All of the following were stated with considerable authority and
conviction by various experts on this newsgroup, rec.knives, and
elsewhe

Steel your knife every 5 minutes
Steel your knife before and after every use
Never steel your knife. Use a ceramic rod instead
Use the ceramic rod before and after every use
Use the ceramic rod only when the knife won't cut a tomato (according
to Ben at Edge Pro.)

The Chef's Choice is great
The Chef's Choice sucks

Sharpen a chef's knife to an 18 degree angle

I just got the Apex Edge Pro sharpener and sharpened a cheap stamped
stainless steel knife to 18 degrees. Got the burr and everything
(although I never could get a burr to form at the very heel of the
blade or at the very tip.) It's sharp - feels about like my Sabatiers
after a session on the Chef's Choice 100. Both slice a tomato with
ease.



But the newly sharpened steel knife at 18 degrees is not "razor
sharp." It doesn't feel like a razor blade, and it won't shave my arm.
Why wold it? I understand a razor blade is sharpened to about 12
degrees.

So what's a guy to do?

Use a steel?
Use a ceramic rod every time you use the knife
Use a ceramic rod occasionally?
Sharpen to 15 degrees?
Throw out the Chef's Choice?
Give away the Edge Pro?

Boy, I thought all you had to do was slice the onions, dice the
carrots, and cook up something delicious.

Richard

richard gams surprised us with

All of the following were stated with considerable authority and
conviction by various experts on this newsgroup, rec.knives, and
elsewhe

Steel your knife every 5 minutes
Steel your knife before and after every use
Never steel your knife. Use a ceramic rod instead
Use the ceramic rod before and after every use
Use the ceramic rod only when the knife won't cut a tomato (according
to Ben at Edge Pro.)

The Chef's Choice is great
The Chef's Choice sucks

Sharpen a chef's knife to an 18 degree angle

I just got the Apex Edge Pro sharpener and sharpened a cheap stamped
stainless steel knife to 18 degrees. Got the burr and everything
(although I never could get a burr to form at the very heel of the
blade or at the very tip.) It's sharp - feels about like my Sabatiers
after a session on the Chef's Choice 100. Both slice a tomato with
ease.



But the newly sharpened steel knife at 18 degrees is not "razor
sharp." It doesn't feel like a razor blade, and it won't shave my arm.
Why wold it? I understand a razor blade is sharpened to about 12
degrees.

So what's a guy to do?

Use a steel?
Use a ceramic rod every time you use the knife
Use a ceramic rod occasionally?
Sharpen to 15 degrees?
Throw out the Chef's Choice?
Give away the Edge Pro?

Boy, I thought all you had to do was slice the onions, dice the
carrots, and cook up something delicious.

I've noticed that in many a usenet foodie group there are not so much
foodies, but kitchen equipment fetishists.

Like little boys behind the bikeshed, checking who has the largest knife.

--
Waldo


*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam

In article ,
richard gams wrote:

All of the following were stated with considerable authority and
conviction by various experts on this newsgroup, rec.knives, and
elsewhe

Steel your knife every 5 minutes
Steel your knife before and after every use
Never steel your knife. Use a ceramic rod instead
Use the ceramic rod before and after every use
Use the ceramic rod only when the knife won't cut a tomato (according
to Ben at Edge Pro.)

The Chef's Choice is great
The Chef's Choice sucks

Sharpen a chef's knife to an 18 degree angle

I just got the Apex Edge Pro sharpener and sharpened a cheap stamped
stainless steel knife to 18 degrees. Got the burr and everything
(although I never could get a burr to form at the very heel of the
blade or at the very tip.) It's sharp - feels about like my Sabatiers
after a session on the Chef's Choice 100. Both slice a tomato with
ease.



But the newly sharpened steel knife at 18 degrees is not "razor
sharp." It doesn't feel like a razor blade, and it won't shave my arm.
Why wold it? I understand a razor blade is sharpened to about 12
degrees.

So what's a guy to do?


First of all, unless you plan on shaving your arm with the knife, don't
worry about it not shaving your arm. I've read more than one argument
that this is *not* an appropriate test for kitchen knives.

Having also gone from a Chef's Choice 100 to an Edge Pro Apex, the major
difference I found (besides the fact that *I* can control the sharpening
angle), is how much longer knives stay sharp when done on the Edge Pro.
If you've just gotten the Edge Pro, this is probably not apparent to you
yet (I've had mine almost three years).

Since you are going from a Chef's Choice factory set at twenty-five
degrees to an Edge Pro manually set at eighteen degrees, you're taking
off a *lot* of metal. It is possible that you didn't sharpen long
enough. Ben says (and my experience confirms) that it will take you at
least half an hour of work to get off that much metal.

When I sharpened with the Chef's Choice, I used to steel my knives
before every use - and needed to. About every two months, I'd run the
knives through Stages 2 and 3 on the Chef's Choice, and about once a
year, I'd grind a new edge with Stage 1.

Now that I sharpen with the Edge Pro, I use the ceramic rod on my knives
*only* when they won't cut a tomato, as Ben advises. This happens about
once a month, on a knife used almost every day. About once every six
months, I resharpen on the Edge Pro. Takes about ten minutes, plus
setup and cleanup time (much longer than the Chef's Choice did), but the
extra time pays off over the long run. I also think it's gentler on my
knives.

BTW, you might consider sharpening dedicated slicing knives to fifteen
degrees. The edge may be little fragile at fifteen degrees, so this is
not appropriate for chef's knives. Personally, I have sharpened all my
slicers to fifteen degrees, and my chef's knives to eighteen degrees.

Have you talked to Ben at Edge Pro? He's very helpful if you have
concerns - and I've found his advice quite reliable. When I got my Edge
Pro, I emailed him a few questions. He answered a few hours later, in
excellent detail. That correspondence has been tucked inside my Edge
Pro instruction manual.

And no guest has *ever* asked me how sharp my knives were when I served
them dinner!

--
Seth Goodman

"richard gams" wrote in message
om...
All of the following were stated with considerable authority and
conviction by various experts on this newsgroup, rec.knives, and
elsewhe

Steel your knife every 5 minutes
Steel your knife before and after every use
Never steel your knife. Use a ceramic rod instead
Use the ceramic rod before and after every use
Use the ceramic rod only when the knife won't cut a tomato (according
to Ben at Edge Pro.)

The Chef's Choice is great
The Chef's Choice sucks

Sharpen a chef's knife to an 18 degree angle

I just got the Apex Edge Pro sharpener and sharpened a cheap stamped
stainless steel knife to 18 degrees. Got the burr and everything
(although I never could get a burr to form at the very heel of the
blade or at the very tip.) It's sharp - feels about like my Sabatiers
after a session on the Chef's Choice 100. Both slice a tomato with
ease.



But the newly sharpened steel knife at 18 degrees is not "razor
sharp." It doesn't feel like a razor blade, and it won't shave my arm.
Why wold it? I understand a razor blade is sharpened to about 12
degrees.

So what's a guy to do?


What a guy is to do is to realize that there is no single best way to
sharpen knives. Various methods - if applied properly - give excellent
results. Judge the results, not the method. And, as you seem to be aware,
shaving one's arm with a kitchen knife may impress the ignorant but will
make anyone who is knowledgeable about knives roll their eyes. It is akin to
showing off that your lawn mower blade can slice a ripe tomato.

I used the Chef's Choice for a few years and thought it gave very good
results considering the ease of use. Then I got an Edge Pro and feel it does
even better albeit with more effort. I use 18 degrees for most of my kitchen
knives and 15 for sushi and fillet knives.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Please explain further. It's my understanding that arm shaving is a useful
test for anything that will be used for "push" cutting - e.g. a chef's
knife that is used in a chopping motion, a chisel, an ax, etc.. For
slicing tomatoes, sawing thru rope, etc. ( "pull" cutting) you may want
something with more "tooth".









"Peter Aitken" wrote in message
om...
.. And, as you seem to be aware,
shaving one's arm with a kitchen knife may impress the ignorant but will
make anyone who is knowledgeable about knives roll their eyes. It is akin
to
showing off that your lawn mower blade can slice a ripe tomato.

Waldo Centini wrote in message ...
carrots, and cook up something delicious.

I've noticed that in many a usenet foodie group there are not so much
foodies, but kitchen equipment fetishists.

Like little boys behind the bikeshed, checking who has the largest knife.

Well, this is rec.food.EQUIPMENT after all.

Richard

richard gams surprised us with

Waldo Centini wrote in message
...
carrots, and cook up something delicious.

I've noticed that in many a usenet foodie group there are not so much
foodies, but kitchen equipment fetishists.

Like little boys behind the bikeshed, checking who has the largest
knife.

Well, this is rec.food.EQUIPMENT after all.

Well thank you for pointing that out. Did you crosspost that to
rec.uk.thebleedingobvious?

My remark was in general, and aimed at the fact that while for some people
the equipment HAS an aim, namely being used in the preparation of food. To
most people in groups like this the equipment IS the aim.

--
Waldo


*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam

richard gams wrote:


Steel your knife every 5 minutes
Steel your knife before and after every use
Never steel your knife. Use a ceramic rod instead
Use the ceramic rod before and after every use
Use the ceramic rod only when the knife won't cut a tomato (according
to Ben at Edge Pro.)

Steel frequently. How often? Depends on use but you will learn when it
starts getting dull. I don't have experience with the ceramic rods so no
comment on them.



The Chef's Choice is great
The Chef's Choice sucks

It does not suck at all. There are better methods, but you need more skill
to use them and some people just don't have the ability or the frequency of
use to learn the skills. In that case the Chef's Choice is a smart buy.

"Best" method is a good set of stones, but they must be learned. If I was
to hop into a Ferrarri and take a spin around the track, I'd not be as fast
as the race car driver that does it all the time. Since I won't have the
opportunity very often, I'l never lear to win a race or to use a set of
stones the way a pro does.



Sharpen a chef's knife to an 18 degree angle

I just got the Apex Edge Pro sharpener and sharpened a cheap stamped
stainless steel knife to 18 degrees. Got the burr and everything
(although I never could get a burr to form at the very heel of the
blade or at the very tip.) It's sharp - feels about like my Sabatiers
after a session on the Chef's Choice 100. Both slice a tomato with
ease.

End result is what counts.




But the newly sharpened steel knife at 18 degrees is not "razor
sharp." It doesn't feel like a razor blade, and it won't shave my arm.
Why wold it? I understand a razor blade is sharpened to about 12
degrees.

Could be, but since I don't shave with my knives, I use 18 to 22 degrees. I
let the guys a Gillette do the razors for me. Woodworkers shave their arms
to prove how sharp their chisels and plane blades are. Sort of falls intot
he bigger penis catagory of male rituals. I'd rather cut a pice of wood
with it.




Use a steel?
Yes

Use a ceramic rod every time you use the knife
Use a ceramic rod occasionally?

Don't have one.


Sharpen to 15 degrees?
Throw out the Chef's Choice?
Give away the Edge Pro?

Nah, they are both good tools that work for most of us.


Boy, I thought all you had to do was slice the onions, dice the
carrots, and cook up something delicious.

And shave your ar to show the guys at work how god you can sharpen kinves.

I use a Gatco system of stones and a guide. Steel when needed. If I was
doing it over, I'd look at the Edge Pro. I like to tinker wiht things like
that. My wife would use the Chef's Choice.

Send them both to me if you take another path to sharpeing nirvana.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"Jack Denver" wrote in message
...
Please explain further. It's my understanding that arm shaving is a
useful
test for anything that will be used for "push" cutting - e.g. a chef's
knife that is used in a chopping motion, a chisel, an ax, etc.. For
slicing tomatoes, sawing thru rope, etc. ( "pull" cutting) you may want
something with more "tooth".


I have never heard of this distinction between push and pull cutting so I
cannot help you. But I think it's a mistake to liken chopping with a chef's
knife to use of an ax or chisel. Even when chopping, the edge of the knife
slides along the food for a short distance - and hence cuts it. I guess this
would be "pull" cutting in your terminology. A knife that can shave your arm
hairs may be "sharper" in some technical sense, but it offers no advantages
to the cook and in fact may be inferior for certain kitchen cutting tasks.
In addition it takes more work to sharpen and has an edge that is more
easily damaged.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Seth Goodman wrote in message ...
First of all, unless you plan on shaving your arm with the knife, don't
worry about it not shaving your arm. I've read more than one argument
that this is *not* an appropriate test for kitchen knives.

Having also gone from a Chef's Choice 100 to an Edge Pro Apex, the major
difference I found (besides the fact that *I* can control the sharpening
angle), is how much longer knives stay sharp when done on the Edge Pro.
If you've just gotten the Edge Pro, this is probably not apparent to you
yet (I've had mine almost three years).

Since you are going from a Chef's Choice factory set at twenty-five
degrees to an Edge Pro manually set at eighteen degrees, you're taking
off a *lot* of metal. It is possible that you didn't sharpen long
enough. Ben says (and my experience confirms) that it will take you at
least half an hour of work to get off that much metal.

When I sharpened with the Chef's Choice, I used to steel my knives
before every use - and needed to. About every two months, I'd run the
knives through Stages 2 and 3 on the Chef's Choice, and about once a
year, I'd grind a new edge with Stage 1.

Now that I sharpen with the Edge Pro, I use the ceramic rod on my knives
*only* when they won't cut a tomato, as Ben advises. This happens about
once a month, on a knife used almost every day. About once every six
months, I resharpen on the Edge Pro. Takes about ten minutes, plus
setup and cleanup time (much longer than the Chef's Choice did), but the
extra time pays off over the long run. I also think it's gentler on my
knives.

BTW, you might consider sharpening dedicated slicing knives to fifteen
degrees. The edge may be little fragile at fifteen degrees, so this is
not appropriate for chef's knives. Personally, I have sharpened all my
slicers to fifteen degrees, and my chef's knives to eighteen degrees.

Have you talked to Ben at Edge Pro? He's very helpful if you have
concerns - and I've found his advice quite reliable. When I got my Edge
Pro, I emailed him a few questions. He answered a few hours later, in
excellent detail. That correspondence has been tucked inside my Edge
Pro instruction manual.

And no guest has *ever* asked me how sharp my knives were when I served
them dinner!

Actually, I haven't sharpened my old Chef's Choice sharpened knives
yet. I was just experimenting with a cheap stainless knife (that the
Edge Pro sharpened every bit as sharp as the much more expensive
forged knives that had been through the Chef's Choice.)

Thanks for your very helpful comments.

Richard

Andy Katz wrote in message . ..
On 15 Feb 2004 03:59:31 -0800, (richard gams)
wrote:

Use a steel?
Use a ceramic rod every time you use the knife

This is my approach. By ceramic rod, do you mean a single rod with a
handle, a ceramic "steel"? That's what I use. I have steels made of
metal, but I use my ceramics, usually prior to a session, or in the
midst, as the need arises. I cook professionally, so it's not unusual
for my edge to degrade in the middle of something.

Use a ceramic rod occasionally?
Sharpen to 15 degrees?
Throw out the Chef's Choice?
Give away the Edge Pro?

Toss the CC, keep the EP;-)

Angle depends on the knife. My chef's knife is a thin-bladed Masahiro
in carbon steel. It's edge is find and delicate. I do use the Apex on
it once in a while, but for sharpening I mainly use the Spyderco
Sharpmaker, placing the rods in the 30 (15 + 15) position. My utility
knife is also thin-bladed, but made from stainless chrome-moly
(Goldhamster), so I also use 30 degree position on the Sharpmaker for
it. Its blade is a bit small for the Apex.

My third main knife is a Sanelli slicer. It's stamped, but of
excellent design. Because the edge isn't as delicate as the other two,
I use the 40 degree setting on the Sharpmaker, and 20 for each side
when touching it up on the Apex.

Similarly, I would use at least 20 degrees for a Henckels or Wusthof
chef's knife, less for a thinner bladed, more delicate edge.

Keep using the Apex (it does take some practice), and grind and
maintain edges that feel comfortable and right. Time and practice
will reveal your best overall maintenance strategy:-)

Andy Katz


Thanks Andy - all good comments.

Richard

In that case I disagree with what you said. The distinction between push and
pull cutting is real. For push cutting a shaving sharp knife does offer
advantages. A mirror smooth edge is no less durable than a "toothy" edge -
durability is more a function of grinding angles. It does take a little more
work to get that mirror edge but not much.

Chopping is pretty much a pure push cutting activity - the knife blade comes
straight down thru the food as the tip of the blade acts as a pivot. Think
of a paper cutter, which also works best with a razor sharp blade. The
problem is that a chef's knife also gets used for pull cutting
(slicing/sawing) type activities so that the edge of a chef's knife is a
compromise. Other knifes are used only for pull cutting so a toothy edge
is more appropriate.


"Peter Aitken" wrote in message
om...
"Jack Denver" wrote in message
...
Please explain further. It's my understanding that arm shaving is a
useful
test for anything that will be used for "push" cutting - e.g. a
chef's
knife that is used in a chopping motion, a chisel, an ax, etc.. For
slicing tomatoes, sawing thru rope, etc. ( "pull" cutting) you may
want
something with more "tooth".


I have never heard of this distinction between push and pull cutting so I
cannot help you. But I think it's a mistake to liken chopping with a
chef's
knife to use of an ax or chisel. Even when chopping, the edge of the knife
slides along the food for a short distance - and hence cuts it. I guess
this
would be "pull" cutting in your terminology. A knife that can shave your
arm
hairs may be "sharper" in some technical sense, but it offers no
advantages
to the cook and in fact may be inferior for certain kitchen cutting tasks.
In addition it takes more work to sharpen and has an edge that is more
easily damaged.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

I have never heard of this distinction between push and pull cutting so I
cannot help you. But I think it's a mistake to liken chopping with a
chef's
knife to use of an ax or chisel. Even when chopping, the edge of the knife
slides along the food for a short distance - and hence cuts it. I guess
this
would be "pull" cutting in your terminology. A knife that can shave your
arm
hairs may be "sharper" in some technical sense, but it offers no
advantages
to the cook and in fact may be inferior for certain kitchen cutting tasks.
In addition it takes more work to sharpen and has an edge that is more
easily damaged.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity. If a blade of any sort is sharpest when
the angle is very shallow, what would be the advantage apart from edge
durability to using a larger angle? excluding cleavers which I imagine
would be used for chopping rather than cutting, so would possibly need a
more robust edge I have found my knives cutting more smoothly since I got a
steel, but I assume the smoothing quality of the steel may have something to
do with reducing the friction between the food and the blade rather than
improving the edge on a freshly sharpened knife.

John

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message . com...
Throw out the Chef's Choice?
Give away the Edge Pro?

Nah, they are both good tools that work for most of us.
Send them both to me if you take another path to sharpeing nirvana.

I was sure someone would ask that - you're first on the list if I
decide that sharpening knives is so much trouble that after I win the
lottery, I'll just run over to Sur La Table a pick up some new ones
every time the old ones get dull.;-)

Richard.

It's all about durability of the edge. Japanese sushi knives have very small
angles and cut like razors. But they must be handled carefully and used only
to cut fish. Some people who sharpen their own knives put small angles on
them ..they cut wonderfully but require frequent touchup. A broader angle
will last longer without repair and will withstand better being put in the
dishwasher, being knocked around in a drawer with other knives, etc. and so
this the factory edge that many knives get.

"John Bailey" wrote in message
...
Just to satisfy my own curiosity. If a blade of any sort is sharpest when
the angle is very shallow, what would be the advantage apart from edge
durability to using a larger angle? excluding cleavers which I imagine
would be used for chopping rather than cutting, so would possibly need a
more robust edge I have found my knives cutting more smoothly since I got
a
steel, but I assume the smoothing quality of the steel may have something
to
do with reducing the friction between the food and the blade rather than
improving the edge on a freshly sharpened knife.

John