but with a sort of slightly grainy aftertaste. At least ingredients
lists are fairly comprehensive here though.

One of the bizarre side-effects of the proliferation of modified brands
though has been that the switch I made from fresh milk to powdered milk
(a 100% powdered full cream milk brand with no crappy soy filler) was a
lot less troublesome than I was expecting :-).

> fish oil? that's one I haven't heard of... and I've been around the dairy
> industry... Of course, my end is helping take care of the cows, and my
> research now. Can't say I've spent much time in the processing plant. I
> knew the vitamens were added? But fish oil?

There are an increasing number of products being sold in Australia being
sold with Canola Oil as an ingredient; primarily as a marketing gimmick
so they can state that there's more Omega 3 and so it's allegedly better
for the heart. Products contaminated this way are generally well
labelled though :-).

In article >, "Edwin
Pawlowski" > wrote:


> I enjoy many dairy products, butter cheese, ice cream etc. but I despise
> drinking a glass of mild. Been that way for the past 50+ years.


Same with me. Once I reached adulthood I've always preferred the strong.


:-)


Seriously, for me, and many others, a glass of milk causes digestive
difficulties, whereas other dairy products do not.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

In article > , "DRB"
> wrote:


> other poster was talking about. My other thought was that since the milk of
> all the cows in the herd is pooled in the farmer's bulk tank, that if one
> cow's milk was off due to being in heat, that it would be diluted out.


I know that humans are different than other animals, but I was surprised
to read the above. Humans generally are not fertile while lactating. My
wife went for five years without having a normal monthly cycle, due to a
combination of lactation and pregnancy.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

(Dan Abel) wrote in message >...
> In article > , "DRB"
> > wrote:
>
>
> > other poster was talking about. My other thought was that since the milk of
> > all the cows in the herd is pooled in the farmer's bulk tank, that if one
> > cow's milk was off due to being in heat, that it would be diluted out.
>
>
> I know that humans are different than other animals, but I was surprised
> to read the above. Humans generally are not fertile while lactating. My
> wife went for five years without having a normal monthly cycle, due to a
> combination of lactation and pregnancy.

You really didn't know that? I guess coming from a farm background,
it's sometimes easy to forget what the "civilian" knowledge is. Cows
cycle while lactating, even while lactating at pretty high amounts. A
cows gestation period is within a couple of days of the human one.
The cows milk up until about 2 months before they calve. Sometimes
though, my dad will dry a cow off earlier than that though, if she's
just not milking good anymore.

OTOH, my Ph.D research is with goats. They have to be dried off
completely before they can be bred again.

DRB

P.S. I'm posting from my google account, and I can't remember what I
have in my name field. So, I have no idea what name is going to show
up...

Dan Abel wrote:

> I know that humans are different than other animals, but I was surprised
> to read the above. Humans generally are not fertile while lactating. My
> wife went for five years without having a normal monthly cycle, due to a
> combination of lactation and pregnancy.

There is a name for babies born because people think a nursing mother
can't get pregnant. Sorry, I forget what the name is, but I sure
wouldn't rely on nursing as birth control.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > I know that humans are different than other animals, but I was surprised
> > to read the above. Humans generally are not fertile while lactating. My
> > wife went for five years without having a normal monthly cycle, due to a
> > combination of lactation and pregnancy.
>
> There is a name for babies born because people think a nursing mother
> can't get pregnant. Sorry, I forget what the name is, but I sure
> wouldn't rely on nursing as birth control.
>
> nancy

The name is result of unwanted pregnancy. (

(Alex Rast) wrote in message >...
> at Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:53:12 GMT in <de56271e.0310091253.a8aef61
> @posting.google.com>, (Akilesh Ayyar) wrote :
>
> >I bought some organic skim milk recently, supposed to expire November
> >7. I sampled a little bit and it tasted funny.
> >
> >I can't describe it any better than to say it had a kind of
> >"high-pitched sweetness,"...
>
> November 7 = Ultra-Pasteurized. This is one of the most insidious trends in
> milk in recent years that seems to have been passed right under consumers'
> noses. A very great majority of milk these days is ultra-pasteurized,
> mostly because it means the milk won't spoil for *much* longer.

UP and UHT are two different things. When I get home, I'll pull up
the reference from pubmed.


> I find it bordering on unethical that dairies adopted these practices
> without informing the consumers.

Just to clarify, it's the bottlers/processors--not the dairies
themselves. Most farmers these days sell their milk to milk co-op (we
sell to Dean food, mid america dairyme, ampi, etc.), which sales it to
a processor. Milk is picked up at the farm and when the truck is
full, the thing is taken directly to the processor.

I also find it distressing that so few
> consumers appear to notice, much less care. There seems to be an assumption
> that sets in that "milk is milk" - a commodifying attitude that lets the
> producers

Again, lets distinguish the dairyman from the processor. Most
cases,not the same man (or woman). I think of the dairymen as the
producers.

get away with a maximum of quality reduction in the name of
> improving profitability through increased shelf life, more rugged transport
> characteristics, ability to divert high-profit milkfat into more profitable
> products, etc. In Kentucky, I was astonished to discover that what was
> passing for "whole" milk back there had a milkfat content of 3.2% !

And your point is? The average milk fat percentage of holstein milk
is 3.3%. Since greater than 90% of the cattle in the United States
are holsteins, 3.2% sounds pretty whole to me. There simply aren't
enough jersey's and guernsey's around to pull up that number. For
example, in our area at home, out of all the dairies, we have one
guernsey herd (my parents) and one jersey herd. There are about 20-30
holstein herds though. When you get milk from the store, it's going to
be a mix of milk from different farms and different breeds.

This is from http://world.std.com/~kcl/Rcheesefat.html . I'm not a
big fan of stuff I don't find in the primary scientific lit, but I do
have a journal article that I can find when I get home that has this
info in it as well. Here are the milk fat percentages of 4 of the 5
major breeds of dairy cattle in the United States. I'm not sure why
they didn't have brown swiss listed, but IIRC, it's milk fat
percentage is right around that of the holstein.

Jersey cow 5.5
Guernsey 5.3
Aryshire 3.8
Holstein 3.3

That's
> not even close to whole milk in my book.

It's practically whole milk "holstein style". If you've drank pure
jersey milk, then it's not.

Given that it was ultra-
> pasteurized as well, why not just add white dye to water and sell it as
> milk?
>
> Worse, because of the trends, a generation is growing up with no concept of
> what quality milk can and should taste like. I suspect many kids imagine
> that milk is nothing more than a bland, insipid white liquid. A good,
> unhomogenized, raw, whole (5% milkfat) milk is a sensuous thing - smooth,
> rich, with an almost candy-like sweetness (no, not an artificial/chemical
> flavour), and nuances of the fields the cows grazed in.

Raw unpasteurized milk is not what I want to drink. My grandparents
also farmed, and my dad and uncle had an incredibly number of sore
throats and other illnesses until my grandmother bought a pasteurizer
when my dad was about 9. Immediately, they stopped being so sick.
It's one of the reasons why my parents always have and still do buy
their milk from the grocery. My dad didn't want my sister and I
drinking unpasteurized milk, and my mom (who's an accountant and works
full time) didn't have time to pasteurize it at home.

My uncle and dad also still tell how they hated the unhomogenized
stuff. the way my uncle--now a 49 year old man--and my dad--now 51--
tell the story, it had to have been pretty nasty.

In fairness perhaps
> to demand truly raw milk is putting unrealistic restrictions on milk
> producers

the processors

I think there are regulations that raw milk cannot be sold. I'll have
to double check that, but I think I'm right.

, but could they not at least use LTLT (low-temperature, long-
> time) pasteurization? In this technique, the milk is only subjected to
> relatively mild heating (140-160F) for a rather longer time. The gentler
> process minimizes the change in flavour.

I think a lot of bottlers still actually use this process.... I know
UHT milk as to be labled,and I think the UP milk as to be labled too
(but not sure on the UP milk).

> As you can tell, you've stumbled upon one of my pet peeves...

In this day and age... It's just not feasible to do things like they
did a long time ago. My best advice if you want the milk like you
remember, go out and buy a cow (guernseys are better than jersey's,
imo.. much sweeter and gentle tempered.. Jersey's are just plain evil
to work with..) Then, go get some antibiotics for that sore throat

In article >, wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > I know that humans are different than other animals, but I was surprised
> > to read the above. Humans generally are not fertile while lactating. My
> > wife went for five years without having a normal monthly cycle, due to a
> > combination of lactation and pregnancy.
>
> There is a name for babies born because people think a nursing mother
> can't get pregnant. Sorry, I forget what the name is, but I sure
> wouldn't rely on nursing as birth control.


Depends on how much you are counting on it to work.


:-)


Many people who've had a baby, want to have another one. If the next one
doesn't come for awhile, that's great. If it comes sooner, that may be OK
too. But you are certainly correct that it is not the least bit
reliable. Of course, I'm sure there are lots of people who *want* to get
pregnant, and don't realize that they need to wean the first baby if they
really want another one soon.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

In article > ,
(DRB) wrote:

> (Dan Abel) wrote in message
>...

> > I know that humans are different than other animals, but I was surprised
> > to read the above. Humans generally are not fertile while lactating. My
> > wife went for five years without having a normal monthly cycle, due to a
> > combination of lactation and pregnancy.
>
> You really didn't know that?


Really!



> OTOH, my Ph.D research is with goats. They have to be dried off
> completely before they can be bred again.



Now my head is swimming! Like I said, I knew humans were somewhat
unique. So now you're saying that non-human mammals are not consistent.
I'm not cut out to be a farmer for sure.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

Nancy Young > wrote in
:

> There is a name for babies born because people think a nursing mother
> can't get pregnant. Sorry, I forget what the name is, but I sure
> wouldn't rely on nursing as birth control.
>
> nancy
>

Especially cute is the name that comes to my mind.

in article , Nancy Young at
wrote on 10/10/03 6:51 PM:

> There is a name for babies born because people think a nursing mother
> can't get pregnant. Sorry, I forget what the name is, but I sure
> wouldn't rely on nursing as birth control.
>
> nancy

accidents.

there was a saying, years ago:
"there's a name for people who practice the rhythm method of birth control.
parents."

Sheryl Rosen wrote:
>
> in article , Nancy Young at
> wrote on 10/10/03 6:51 PM:
>
> > There is a name for babies born because people think a nursing mother
> > can't get pregnant. Sorry, I forget what the name is, but I sure
> > wouldn't rely on nursing as birth control.
> >
> > nancy
>
> accidents.
>
> there was a saying, years ago:
> "there's a name for people who practice the rhythm method of birth control.
> parents."

(laugh) Really, there is a name for the syndrome of "I'm so dumb I
think I can't get pregnant while I'm breastfeeding" but I can't think
what it is. But that is a really funny saying, Sheryl. Parents.

I really shouldn't laugh, the ban on birth control is killing people,
but that's for another day. Maybe the pope will be happy when every
single person in Africa is dead.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:

> (laugh) Really, there is a name for the syndrome of "I'm so dumb I
> think I can't get pregnant while I'm breastfeeding" but I can't think
> what it is. But that is a really funny saying, Sheryl. Parents.


Most popular falsehoods have a germ of truth in them. That's the case
with the one about not getting pregnant while breastfeeding.

The body won't ovulate until it has a sufficient store of calories.
That explains why anorexic women stop menstruating. Same for women
starving due to famine. Also sometimes true for highly athletic women
who are in such fantastic shape that they're pure muscle with virtually
no stored fat.

In places where calories are just sufficient but still scarce, it is
hard to store up those calories while breast feeding. It takes a lot of
food to feed a growing baby. In the third world, breast feeding can act
as a sort of birth control. In countries where food is plentiful, it
doesn't work well at all.

--Lia

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> Now my head is swimming! Like I said, I knew humans were somewhat
> unique. So now you're saying that non-human mammals are not consistent.
> I'm not cut out to be a farmer for sure.
>

That's pretty much it. Non-human mammals are not consistent...

Julia Altshuler > wrote in message news:<XZJhb.724010$YN5.646592@sccrnsc01>...
> Nancy Young wrote:
>
> > (laugh) Really, there is a name for the syndrome of "I'm so dumb I
> > think I can't get pregnant while I'm breastfeeding" but I can't think
> > what it is. But that is a really funny saying, Sheryl. Parents.
>
>
> Most popular falsehoods have a germ of truth in them. That's the case
> with the one about not getting pregnant while breastfeeding.
>
> The body won't ovulate until it has a sufficient store of calories.
> That explains why anorexic women stop menstruating. Same for women
> starving due to famine. Also sometimes true for highly athletic women
> who are in such fantastic shape that they're pure muscle with virtually
> no stored fat.
>
> In places where calories are just sufficient but still scarce, it is
> hard to store up those calories while breast feeding. It takes a lot of
> food to feed a growing baby. In the third world, breast feeding can act
> as a sort of birth control. In countries where food is plentiful, it
> doesn't work well at all.
>
> --Lia

Well, in non-3rd-world countries anyone who doesn't want to get
pregnant should be smart enough to use birth control, breastfeeding or
not. It's amazing how many stupid or ignorant people there really are
in this country.

-L.