Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.

I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
have lower carb meals.

Anon

"Anon" > wrote in
:

> Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone.
> I usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so
> I have been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to
> the meal. I especially like the label that tells me how many carbs
> are in the meal.
>
> I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because
> they have lower carb meals.
>
> Anon



WOAH! Are you T1 or T2? TV dinners are so high in carbs - even the
lower carb ones are too high in carbs for me!

It's not that hard to cook up a chicken breast and some frozen veggies
and have a quick meal that way. If you have a cookbook that has
recipes for two, then you will have *two* meals for the work of one
<rbg>

Sherry

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:45:46 -0800, "Anon" >
wrote:

>Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
>usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
>been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
>especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
>
>I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
>have lower carb meals.
>
>Anon
>

I agree with the others on TV dinners.

Just a suggestion. Try cooking up meals in bulk - soups,
casseroles, stews and similar. Then freeze single serves in
individual packs. It only takes a few minutes to zap one in
the microwave and you can do all your cooking in one
afternoon every week or so.

I spent yesterday doing a little cooking. Over four hours
(most of it spent reading or watching TV, interrupted by the
timer occasionally to check things) I cooked up 8 serves of
curry,
http://tinyurl.com/26gsj9
six of beef burgundy
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/20...-burgundy.html
and 11 serves of soup
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/20...able-soup.html

Overnight in the fridge to cool in bulk, into plastic
containers this morning.

That doesn't mean you have to eat soup for every lunch and
stew every night - but it does let you zap it quick and easy
when you don't feel like cooking something else.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

In article 42>,
Sherry > wrote:

> "Anon" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone.
> > I usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so
> > I have been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to
> > the meal. I especially like the label that tells me how many carbs
> > are in the meal.
> >
> > I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because
> > they have lower carb meals.
> >
> > Anon
> WOAH! Are you T1 or T2? TV dinners are so high in carbs - even the
> lower carb ones are too high in carbs for me!
>
> It's not that hard to cook up a chicken breast and some frozen veggies
> and have a quick meal that way. If you have a cookbook that has
> recipes for two, then you will have *two* meals for the work of one
> <rbg>

I love my George Foreman grill to cook a boneless chicken breast to have
with a big pile of cooked frozen vegies. I often sprinkle the chicken
with seasoning (most recently, curry powder) before grilling it. From
the time I put on the kettle to boil water for the frozen vegies to when
I take my plate into the other room to eat it is about 20 minutes, with
most of that time spent listening to the radio while I wait for things
to finish.

The grill also works fabulously for boneless chops, etc.

Priscilla

"Sherry" > wrote in message
. 97.142...

>
> WOAH! Are you T1 or T2? TV dinners are so high in carbs - even the
> lower carb ones are too high in carbs for me!
>
> It's not that hard to cook up a chicken breast and some frozen veggies
> and have a quick meal that way. If you have a cookbook that has
> recipes for two, then you will have *two* meals for the work of one
> <rbg>

I no longer eat frozen meals because of my food allergies. But when I
didn't know about the allergies there were a few (granted very few) that I
could eat. Sometimes my daughter and I split one.

"Anon" > wrote in message
...
> Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
> usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
> been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
> especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
>
> I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
> have lower carb meals.
>
> Anon

Just choose well. The Healthy Choice Tukey Dinner has 22 grams of carb, 200
calories and 0 sugar, good choice. Unfortunately the pepperoni French bread
pizza is 49 carb grams, 5 grams sugar and weighs in at 350 calories. The
trick to any of this is to plan ahead about what you are buting, research
and READ the ingredients. You can still have your TV dinners and eat them
too

A good rule of thumb is to not use the dinners with a bread or rice base or
sweet sauces. I suppose for the zero carbers this won't work but as for me I
am a well controlled diabetic for 15 years (no damage) and use approcimatly
60-75 grams of carb per day. I do eat fruit, whole grain bread, Dreamfield's
pasta (all in moderation!) and I eat cake on my birthday.

You can check out the ingredients and nutrition on
http://www.healthychoice.com/product...s/simple_s.jsp for Healthy Choice
Meals.

Be sure and watch the sodium in them some are quite high.
"Anon" > wrote in message
...
> Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
> usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
> been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
> especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
>
> I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
> have lower carb meals.
>
> Anon
>

"Scruples" > wrote in message
...
> "Anon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
>> usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
>> been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
>> especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
>>
>> I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
>> have lower carb meals.
>>
>> Anon
>
> Just choose well. The Healthy Choice Tukey Dinner has 22 grams of carb,
> 200 calories and 0 sugar, good choice. Unfortunately the pepperoni French
> bread pizza is 49 carb grams, 5 grams sugar and weighs in at 350 calories.
> The trick to any of this is to plan ahead about what you are buting,
> research and READ the ingredients. You can still have your TV dinners and
> eat them too
>
> A good rule of thumb is to not use the dinners with a bread or rice base
> or sweet sauces. I suppose for the zero carbers this won't work but as for
> me I am a well controlled diabetic for 15 years (no damage) and use
> approcimatly 60-75 grams of carb per day. I do eat fruit, whole grain
> bread, Dreamfield's pasta (all in moderation!) and I eat cake on my
> birthday.
>
> You can check out the ingredients and nutrition on
> http://www.healthychoice.com/product...s/simple_s.jsp for Healthy
> Choice Meals.

I always read the label before buying. If it is very high carb, I don't get
it. Since I alternately use premeal insulin or Starlix, I can handle the
carbs.

My granddaughter will be back Friday, I haven't been doing so well since she
left.

Anon
T2

In article >,
"Scruples" > wrote:

> "Anon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
> > usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
> > been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
> > especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
> >
> > I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
> > have lower carb meals.
> >
> > Anon
>
> Just choose well. The Healthy Choice Tukey Dinner has 22 grams of carb, 200
> calories and 0 sugar, good choice. Unfortunately the pepperoni French bread
> pizza is 49 carb grams, 5 grams sugar and weighs in at 350 calories. The
> trick to any of this is to plan ahead about what you are buting, research
> and READ the ingredients. You can still have your TV dinners and eat them
> too
>
> A good rule of thumb is to not use the dinners with a bread or rice base or
> sweet sauces. I suppose for the zero carbers this won't work

There's only one zero carber I've seen post, and he was mentally
unstable as well as dishonest -- he actually was consuming carbs in the
vegetables he ate. He just ignored them.

To what zero carbers are you referring?


> but as for me I
> am a well controlled diabetic for 15 years (no damage) and use approcimatly
> 60-75 grams of carb per day. I do eat fruit, whole grain bread, Dreamfield's
> pasta (all in moderation!) and I eat cake on my birthday.
>
> You can check out the ingredients and nutrition on
> http://www.healthychoice.com/product...s/simple_s.jsp for Healthy Choice
> Meals.

Priscilla, T2

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:36:26 -0500, "Scruples"
> wrote:

>"Anon" > wrote in message
m...
>> Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
>> usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I have
>> been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
>> especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
>>
>> I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
>> have lower carb meals.
>>
>> Anon
>
>Just choose well. The Healthy Choice Tukey Dinner has 22 grams of carb, 200
>calories and 0 sugar, good choice. Unfortunately the pepperoni French bread
>pizza is 49 carb grams, 5 grams sugar and weighs in at 350 calories. The
>trick to any of this is to plan ahead about what you are buting, research
>and READ the ingredients. You can still have your TV dinners and eat them
>too
>
>A good rule of thumb is to not use the dinners with a bread or rice base or
>sweet sauces. I suppose for the zero carbers this won't work but as for me I
>am a well controlled diabetic for 15 years (no damage) and use approcimatly
>60-75 grams of carb per day. I do eat fruit, whole grain bread, Dreamfield's
>pasta (all in moderation!) and I eat cake on my birthday.
>
>You can check out the ingredients and nutrition on
>http://www.healthychoice.com/product...s/simple_s.jsp for Healthy Choice
>Meals.
>
I've found the hard way that labels are only a guide - and
often a very rough guide. Test an hour after a dinner the
first time you have it to see whether you should buy it
again.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

"Alan S" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:36:26 -0500, "Scruples"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Anon" > wrote in message
om...
>>> Since my granddaughter went to visit her sister, I have been alone. I
>>> usually don't have the ambition to cook a real meal just for me so I
>>> have
>>> been eating a lot of TV dinners. Sometimes I add a salad to the meal. I
>>> especially like the label that tells me how many carbs are in the meal.
>>>
>>> I like the Stouffer's, Healthy Choice and Smart Ones brands because they
>>> have lower carb meals.
>>>
>>> Anon
>>
>>Just choose well. The Healthy Choice Tukey Dinner has 22 grams of carb,
>>200
>>calories and 0 sugar, good choice. Unfortunately the pepperoni French
>>bread
>>pizza is 49 carb grams, 5 grams sugar and weighs in at 350 calories. The
>>trick to any of this is to plan ahead about what you are buting, research
>>and READ the ingredients. You can still have your TV dinners and eat them
>>too
>>
>>A good rule of thumb is to not use the dinners with a bread or rice base
>>or
>>sweet sauces. I suppose for the zero carbers this won't work but as for me
>>I
>>am a well controlled diabetic for 15 years (no damage) and use
>>approcimatly
>>60-75 grams of carb per day. I do eat fruit, whole grain bread,
>>Dreamfield's
>>pasta (all in moderation!) and I eat cake on my birthday.
>>
>>You can check out the ingredients and nutrition on
>>http://www.healthychoice.com/product...s/simple_s.jsp for Healthy
>>Choice
>>Meals.
>>
> I've found the hard way that labels are only a guide - and
> often a very rough guide. Test an hour after a dinner the
> first time you have it to see whether you should buy it
> again.
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> --
> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
> http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
> latest: Epidaurus

I've found that the labels on TV dinners are quite accurate. I can tell
because if I inject premeal insulin according to the net carb count, it
comes out about right every time.

Anon

I'm sorry to hear that, but not really surprised. IIRC he was divorced.
Sad really.

Cheri


Priscilla H. Ballou wrote in message ...

>Yeah, he's popped up elsewhere and it appears that his mental state has
>deteriorated quite considerably even from how it was when he was here.
>He is seriously out to lunch. I feel sorry for any family he has.
>
>Priscilla

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...

>> Priscilla
> To be fair, CDE trained carb counters don't count veggies unless they are
> starchy ones like potatoes, peas, legumes, corn, etc.

That's not entirely true. If they amount to 15 g of carb they are supposed
to count them.
>
> When DH was on orals and still making some insulin he was a trained
> carb-counter. He did quite well on that regime. It was easier to handle
> than that horrid exahange diet that could kill a DM with carbs.

Same thing. I still do the exchange program. No difference really. Still
adds up to the same.
>
> He still carb counts with the pump. His Endo and CDE don't want him to
> count carbs in non-starchy veggies. Tomatoes do not do him in.

But this guy said he didn't EAT any carbs. He wasn't talking about counting
them. And there are carbs in vegetables.

Alan Moorman wrote:

>>
> There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I don't
> understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM with
> carbs!
>
> Whatever could they mean?
>
> I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and used
> it for many years. . .
>
>

Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high carb count. Full
of bread and starch and starchy snacks.

You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't understand the
exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a sheet of paper
with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some oral meds and
sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They wouldn't know
that they need education.

Most of those who are treated as above can't comprehend the exchange
diet and switch to diet soft drinks and artificial sweetner in their
coffee. They haven't a clue about the effect of carbohydrates.

I personally know several DMs who struggled with the exchange diet,
threw it away and only were able to get back in control when they
learned to count carbs. It's much less threatening, much easier to
understand, and much easier to test for results. I just sent a friend of
mine a carb counting book and for the first time in years, she's got a
better understanding of how things effect her BG.

When the local medical center has its free Senior screening, the nurse
reading the results of the BG test tells the patient to "avoid sweets"
when counseling them. Nothing about avoiding carbs. Every day I am
finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because they
substitute a sweetener for sugar. No counting the starch in the flour,
milk, etc. I even cancelled a subscription to a recipe magazine because
after writing to them twice to please refrain from calling recipes
"diabetic" when they were high in carbs, they never responded.

That's the way it is in the real world. I'm glad your world is a better
place.

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

This is such a true post! It should be required reading IMO. :-)

Cheri


Janet Wilder wrote in message
>...
>Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high carb count. Full
>of bread and starch and starchy snacks.
>
>You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't understand the
>exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a sheet of paper
>with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some oral meds and
>sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They wouldn't know
>that they need education.
>
>Most of those who are treated as above can't comprehend the exchange
>diet and switch to diet soft drinks and artificial sweetner in their
>coffee. They haven't a clue about the effect of carbohydrates.
>
>I personally know several DMs who struggled with the exchange diet,
>threw it away and only were able to get back in control when they
>learned to count carbs. It's much less threatening, much easier to
>understand, and much easier to test for results. I just sent a friend
of
>mine a carb counting book and for the first time in years, she's got a
>better understanding of how things effect her BG.
>
>When the local medical center has its free Senior screening, the nurse
>reading the results of the BG test tells the patient to "avoid sweets"
>when counseling them. Nothing about avoiding carbs. Every day I am
>finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because they
>substitute a sweetener for sugar. No counting the starch in the flour,
>milk, etc. I even cancelled a subscription to a recipe magazine
because
>after writing to them twice to please refrain from calling recipes
>"diabetic" when they were high in carbs, they never responded.
>
>That's the way it is in the real world. I'm glad your world is a better
>place.
>
>--
>Janet Wilder
>Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
>Good Friends. Good Life

"Alan Moorman" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:18:19 GMT, "Julie Bove"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> >>> Priscilla
> >> To be fair, CDE trained carb counters don't count
veggies unless they are
> >> starchy ones like potatoes, peas, legumes, corn, etc.
> >
> >That's not entirely true. If they amount to 15 g of carb
they are supposed
> >to count them.
> >>
> >> When DH was on orals and still making some insulin he
was a trained
> >> carb-counter. He did quite well on that regime. It was
easier to handle
> >> than that horrid exahange diet that could kill a DM
with carbs.
> >
> >Same thing. I still do the exchange program. No
difference really. Still
> >adds up to the same.
> >>
> There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I don't
> understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM
with
> carbs!
>
> Whatever could they mean?
>
> I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and
used
> it for many years. . .

IME the problem I see is the fact that although a dietician
says (for example) that grain bread is better than white,
they don't actually say don't eat white bread. At least not
those dieticians I have seen. A common exchange plan here in
Oz was (maybe still is) a Good, Better, Best list. Good was
white bread, better was wholemeal, best was whole grain.
White bread hits me hard and fast and as no one is actually
told they can't eat white bread I would bet there are a lot
of newbies (who aren't keen on making a lot of changes to
diet) that would jump at the chance of being "allowed" to
eat their old food types. I firmly believe that treating
diabetes (the diet part) is all about making significant
changes overall. Not just trying to fit 15 gr of any carb
into a diet plan. 15 gr sugar for a cup of tea with a meal
isn't good sense or good value.

"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
...
> Alan Moorman wrote:
>
> >>
> > There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I
don't
> > understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM
with
> > carbs!
> >
> > Whatever could they mean?
> >
> > I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and
used
> > it for many years. . .
> >
> >
>
> Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high
carb count. Full
> of bread and starch and starchy snacks.
>
> You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't
understand the
> exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a
sheet of paper
> with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some
oral meds and
> sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They
wouldn't know
> that they need education.

Very true. Many type 2's I know take the doctors and
dieticians advice as gospel. Ok, I am allowed to eat 4 carb
exchanges with breakfast blah blah. If the medical
professional says 4 exchanges is good then why should they
question it? If the numbers are bad, the doc will just give
them more meds, if a complication arises, oh that's par for
the diabetic's course. I feel very sorry for those who trust
in the advice implicitly. I much prefer to just count carbs,
eat the amount of carb I know I can handle and make sure
that amount is as nutritious as possible.

Every day I am
> finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because
they
> substitute a sweetener for sugar.

When my ex was first diagnosed as a type 2 we were given a
sugar-free diabetic cookbook. Instead of sugar it contained
honey and lots of dried fruits.

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:00:50 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:18:19 GMT, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>>> Priscilla
>>> To be fair, CDE trained carb counters don't count veggies unless they are
>>> starchy ones like potatoes, peas, legumes, corn, etc.
>>
>>That's not entirely true. If they amount to 15 g of carb they are supposed
>>to count them.
>>>
>>> When DH was on orals and still making some insulin he was a trained
>>> carb-counter. He did quite well on that regime. It was easier to handle
>>> than that horrid exahange diet that could kill a DM with carbs.
>>
>>Same thing. I still do the exchange program. No difference really. Still
>>adds up to the same.
>>>
>There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I don't
>understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM with
>carbs!
>
>Whatever could they mean?
>
>I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and used
>it for many years. . .
>
>
>
>Alan Moorman
>

Obviously for you it worked. YMMV. It would have killed, or
at least damaged, me.

The one taught to me by my dietician required 12-15 15gm
exchanges per day - 3 per meal, one per snack. Thus, 45-60
gms for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Until I dropped it my A1c refused to drop under 7.5% despite
significant weight loss and I was averaging well over
10mmol/L (180mg/dl) 1hr after breakfast; within a week of
putting Jennifer's advice into practice I was dropping under
8(144); very shortly I maintained a 1hr level under 7(126)
and found that I was eating less than 5gms carb at breakfast
to do that.

The worst part of the set exchange diet was the standard
carb level at each meal - I found that I have quite
different carb tolerance at each meal. I can quite happily
eat 45-60 gms in the evening without a spike, but not in the
morning or at lunch.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

Alan Moorman wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:10:18 -0600, Janet Wilder
> > wrote:
>
>>Alan Moorman wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>> There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I
don't
>>> understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM
with
>>> carbs!
>>>
>>> Whatever could they mean?
>>>
>>> I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and
used
>>> it for many years. . .
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high
carb count.
>>Full of bread and starch and starchy snacks.
>>
>>You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't
understand the
>>exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a
sheet of paper
>>with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some
oral meds and
>>sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They
wouldn't know
>>that they need education.
>>
>>Most of those who are treated as above can't comprehend
the exchange
>>diet and switch to diet soft drinks and artificial
sweetner in their
>>coffee. They haven't a clue about the effect of
carbohydrates.
>>
>>I personally know several DMs who struggled with the
exchange diet,
>>threw it away and only were able to get back in control
when they
>>learned to count carbs. It's much less threatening, much
easier to
>>understand, and much easier to test for results. I just
sent a friend
>>of mine a carb counting book and for the first time in
years, she's
>>got a better understanding of how things effect her BG.
>>
>>When the local medical center has its free Senior
screening, the nurse
>>reading the results of the BG test tells the patient to
"avoid sweets"
>>when counseling them. Nothing about avoiding carbs. Every
day I am
>>finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because
they
>>substitute a sweetener for sugar. No counting the starch
in the flour,
>>milk, etc. I even cancelled a subscription to a recipe
magazine
>>because after writing to them twice to please refrain from
calling
>>recipes "diabetic" when they were high in carbs, they
never responded.
>>
>>That's the way it is in the real world. I'm glad your
world is a
>>better place.
> Well, the thing about the exchange diet is that you can
> choose what you want to eat, and the exchange of one food
in
> a class versus another in that class lets you know how you
> can plan your diet to include new foods, or foods you
> particularly like.
>
> I never saw anything in it that said you have to eat food
> that is high in carbs.
>
> Many people had a problem with the exchange diet, which is
> why "they" moved to carb counting.
>
> My sense of it is that many people just didn't understand
> the exchange concept and may have used it wrong.
>
> But, I never found it to be a problem. Small amounts of
> foods high in carbs aren't a problem, you know. You just
> have to know enough about nutrition to know that you can
eat
> rice, but limit the quantity.

That's the point I am making. A lot don't know about
nutrition (or even more importantly the effects of certain
carbs on their bg) and aren't aware they need to educate
themselves. If you are given a diet by a dietician then
one's first thought is that it must be right for you as a
diabetic otherwise you wouldn't be given that said diet?

> The exchange diet always did that for me -- guiding me to
> sensible quantities so that I didn't over-do it!

The guidelines I was given weren't sensible, 4 exchanges per
meal is quite a large amount of carb for starters, no matter
what "type" of carb you choose as your exchange and there
was also no allowance made for the high insulin resistance
that type 2's experience in the a.m.

So on the whole, a newbie who doesn't know they need to
educate themselves could be floundering from day 1 and end
up as the statistics we see for kidney, eye, limb, heart etc
complications we see. A carb exchange diet may be easy but
not exactly beneficial without at least a basic tutorial
from the dietician which seems to be lacking.

In article >,
Alan Moorman > wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:21:16 +1100, "Ozgirl"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> Alan Moorman wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> > There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I
> >don't
> >> > understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM
> >with
> >> > carbs!
> >> >
> >> > Whatever could they mean?
> >> >
> >> > I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and
> >used
> >> > it for many years. . .
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high
> >carb count. Full
> >> of bread and starch and starchy snacks.
> >>
> >> You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't
> >understand the
> >> exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a
> >sheet of paper
> >> with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some
> >oral meds and
> >> sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They
> >wouldn't know
> >> that they need education.
> >
> >Very true. Many type 2's I know take the doctors and
> >dieticians advice as gospel. Ok, I am allowed to eat 4 carb
> >exchanges with breakfast blah blah. If the medical
> >professional says 4 exchanges is good then why should they
> >question it? If the numbers are bad, the doc will just give
> >them more meds, if a complication arises, oh that's par for
> >the diabetic's course. I feel very sorry for those who trust
> >in the advice implicitly. I much prefer to just count carbs,
> >eat the amount of carb I know I can handle and make sure
> >that amount is as nutritious as possible.
>
> You're right. I don't think 'they' are giving people
> correct information. I can't find the data sheets I used to
> use to make meals from the exchange diet, but I don't think
> 4 carb exchanges was what was specified for breakfast!
>
> Also, remember that the exchange diet specified all these
> for every meal: Protein exchanges, starch exchanges,
> veggie exchanges, etc. etc. with the aim that you built a
> healthy, balanced meal.
>
> If a person used that diet that way, they would really,
> really be eating a balanced, healthy diet. Not an
> unbalanced, unhealthy diet.
>
> >
> > Every day I am
> >> finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because
> >they
> >> substitute a sweetener for sugar.
> >
> >When my ex was first diagnosed as a type 2 we were given a
> >sugar-free diabetic cookbook. Instead of sugar it contained
> >honey and lots of dried fruits.
>
> That's just wrong!
>
> I wonder if the 'experts' are really so uninformed, or if
> there is some feeling that they will completely demoralize
> people if they give them the kind of diabetes meal
> guidelines that they're going to have to learn to live with?
>

Now you're listening.

Like you, I got an Exchange diet sheet when I was first diagnosed. At
the very top, it specified that on an 1800 calorie/day diet, I should be
eating 224 g/carb, 90 g/protein, and 60 g/fat.

The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1 fruit
exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
protein. That's 60 g/carbs.

The sample lunch is built around 2 starch exchanges and 1 fruit
exchange, as well as up to 2 vegetable exchanges. There are also 3
protein exchanges and 1 fat. So we have 50 g/carb.

Dinner is built around 3 starch exchanges, 2 vegetable exchanges, and 1
fruit exchange, as well as 3 meat exchanges and 2 fat exchanges. That's
c. 70 g/carbs.

The evening snack is 1 starch exchange, 1 fruit exchange, and 1 milk
exchange.

To be fair, this sheet is presented as a starting point to work with,
until you can meet with a dietician and get something more personalized.
I realize that, for many folks, this is still far less carbohydrate than
they had been eating. But I personally found that, once I'd cut out
fruit juice and gooey desserts and pasta as a main course, this sheet
was telling me that it was important to eat *more* carbs than I had been
eating, especially at dinner.

But, the breakfast is absolutely the worst thing. This "starting point"
is asking diabetics to eat more carbs at breakfast than at lunch.

You're writing about this as if vegetable exchanges are just another
carb category. But that's not the case. The starch, fruit, and dairy
exchanges are defined as servings with 15g/carb each, but the vegetable
exchanges are defined to have 5g/carbs each. That's how I did my
figuring.

This meal plan sheet, sponsored by Eli Lilly, is what we're criticizing.
But, it's not what you're defending.

--
AF
"Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team."
--artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball

Alan Moorman wrote:

> No nonononono 4 'exchanges' of a carb like broccoli or
> any number of green vegetables amounts to a very small
> amount of carbs. Remember, an 'exchange' is a measured
> amount, which limits the size of the serving.
>
> The page listing vegetables says one 'exchange' of veggies
> is 5 grams of carbs. You think that's too much for
> dinner/supper??

No but I was talking about the 4 exchanges that were made up
of starch. that's what my dietician told me to eat. I had to
have 4 exchanges from the starch group. No ifs, buts or
maybes. 4 for each main meal, 2 each for the 3 snacks. I was
pregnant and my endo had me on a tight bg limit. I cut down
the starch exchanges and told the endo and he was happy but
what about those who don't know anything about diabetes,
carbs, their effects etc?

> And, 4 exchanges of "starch" let's say rice, is 60 grams
of
> carbs. If that fits into your body-weight calorie count
for
> supper/dinner, that ISN'T too much! However, you're
> supposed to use the diet to choose SOME starch, and SOME
> vegetables, and your total carb count for that meal would
> probably be about half that -- about 30 grams.

Well, I don't generally use any starch but once again, if I
don't know any better I would choose not only the 4
exchanges but those exchanges would consist most probably of
white rice, white bread, paste etc. Too often an exchange
diet is handed out with no instructions.

> Remember, the total amount of calories and exchanges you
eat
> is based on your body weight and the amount of activity.
So,
> if you're setting things up properly, you can eat well,
and
> keep your intake healthy for you and hour diabetes.
>
>> and there
>>was also no allowance made for the high insulin resistance
>>that type 2's experience in the a.m.
>
> So? You have to deal with that yourself. Some people
find
> that eating a bit of protein at bedtime helps them. Some
> find that taking Lantus helps them. Some find that nothing
> helps them. It is INTENSLY variable from one person to
> another, so it won't be in a diet!

Once again, we are talking about the people educating
themselves, that is not happening for a lot of people.

In article >,
Alan Moorman > wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
> > wrote:
> >
> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1 fruit
> >exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
> >protein. That's 60 g/carbs.
>>
> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
>
> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and see how it
> affects my bG levels?
>
> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight and was
> eating healthily. . .

I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere near
that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
later in the day.

I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting level
of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't take
much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.

--
AF
"Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team."
--artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:52:35 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:21:16 +1100, "Ozgirl"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> Alan Moorman wrote:
>>>
>>> >>
>>> > There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I
>>don't
>>> > understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM
>>with
>>> > carbs!
>>> >
>>> > Whatever could they mean?
>>> >
>>> > I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and
>>used
>>> > it for many years. . .
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high
>>carb count. Full
>>> of bread and starch and starchy snacks.
>>>
>>> You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't
>>understand the
>>> exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a
>>sheet of paper
>>> with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some
>>oral meds and
>>> sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They
>>wouldn't know
>>> that they need education.
>>
>>Very true. Many type 2's I know take the doctors and
>>dieticians advice as gospel. Ok, I am allowed to eat 4 carb
>>exchanges with breakfast blah blah. If the medical
>>professional says 4 exchanges is good then why should they
>>question it? If the numbers are bad, the doc will just give
>>them more meds, if a complication arises, oh that's par for
>>the diabetic's course. I feel very sorry for those who trust
>>in the advice implicitly. I much prefer to just count carbs,
>>eat the amount of carb I know I can handle and make sure
>>that amount is as nutritious as possible.
>
>You're right. I don't think 'they' are giving people
>correct information. I can't find the data sheets I used to
>use to make meals from the exchange diet, but I don't think
>4 carb exchanges was what was specified for breakfast!
>
>Also, remember that the exchange diet specified all these
>for every meal: Protein exchanges, starch exchanges,
>veggie exchanges, etc. etc. with the aim that you built a
>healthy, balanced meal.
>
>If a person used that diet that way, they would really,
>really be eating a balanced, healthy diet. Not an
>unbalanced, unhealthy diet.
>
>>
>> Every day I am
>>> finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because
>>they
>>> substitute a sweetener for sugar.
>>
>>When my ex was first diagnosed as a type 2 we were given a
>>sugar-free diabetic cookbook. Instead of sugar it contained
>>honey and lots of dried fruits.
>
>That's just wrong!
>
>I wonder if the 'experts' are really so uninformed, or if
>there is some feeling that they will completely demoralize
>people if they give them the kind of diabetes meal
>guidelines that they're going to have to learn to live with?
>
>Alan Moorman

Probably true. I disagree with that point of view because I
believe that learning to live with blindness, heart disease,
amputations or dialysis is a tad more demoralising down the
track.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:48:34 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:26:25 +1100, Alan S
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:00:50 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:18:19 GMT, "Julie Bove"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Janet Wilder" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>
>>>>>> Priscilla
>>>>> To be fair, CDE trained carb counters don't count veggies unless they are
>>>>> starchy ones like potatoes, peas, legumes, corn, etc.
>>>>
>>>>That's not entirely true. If they amount to 15 g of carb they are supposed
>>>>to count them.
>>>>>
>>>>> When DH was on orals and still making some insulin he was a trained
>>>>> carb-counter. He did quite well on that regime. It was easier to handle
>>>>> than that horrid exahange diet that could kill a DM with carbs.
>>>>
>>>>Same thing. I still do the exchange program. No difference really. Still
>>>>adds up to the same.
>>>>>
>>>There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I don't
>>>understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM with
>>>carbs!
>>>
>>>Whatever could they mean?
>>>
>>>I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and used
>>>it for many years. . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Alan Moorman
>>>
>>
>>Obviously for you it worked. YMMV. It would have killed, or
>>at least damaged, me.
>>
>>The one taught to me by my dietician required 12-15 15gm
>>exchanges per day - 3 per meal, one per snack. Thus, 45-60
>>gms for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
>>
>>Until I dropped it my A1c refused to drop under 7.5% despite
>>significant weight loss and I was averaging well over
>>10mmol/L (180mg/dl) 1hr after breakfast; within a week of
>>putting Jennifer's advice into practice I was dropping under
>>8(144); very shortly I maintained a 1hr level under 7(126)
>>and found that I was eating less than 5gms carb at breakfast
>>to do that.
>>
>>The worst part of the set exchange diet was the standard
>>carb level at each meal - I found that I have quite
>>different carb tolerance at each meal. I can quite happily
>>eat 45-60 gms in the evening without a spike, but not in the
>>morning or at lunch.
>>
>>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>>d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
>>Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
>
>I wonder if we're working from the same data?
>
Probably not. I worked from the same data as Ozgirl - the
Australian Diabetes Association guidelines via a dietician.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

Well said Alice.

Cheri


Alice Faber wrote in message ...

>I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
>Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
>Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere near
>that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
>later in the day.
>
>I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting level
>of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
>care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't
take
>much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
>for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.
>
>--
>AF
>"Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team."
> --artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball

Alan Moorman > wrote:
: On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:10:18 -0600, Janet Wilder
: > wrote:

: >Alan Moorman wrote:
: >
: >>>
: >> There is nothing wrong with the exchange diet, and I don't
: >> understand the OP's contention that it could kill a DM with
: >> carbs!
: >>
: >> Whatever could they mean?
: >>
: >> I find the exchange diet perfectly understandable, and used
: >> it for many years. . .
: >>
: >>
: >
: >Any copy of the ADA Exchange Diet I've seen has a high carb count. Full
: >of bread and starch and starchy snacks.
: >
: >You are the exception as most DM's I've talked to don't understand the
: >exchange diet at all. The majority of them were given a sheet of paper
: >with the exchange diet by their PCP and a scrip for some oral meds and
: >sent on their way. You don't see them posting here. They wouldn't know
: >that they need education.
: >
: >Most of those who are treated as above can't comprehend the exchange
: >diet and switch to diet soft drinks and artificial sweetner in their
: >coffee. They haven't a clue about the effect of carbohydrates.
: >
: >I personally know several DMs who struggled with the exchange diet,
: >threw it away and only were able to get back in control when they
: >learned to count carbs. It's much less threatening, much easier to
: >understand, and much easier to test for results. I just sent a friend of
: >mine a carb counting book and for the first time in years, she's got a
: >better understanding of how things effect her BG.
: >
: >When the local medical center has its free Senior screening, the nurse
: >reading the results of the BG test tells the patient to "avoid sweets"
: >when counseling them. Nothing about avoiding carbs. Every day I am
: >finding recipes that say they are for "diabetics" because they
: >substitute a sweetener for sugar. No counting the starch in the flour,
: >milk, etc. I even cancelled a subscription to a recipe magazine because
: >after writing to them twice to please refrain from calling recipes
: >"diabetic" when they were high in carbs, they never responded.
: >
: >That's the way it is in the real world. I'm glad your world is a better
: >place.
: Well, the thing about the exchange diet is that you can
: choose what you want to eat, and the exchange of one food in
: a class versus another in that class lets you know how you
: can plan your diet to include new foods, or foods you
: particularly like.

: I never saw anything in it that said you have to eat food
: that is high in carbs.

: Many people had a problem with the exchange diet, which is
: why "they" moved to carb counting.

: My sense of it is that many people just didn't understand
: the exchange concept and may have used it wrong.

: But, I never found it to be a problem. Small amounts of
: foods high in carbs aren't a problem, you know. You just
: have to know enough about nutrition to know that you can eat
: rice, but limit the quantity.

: The exchange diet always did that for me -- guiding me to
: sensible quantities so that I didn't over-do it!

: Alan Moorman

The problem with the exchange diets were that they often suggested far to
many carb servings per meal. I know that if I eat more than 2 exchanges
of anything, starches, fruits, mlk, starchy vegetables, I will spike. I
try to keep my lunch an dinner to 30 grams(2 exchanges of most foods
woth carbs, wiht the exception of non-starchy vegetables) to avoid these
spikes. It is not the theory that is wron, just the proportions.

Wendy

In article >,
Alan Moorman > wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:04:18 -0500, Alice Faber
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:39:10 -0500, Alice Faber
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1 fruit
> >> >> >exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
> >> >> >protein. That's 60 g/carbs.
> >> >>>
> >> >> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
> >> >>
> >> >> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and see how it
> >> >> affects my bG levels?
> >> >>
> >> >> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight and was
> >> >> eating healthily. . .
> >> >
> >> >I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
> >> >Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
> >> >Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere near
> >> >that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
> >> >later in the day.
> >> >
> >> >I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting level
> >> >of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
> >> >care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't take
> >> >much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
> >> >for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.
> >>
> >> Well, I don't know if it does that for me,
> >>
> >> but, if that peak is gone 2 hours after eating, is that bad?
> >
> >Even the ADA goals for 1 hour peaks, that many of us think are too
> >permissive, specify under 180 mg/dl at 1 hour and under 140 mg/dl at 2
> >hours. I would prefer to be under 140 mg/dl at 1 hour and back to my
> >pre-meal number at 2 hours. I've seen citations suggesting that
> >peripheral damage begins at 140 mg/dl. Obviously, this is incremental
> >damage, so I don't think I hurt my long-term prognosis by that oatmeal
> >experiment, but I sure wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis.
> >>
> >> Isn't that what happens to non-diabetic people?
> >
> >Actually, if I'm remembering research on Jenny-the-Bean's web site, not.
> >Even under a much more intense carb-load, non-diabetics might hit
> >something like 120 mg/dl. I'm at work now, so I can't check.
> >>
> >> ...or what?
> >>
> >> Alan Moorman
>
> Well, you may be right..... Someone was posting a survey
> which mentioned that "over 140 causing damage" thing, but it
> also said that the length of time over 140 could be OK, in
> that the beta cells would recover OK, or, it could be too
> long, and they wouldn't.
>
> I don't think they mentioned where the breaking point was
> between "OK" and "too long".
>
> I think I've been arguing this largely because I think too
> many people jump to too many conclusions, and over-simplify
> complex situations regarding diet and diabetes.
>
> Somehow, people suddenly decide not to eat carbs, for
> example

Who? Citations please.

> -- regardless of the fact that our bodies NEED some
> carbs.

Again, citations please. Our bodies do NOT need carbs. If you mean we
need glucose, well we can get glucose from protein.

> They don't seem to understand that low-carbs, and
> the right carbs would probably be healthier than none at
> all.

Again, kindly name these people who advocate eating no foods containing
carbohydrates.

> I'm not accusing you of this! But, I see SO many posts in
> these news groups where people are going off the deep end
> regarding diet, that it has become a sore-point for me!

Please provide a google groups reference to one of these posts. Drunken
Bob doesn't count.

> I guess I over-react, sometimes!

Sure looks like it.

Priscilla

Alan Moorman wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:29:53 -0500, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
> > wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:04:18 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article
>,
>>> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:39:10 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >In article
>,
>>> >> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2
starch
>>> >> >> >exchanges, 1 fruit exchange, and 1 milk exchange.
There's
>>> >> >> >also 1 fat exchange, but no protein. That's 60
g/carbs.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and
see how it
>>> >> >> affects my bG levels?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight
and was
>>> >> >> eating healthily. . .
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem
with the
>>> >> >"canned" Eli Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams
of
>>> >> >carbohydrate for breakfast. Most type 2s who test
have found
>>> >> >that they can't tolerate anywhere near that amount
of
>>> >> >carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
later in
>>> >> >the day.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar
from a
>>> >> >fasting level of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl
to be a
>>> >> >healthy diet. I don't care how healthy whole grains
are. Too
>>> >> >many of them, and it doesn't take much to get to
"too many",
>>> >> >isn't healthy, for me, though they might be for
folks who don't
>>> >> >have broken metabolisms.
>>> >>
>>> >> Well, I don't know if it does that for me,
>>> >>
>>> >> but, if that peak is gone 2 hours after eating, is
that bad?
>>> >
>>> >Even the ADA goals for 1 hour peaks, that many of us
think are too
>>> >permissive, specify under 180 mg/dl at 1 hour and under
140 mg/dl
>>> >at 2 hours. I would prefer to be under 140 mg/dl at 1
hour and
>>> >back to my pre-meal number at 2 hours. I've seen
citations
>>> >suggesting that peripheral damage begins at 140 mg/dl.
Obviously,
>>> >this is incremental damage, so I don't think I hurt my
long-term
>>> >prognosis by that oatmeal experiment, but I sure
wouldn't want to
>>> >do it on a regular basis.
>>> >>
>>> >> Isn't that what happens to non-diabetic people?
>>> >
>>> >Actually, if I'm remembering research on
Jenny-the-Bean's web
>>> >site, not. Even under a much more intense carb-load,
non-diabetics
>>> >might hit something like 120 mg/dl. I'm at work now, so
I can't
>>> >check.
>>> >>
>>> >> ...or what?
>>> >>
>>> >> Alan Moorman
>>>
>>> Well, you may be right..... Someone was posting a
survey
>>> which mentioned that "over 140 causing damage" thing,
but it
>>> also said that the length of time over 140 could be OK,
in
>>> that the beta cells would recover OK, or, it could be
too
>>> long, and they wouldn't.
>>>
>>> I don't think they mentioned where the breaking point
was
>>> between "OK" and "too long".
>>>
>>> I think I've been arguing this largely because I think
too
>>> many people jump to too many conclusions, and
over-simplify
>>> complex situations regarding diet and diabetes.
>>>
>>> Somehow, people suddenly decide not to eat carbs, for
>>> example
>>
>>Who? Citations please.
>>
>>> -- regardless of the fact that our bodies NEED some
>>> carbs.
>>
>>Again, citations please. Our bodies do NOT need carbs.
If you mean
>>we need glucose, well we can get glucose from protein.
>>
>>> They don't seem to understand that low-carbs, and
>>> the right carbs would probably be healthier than none at
>>> all.
>>
>>Again, kindly name these people who advocate eating no
foods
>>containing carbohydrates.
>>
>>> I'm not accusing you of this! But, I see SO many posts
in
>>> these news groups where people are going off the deep
end
>>> regarding diet, that it has become a sore-point for me!
>>
>>Please provide a google groups reference to one of these
posts.
>>Drunken Bob doesn't count.
>>
>>> I guess I over-react, sometimes!
>>
>>Sure looks like it.
>>
>>Priscilla
>
> All you have to do is hang around these diabetes and
> nutrition and cooking news groups for a year and you'll
see
> it keep cropping up from poor misguided people who are
> trying to lose weight, or whatever is on their little
minds.
>
> Don't need no steenkin' cites.
>
> Alan

well I have been hangin around the diabetes groups for eight
years, and have never seen anyone but drunken Bob "advocate"
no carbs. Everyone else carbs in varying degrees. Most eat
*mainly* low carb, nutrition-packed vegetables over useless
starches. Researching proper nutrition isn't hard and
despite a person's diet not conforming to your own personal
likes, most would be eating what they need. It is more than
possible to eat very well as well as control bg's and lose
or maintain weight.

In article >,
Alan Moorman > wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:29:53 -0500, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:04:18 -0500, Alice Faber
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:39:10 -0500, Alice Faber
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article >,
> >> >> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1
> >> >> >> >fruit
> >> >> >> >exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
> >> >> >> >protein. That's 60 g/carbs.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and see how it
> >> >> >> affects my bG levels?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight and was
> >> >> >> eating healthily. . .
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
> >> >> >Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
> >> >> >Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere
> >> >> >near
> >> >> >that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
> >> >> >later in the day.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting
> >> >> >level
> >> >> >of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
> >> >> >care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't
> >> >> >take
> >> >> >much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
> >> >> >for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, I don't know if it does that for me,
> >> >>
> >> >> but, if that peak is gone 2 hours after eating, is that bad?
> >> >
> >> >Even the ADA goals for 1 hour peaks, that many of us think are too
> >> >permissive, specify under 180 mg/dl at 1 hour and under 140 mg/dl at 2
> >> >hours. I would prefer to be under 140 mg/dl at 1 hour and back to my
> >> >pre-meal number at 2 hours. I've seen citations suggesting that
> >> >peripheral damage begins at 140 mg/dl. Obviously, this is incremental
> >> >damage, so I don't think I hurt my long-term prognosis by that oatmeal
> >> >experiment, but I sure wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis.
> >> >>
> >> >> Isn't that what happens to non-diabetic people?
> >> >
> >> >Actually, if I'm remembering research on Jenny-the-Bean's web site, not.
> >> >Even under a much more intense carb-load, non-diabetics might hit
> >> >something like 120 mg/dl. I'm at work now, so I can't check.
> >> >>
> >> >> ...or what?
> >> >>
> >> >> Alan Moorman
> >>
> >> Well, you may be right..... Someone was posting a survey
> >> which mentioned that "over 140 causing damage" thing, but it
> >> also said that the length of time over 140 could be OK, in
> >> that the beta cells would recover OK, or, it could be too
> >> long, and they wouldn't.
> >>
> >> I don't think they mentioned where the breaking point was
> >> between "OK" and "too long".
> >>
> >> I think I've been arguing this largely because I think too
> >> many people jump to too many conclusions, and over-simplify
> >> complex situations regarding diet and diabetes.
> >>
> >> Somehow, people suddenly decide not to eat carbs, for
> >> example
> >
> >Who? Citations please.
> >
> >> -- regardless of the fact that our bodies NEED some
> >> carbs.
> >
> >Again, citations please. Our bodies do NOT need carbs. If you mean we
> >need glucose, well we can get glucose from protein.
> >
> >> They don't seem to understand that low-carbs, and
> >> the right carbs would probably be healthier than none at
> >> all.
> >
> >Again, kindly name these people who advocate eating no foods containing
> >carbohydrates.
> >
> >> I'm not accusing you of this! But, I see SO many posts in
> >> these news groups where people are going off the deep end
> >> regarding diet, that it has become a sore-point for me!
> >
> >Please provide a google groups reference to one of these posts. Drunken
> >Bob doesn't count.
> >
> >> I guess I over-react, sometimes!
> >
> >Sure looks like it.
> >
> >Priscilla
>
> All you have to do is hang around these diabetes and
> nutrition and cooking news groups for a year and you'll see
> it keep cropping up from poor misguided people who are
> trying to lose weight, or whatever is on their little minds.
>
> Don't need no steenkin' cites.
>
> Alan

The only one I've seen it from is Bob the drunk. If you're going to
claim it happens, I want to see citations or I'll keep challenging you
on it.

Priscilla

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:50:51 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:39:10 -0500, Alice Faber
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1 fruit
>>> >exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
>>> >protein. That's 60 g/carbs.
>>>>
>>> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
>>>
>>> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and see how it
>>> affects my bG levels?
>>>
>>> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight and was
>>> eating healthily. . .
>>
>>I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
>>Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
>>Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere near
>>that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
>>later in the day.
>>
>>I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting level
>>of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
>>care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't take
>>much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
>>for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.
>
>Well, I don't know if it does that for me,
>
Why don't you know? Aren't you testing to find out?

>but, if that peak is gone 2 hours after eating, is that bad?
>
Being gone is not bad - but that doesn't mean that it didn't
happen. And, if damage occurred as a result and the damage
hasn't healed, then yes, it is bad. The fact that we may not
be aware of that damage does not make it good. Nor is the
fact that the scientists don't know - not knowing is not the
same as not happening.

>Isn't that what happens to non-diabetic people?
>
No, they never spike like we do. Specifically, if they spike
over 200 they will be diagnosed as one of us anyway.

>...or what?
>
???

>Alan Moorman



Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:51:31 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:04:18 -0500, Alice Faber
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:39:10 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article >,
>>> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1 fruit
>>> >> >exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
>>> >> >protein. That's 60 g/carbs.
>>> >>>
>>> >> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
>>> >>
>>> >> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and see how it
>>> >> affects my bG levels?
>>> >>
>>> >> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight and was
>>> >> eating healthily. . .
>>> >
>>> >I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
>>> >Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
>>> >Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere near
>>> >that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
>>> >later in the day.
>>> >
>>> >I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting level
>>> >of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
>>> >care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't take
>>> >much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
>>> >for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.
>>>
>>> Well, I don't know if it does that for me,
>>>
>>> but, if that peak is gone 2 hours after eating, is that bad?
>>
>>Even the ADA goals for 1 hour peaks, that many of us think are too
>>permissive, specify under 180 mg/dl at 1 hour and under 140 mg/dl at 2
>>hours. I would prefer to be under 140 mg/dl at 1 hour and back to my
>>pre-meal number at 2 hours. I've seen citations suggesting that
>>peripheral damage begins at 140 mg/dl. Obviously, this is incremental
>>damage, so I don't think I hurt my long-term prognosis by that oatmeal
>>experiment, but I sure wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis.
>>>
>>> Isn't that what happens to non-diabetic people?
>>
>>Actually, if I'm remembering research on Jenny-the-Bean's web site, not.
>>Even under a much more intense carb-load, non-diabetics might hit
>>something like 120 mg/dl. I'm at work now, so I can't check.
>>>
>>> ...or what?
>>>
>>> Alan Moorman
>
>Well, you may be right..... Someone was posting a survey
>which mentioned that "over 140 causing damage" thing, but it
>also said that the length of time over 140 could be OK, in
>that the beta cells would recover OK, or, it could be too
>long, and they wouldn't.
>
>I don't think they mentioned where the breaking point was
>between "OK" and "too long".
>
>I think I've been arguing this largely because I think too
>many people jump to too many conclusions, and over-simplify
>complex situations regarding diet and diabetes.
>
>Somehow, people suddenly decide not to eat carbs, for
>example -- regardless of the fact that our bodies NEED some
>carbs. They don't seem to understand that low-carbs, and
>the right carbs would probably be healthier than none at
>all.
>
>I'm not accusing you of this! But, I see SO many posts in
>these news groups where people are going off the deep end
>regarding diet, that it has become a sore-point for me!
>
>I guess I over-react, sometimes!
>
>Alan Moorman

You are basing your answers on vague memories like "Someone
was posting a survey which mentioned that 'over 140 causing
damage" thing'.

How about re-reading some of those things in detail (try
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045678.php as a start,
Jenny succeeds very well in expalining in lay terms), then
deciding whether individual posts are actually as you claim:

"They don't seem to understand that low-carbs, and the right
carbs would probably be healthier than none at all."

No-one posting here at the moment says anything different to
that. The argument is usually about how to define "the right
carbs". You can use whatever method you like; I used, and
promote:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:14:10 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:29:53 -0500, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:04:18 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article >,
>>> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:39:10 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >In article >,
>>> >> > Alan Moorman > wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:18:13 -0500, Alice Faber
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >The sample breakfasts were designed around 2 starch exchanges, 1 fruit
>>> >> >> >exchange, and 1 milk exchange. There's also 1 fat exchange, but no
>>> >> >> >protein. That's 60 g/carbs.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >> Well, I'm not sure what the problem is.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Perhaps I should go back on the exchange diet and see how it
>>> >> >> affects my bG levels?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> All I know is that, when I used it, I lost weight and was
>>> >> >> eating healthily. . .
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I've snipped down to illustrate what the problem with the "canned" Eli
>>> >> >Lilly exchange diet sheet is: 60 grams of carbohydrate for breakfast.
>>> >> >Most type 2s who test have found that they can't tolerate anywhere near
>>> >> >that amount of carbohydrate for breakfast, even those who might not
>>> >> >later in the day.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I don't consider a diet that raises my blood sugar from a fasting level
>>> >> >of 90-100 mg/dl to a peak of 240 mg/dl to be a healthy diet. I don't
>>> >> >care how healthy whole grains are. Too many of them, and it doesn't take
>>> >> >much to get to "too many", isn't healthy, for me, though they might be
>>> >> >for folks who don't have broken metabolisms.
>>> >>
>>> >> Well, I don't know if it does that for me,
>>> >>
>>> >> but, if that peak is gone 2 hours after eating, is that bad?
>>> >
>>> >Even the ADA goals for 1 hour peaks, that many of us think are too
>>> >permissive, specify under 180 mg/dl at 1 hour and under 140 mg/dl at 2
>>> >hours. I would prefer to be under 140 mg/dl at 1 hour and back to my
>>> >pre-meal number at 2 hours. I've seen citations suggesting that
>>> >peripheral damage begins at 140 mg/dl. Obviously, this is incremental
>>> >damage, so I don't think I hurt my long-term prognosis by that oatmeal
>>> >experiment, but I sure wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis.
>>> >>
>>> >> Isn't that what happens to non-diabetic people?
>>> >
>>> >Actually, if I'm remembering research on Jenny-the-Bean's web site, not.
>>> >Even under a much more intense carb-load, non-diabetics might hit
>>> >something like 120 mg/dl. I'm at work now, so I can't check.
>>> >>
>>> >> ...or what?
>>> >>
>>> >> Alan Moorman
>>>
>>> Well, you may be right..... Someone was posting a survey
>>> which mentioned that "over 140 causing damage" thing, but it
>>> also said that the length of time over 140 could be OK, in
>>> that the beta cells would recover OK, or, it could be too
>>> long, and they wouldn't.
>>>
>>> I don't think they mentioned where the breaking point was
>>> between "OK" and "too long".
>>>
>>> I think I've been arguing this largely because I think too
>>> many people jump to too many conclusions, and over-simplify
>>> complex situations regarding diet and diabetes.
>>>
>>> Somehow, people suddenly decide not to eat carbs, for
>>> example
>>
>>Who? Citations please.
>>
>>> -- regardless of the fact that our bodies NEED some
>>> carbs.
>>
>>Again, citations please. Our bodies do NOT need carbs. If you mean we
>>need glucose, well we can get glucose from protein.
>>
>>> They don't seem to understand that low-carbs, and
>>> the right carbs would probably be healthier than none at
>>> all.
>>
>>Again, kindly name these people who advocate eating no foods containing
>>carbohydrates.
>>
>>> I'm not accusing you of this! But, I see SO many posts in
>>> these news groups where people are going off the deep end
>>> regarding diet, that it has become a sore-point for me!
>>
>>Please provide a google groups reference to one of these posts. Drunken
>>Bob doesn't count.
>>
>>> I guess I over-react, sometimes!
>>
>>Sure looks like it.
>>
>>Priscilla
>
>All you have to do is hang around these diabetes and
>nutrition and cooking news groups for a year and you'll see
>it keep cropping up from poor misguided people who are
>trying to lose weight, or whatever is on their little minds.
>
>Don't need no steenkin' cites.
>
>Alan

Yes, we do need "steenkin' cites" when unsubstantiated
statements are made about "poor misguided people" or those
you claim offer them advice.

If it is as you claim - then it should be easy to find
examples using Google Groups search. If not, you are making
unsubstantiated and damaging claims.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

Ozgirl wrote:

>
> When my ex was first diagnosed as a type 2 we were given a
> sugar-free diabetic cookbook. Instead of sugar it contained
> honey and lots of dried fruits.
>

Good Grief! I do remember a time when fructose was advised as a
substitute for baking. That was in the days before little home testing
kits when DMs peed on paper strips and didn't know they were in danger
until the danger was high.

Once DH's mother made him sugar-free pudding with skim milk. She was
highly insulted when he passed it up. There were a lot of carbs in the
corn starch of the pudding mix and the milk, but she thought "low fat-no
sugar" was good for him.

We saw the Endo today. She's happy with A1Cs but he's gained another few
pounds from insulin so we're starting to watch calories more.
--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

Ozgirl wrote:

> Alan Moorman wrote:

>>
>>But, I never found it to be a problem. Small amounts of
>>foods high in carbs aren't a problem, you know. You just
>>have to know enough about nutrition to know that you can
>
> eat
>
>>rice, but limit the quantity.
>
>
> That's the point I am making. A lot don't know about
> nutrition (or even more importantly the effects of certain
> carbs on their bg) and aren't aware they need to educate
> themselves. If you are given a diet by a dietician then
> one's first thought is that it must be right for you as a
> diabetic otherwise you wouldn't be given that said diet?
>
>
>>The exchange diet always did that for me -- guiding me to
>>sensible quantities so that I didn't over-do it!
>
>
> The guidelines I was given weren't sensible, 4 exchanges per
> meal is quite a large amount of carb for starters, no matter
> what "type" of carb you choose as your exchange and there
> was also no allowance made for the high insulin resistance
> that type 2's experience in the a.m.
>
> So on the whole, a newbie who doesn't know they need to
> educate themselves could be floundering from day 1 and end
> up as the statistics we see for kidney, eye, limb, heart etc
> complications we see. A carb exchange diet may be easy but
> not exactly beneficial without at least a basic tutorial
> from the dietician which seems to be lacking.
>

Ozgirl makes a valid point. Too many of those exchange diets are just
handed out without proper education to back it up. Most DMs are not
treated with a team approach and don't have acces to good education. If
we send cancer patients to oncologists, why don't we send our DMs to
Endos and DM teams? Why do we just let the PCPs treat them without
educating them? We wouldn't dream of letting a PCP treat advanced
cancer. If newly diagnosed DMs got the right education, there would be a
lot less complications.

If less people had complications there wouldn't be such prejudice
against DMs like for getting insurance. I think a heroine addict has a
better chance of getting life insurance than a controlled DM

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

Alan Moorman wrote:

>
> I don't understand them saying you needed 4 starches,
> either. Sounds like they don't know what they're talking
> about, and aren't tailor it to you, but to some other, vague
> standard.

Exactly!!

--
Janet Wilder
Bad spelling. Bad punctuation
Good Friends. Good Life

Janet Wilder wrote:
> Ozgirl wrote:
>
>>
>> When my ex was first diagnosed as a type 2 we were given
a
>> sugar-free diabetic cookbook. Instead of sugar it
contained
>> honey and lots of dried fruits.
>>
>
> Good Grief! I do remember a time when fructose was
advised as a
> substitute for baking. That was in the days before little
home testing
> kits when DMs peed on paper strips and didn't know they
were in danger
> until the danger was high.
>
> Once DH's mother made him sugar-free pudding with skim
milk. She was
> highly insulted when he passed it up. There were a lot of
carbs in the
> corn starch of the pudding mix and the milk, but she
thought "low
> fat-no sugar" was good for him.
>
> We saw the Endo today. She's happy with A1Cs but he's
gained another
> few pounds from insulin so we're starting to watch
calories more.

That's good to hear, sorry aobut the calories though

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:05:06 -0600, Janet Wilder
> wrote:

> I can understand eschewing starches, but all carbs aren't starches. I
>think there is nutrition in milk and fruit.

There is nutrition in grass too, but I don't eat it (except
second-hand via the cow:-)

I really don't care what they call them. If it is a food
which spikes my BGs - I change it.

Including milk and fruit. That doesn't mean I never eat it
again but I vary portion size, timing and type until I find
a fruit, portion and timing that doesn't spike me.

I don't eschew starches. I eschew BG spikes.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

In article >,
Alan Moorman > wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:07:38 +1100, "Ozgirl"
> > wrote:
>
> >Alan Moorman wrote:
>
> >>
> >> All you have to do is hang around these diabetes and
> >> nutrition and cooking news groups for a year and you'll
> >see
> >> it keep cropping up from poor misguided people who are
> >> trying to lose weight, or whatever is on their little
> >minds.
> >>
> >> Don't need no steenkin' cites.
> >>
> >> Alan
> >
> >well I have been hangin around the diabetes groups for eight
> >years, and have never seen anyone but drunken Bob "advocate"
> >no carbs. Everyone else carbs in varying degrees. Most eat
> >*mainly* low carb, nutrition-packed vegetables over useless
> >starches. Researching proper nutrition isn't hard and
> >despite a person's diet not conforming to your own personal
> >likes, most would be eating what they need. It is more than
> >possible to eat very well as well as control bg's and lose
> >or maintain weight.
>
> Sorry, but I can't count the number of times a newbie comes
> into one of these groups and says something like: "I want
> to lose weight" or "I want to control my diabetes" and
> their solution is to eliminate carbs.

You misspelled "reduce."

> And they want other
> people's help to figure out:
>
> 1. what carbs are
>
> 2. what foods they are in
>
> Usually these people disappear. But their initial ignorance
> is amazing and depressing.

Reducing carb intake is a usual first step in type 2 treatment, from
what I've seen. It's what helped me get my BG into good control.

Priscilla

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:36:24 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:07:38 +1100, "Ozgirl"
> wrote:
>
>>Alan Moorman wrote:
>
>>>
>>> All you have to do is hang around these diabetes and
>>> nutrition and cooking news groups for a year and you'll
>>see
>>> it keep cropping up from poor misguided people who are
>>> trying to lose weight, or whatever is on their little
>>minds.
>>>
>>> Don't need no steenkin' cites.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>
>>well I have been hangin around the diabetes groups for eight
>>years, and have never seen anyone but drunken Bob "advocate"
>>no carbs. Everyone else carbs in varying degrees. Most eat
>>*mainly* low carb, nutrition-packed vegetables over useless
>>starches. Researching proper nutrition isn't hard and
>>despite a person's diet not conforming to your own personal
>>likes, most would be eating what they need. It is more than
>>possible to eat very well as well as control bg's and lose
>>or maintain weight.
>
>Sorry, but I can't count the number of times a newbie comes
>into one of these groups and says something like: "I want
>to lose weight" or "I want to control my diabetes" and
>their solution is to eliminate carbs. And they want other
>people's help to figure out:
>
>1. what carbs are
>
>2. what foods they are in
>
>Usually these people disappear. But their initial ignorance
>is amazing and depressing.
>
>Alan Moorman

I can't count them either. That is, I can't count the times
"their solution is to eliminate carbs". Could you count just
one or two for us, with a link?

Note that "eliminate" is an absolute. Now, if you had said
"reduce" or "test to see the effect of carbs" I'd have no
problem agreeing.

As to

"1. what carbs are

2. what foods they are in"

Sorry - those questions are usually well answered. I'm
missing the problem there. When people disappear, sometimes
it may be because they received what they needed and moved
on.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:40:39 -0600, Alan Moorman
> wrote:

>
>>You are basing your answers on vague memories like "Someone
>>was posting a survey which mentioned that 'over 140 causing
>>damage" thing'.
>
>Not vague. It was a recently posted study, perhaps in this
>very newsgroup, only a couple of days before this thread
>started.
>
>Remember it?
>
>>Catherine E. Gleason, Michael Gonzalez, Jamie S. Harmon, and R. Paul
>>Robertson. Determinants of glucose toxicity and its reversibility in
>>pancreatic islet Beta-cell line, HIT-T15. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab
>>279: E997-E1002, 2000
>>
>>http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...act/279/5/E997
>>
>
>
>Alan Moorman

We don't seem to be on the same wavelength here. Thank you
for the cite, which is an example of what people are asking
you to do - to support those statements which need support.

And of course I remember that study (I started a thread
discussing it:-) Oddly, it wasn't the one I first thought of
because of the other studies I've read on the subject - see
my initial reply to you.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
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