On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:32:05 -0500,VtSkier, wrote

bobbie sellers wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:02:37 -0500,Matt Giwer, wrote

wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.
a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.
Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?
One presumes what about the nature of the drink? Was it made from
the bean? Did it contain leaves? How was it prepared? One presumes it
was whatever they considered the best quality but we have no idea what
they thought that was. If we are just talking the bean the preparation
is trivial independent of the quality of the bean. Consider it like
gourmet coffee. Other than civet coffee it is all the same process.

And then who made it? The cost would be the cost of keeping that
person employed or alive or whatever. Clearly it would cost more if a
priest made it than a slave but it could have been a cheap apprentice
priest and slave for display who had to be kept in expensive clothing
to show of the emperor wealth.

And a dozen other factors such as did the great beans grow in his
backyard or in the farthest reaches of the empire?

All of this means we may never know what it cost. And if my some
miracle we found all the factors above translating that into dollars
would be near impossible because the basis for the economy was entirely
different. In a well-run economy slaves cost more than share-croppers.
In a hierarchical system with great rewards at the top an apprentice
priest may work for scraps for the opportunity.

From the chocolate FAQ:

1.1 What is chocolate? Where does it come from?

Chocolate is a food made from the seeds of a tropical tree called
the cacao. These trees flourish in warm, moist climates. Most of the
world's cacao beans come from West Africa, where Ghana, the Ivory Coast
and Nigeria are the largest producers. Because of a spelling error,
probably by English traders long ago, these beans became known as cocoa
beans.

-=-=-=-=-

1.2 What is the history of chocolate?

(Excerpted with permission from the Godiva WWW site)

* In 600 A.D. the Mayans migrated into the northern regions of South
America, establishing the earliest known cocoa plantations in the Yucatan.
It has been argued that the Mayans had been familiar with cocoa several
centuries prior to this date. They considered it a valuable commodity,
used both as a means of payment and as units of calculation.

* Mayans and Aztecs took beans from the "cacao" tree and made a drink they
called "xocolatl." Aztec Indian legend held that cacao seeds had been
brought from Paradise and that wisdom and power came from eating the fruit
of the cacao tree..

* The word "chocolate" is said to derive from the Mayan "xocolatl"; cacao
from the Aztec "cacahuatl". The Mexican Indian word "chocolate" comes from
a combination of the terms choco ("foam") and atl ("water"); early
chocolate was only consumed in beverage form.

In addition it has been said that the Aztec preparation included
corn meal.

As for how much it cost it was a luxury on the order of
a fine wine for the Aztec and use was reserved to the powerful.

snip of old sig file

How much of this can I believe since the quote doesn't even get the
geography right?

What is wrong with the geography?
Cacao started as a New World crop and imperial colonizers moved it
to Old World regions where it could be farmed with native labor. Most
likely originally with slave labor just underpaid children most often
today.
Curious thing is that most of the African children involved in
cacao cultivation have never tasted the end product. They couldn't
afford Western prices in any event.

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

On Feb 12, 1:02 pm, BK wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:28:48 -0500, Bob Kolker wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I can't find any referrence of cocaine being present in
cocoa. Caffein, yes, but not cocaine.

The coke is in the leaf, not the seed.

Bob Kolker

Um, guys? You're confusing two entirely different plants:

Coca (from whence comes cocaine) - Erythroxylum coca
Cocoa (from whence comes chocolate) - Theobroma cacao

BK (back to lurk mode)

Although the original post referred to cocoa, I assumed that he was
referring to a liquid extract from Erythroxylon coca, but if he is
quoting Cortez, it is unlikely that the latter would have known his
coca form his cocoa. (from cacao).


Cormac.

bobbie sellers wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:32:05 -0500,VtSkier, wrote

bobbie sellers wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:02:37 -0500,Matt Giwer, wrote

wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.
a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.
Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?
One presumes what about the nature of the drink? Was it made from
the bean? Did it contain leaves? How was it prepared? One presumes it
was whatever they considered the best quality but we have no idea what
they thought that was. If we are just talking the bean the preparation
is trivial independent of the quality of the bean. Consider it like
gourmet coffee. Other than civet coffee it is all the same process.

And then who made it? The cost would be the cost of keeping that
person employed or alive or whatever. Clearly it would cost more if a
priest made it than a slave but it could have been a cheap apprentice
priest and slave for display who had to be kept in expensive clothing
to show of the emperor wealth.

And a dozen other factors such as did the great beans grow in his
backyard or in the farthest reaches of the empire?

All of this means we may never know what it cost. And if my some
miracle we found all the factors above translating that into dollars
would be near impossible because the basis for the economy was entirely
different. In a well-run economy slaves cost more than share-croppers.
In a hierarchical system with great rewards at the top an apprentice
priest may work for scraps for the opportunity.
From the chocolate FAQ:

1.1 What is chocolate? Where does it come from?

Chocolate is a food made from the seeds of a tropical tree called
the cacao. These trees flourish in warm, moist climates. Most of the
world's cacao beans come from West Africa, where Ghana, the Ivory Coast
and Nigeria are the largest producers. Because of a spelling error,
probably by English traders long ago, these beans became known as cocoa
beans.

-=-=-=-=-

1.2 What is the history of chocolate?

(Excerpted with permission from the Godiva WWW site)

* In 600 A.D. the Mayans migrated into the northern regions of South
America, establishing the earliest known cocoa plantations in the Yucatan.
It has been argued that the Mayans had been familiar with cocoa several
centuries prior to this date. They considered it a valuable commodity,
used both as a means of payment and as units of calculation.

* Mayans and Aztecs took beans from the "cacao" tree and made a drink they
called "xocolatl." Aztec Indian legend held that cacao seeds had been
brought from Paradise and that wisdom and power came from eating the fruit
of the cacao tree..

* The word "chocolate" is said to derive from the Mayan "xocolatl"; cacao
from the Aztec "cacahuatl". The Mexican Indian word "chocolate" comes from
a combination of the terms choco ("foam") and atl ("water"); early
chocolate was only consumed in beverage form.

In addition it has been said that the Aztec preparation included
corn meal.

As for how much it cost it was a luxury on the order of
a fine wine for the Aztec and use was reserved to the powerful.

snip of old sig file

How much of this can I believe since the quote doesn't even get the
geography right?

What is wrong with the geography?


YUCATAN IS NOT IN THE NORTHERN PART OF SOUTH AMERICA!!!



Cacao started as a New World crop and imperial colonizers moved it
to Old World regions where it could be farmed with native labor. Most
likely originally with slave labor just underpaid children most often
today.
Curious thing is that most of the African children involved in
cacao cultivation have never tasted the end product. They couldn't
afford Western prices in any event.

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

bobbie sellers wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:02:37 -0500,Matt Giwer, wrote
wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.
a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.
Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?
One presumes what about the nature of the drink? Was it made from
the bean? Did it contain leaves? How was it prepared? One presumes it
was whatever they considered the best quality but we have no idea what
they thought that was. If we are just talking the bean the preparation
is trivial independent of the quality of the bean. Consider it like
gourmet coffee. Other than civet coffee it is all the same process.
And then who made it? The cost would be the cost of keeping that
person employed or alive or whatever. Clearly it would cost more if a
priest made it than a slave but it could have been a cheap apprentice
priest and slave for display who had to be kept in expensive clothing
to show of the emperor wealth.
And a dozen other factors such as did the great beans grow in his
backyard or in the farthest reaches of the empire?
All of this means we may never know what it cost. And if my some
miracle we found all the factors above translating that into dollars
would be near impossible because the basis for the economy was entirely
different. In a well-run economy slaves cost more than share-croppers.
In a hierarchical system with great rewards at the top an apprentice
priest may work for scraps for the opportunity.

From the chocolate FAQ:

1.1 What is chocolate? Where does it come from?

Chocolate is a food made from the seeds of a tropical tree called
the cacao. These trees flourish in warm, moist climates. Most of the
world's cacao beans come from West Africa, where Ghana, the Ivory Coast
and Nigeria are the largest producers. Because of a spelling error,
probably by English traders long ago, these beans became known as cocoa
beans.

Actually several non-beans came to be called beans before Linnaeus, coffee
beans for example.

--
How is sending 22,000 troops to Iraq a better plan than sending 130,000
troops to Iraq?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3746
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Larry Shiff http://www.giwersworld.org/computers/newsagent.phtml a8

On Feb 12, 8:02 pm, "bobbie sellers"
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:02:37 -0500,Matt Giwer, wrote





wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.

a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.

Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?

One presumes what about the nature of the drink? Was it made from
the bean? Did it contain leaves? How was it prepared? One presumes it
was whatever they considered the best quality but we have no idea what
they thought that was. If we are just talking the bean the preparation
is trivial independent of the quality of the bean. Consider it like
gourmet coffee. Other than civet coffee it is all the same process.

And then who made it? The cost would be the cost of keeping that
person employed or alive or whatever. Clearly it would cost more if a
priest made it than a slave but it could have been a cheap apprentice
priest and slave for display who had to be kept in expensive clothing
to show of the emperor wealth.

And a dozen other factors such as did the great beans grow in his
backyard or in the farthest reaches of the empire?

All of this means we may never know what it cost. And if my some
miracle we found all the factors above translating that into dollars
would be near impossible because the basis for the economy was entirely
different. In a well-run economy slaves cost more than share-croppers.
In a hierarchical system with great rewards at the top an apprentice
priest may work for scraps for the opportunity.

From the chocolate FAQ:

1.1 What is chocolate? Where does it come from?

Chocolate is a food made from the seeds of a tropical tree called
the cacao. These trees flourish in warm, moist climates. Most of the
world's cacao beans come from West Africa, where Ghana, the Ivory Coast
and Nigeria are the largest producers. Because of a spelling error,
probably by English traders long ago, these beans became known as cocoa
beans.

-=-=-=-=-

1.2 What is the history of chocolate?

(Excerpted with permission from the Godiva WWW site)

* In 600 A.D. the Mayans migrated into the northern regions of South
America, establishing the earliest known cocoa plantations in the Yucatan.
It has been argued that the Mayans had been familiar with cocoa several
centuries prior to this date. They considered it a valuable commodity,
used both as a means of payment and as units of calculation.

* Mayans and Aztecs took beans from the "cacao" tree and made a drink they
called "xocolatl." Aztec Indian legend held that cacao seeds had been
brought from Paradise and that wisdom and power came from eating the fruit
of the cacao tree..

* The word "chocolate" is said to derive from the Mayan "xocolatl"; cacao
from the Aztec "cacahuatl". The Mexican Indian word "chocolate" comes from
a combination of the terms choco ("foam") and atl ("water"); early
chocolate was only consumed in beverage form.

In addition it has been said that the Aztec preparation included
corn meal.

As for how much it cost it was a luxury on the order of
a fine wine for the Aztec and use was reserved to the powerful.

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What comes closest to the elixer is putting several heaping
tablespoons of Ghiradelli cocoa powder in a blender with milk and
blend until frothy. Incredible!

On 18 Feb 2007 21:54:19 ", wrote

On Feb 12, 8:02 pm, "bobbie sellers" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:02:37 -0500,Matt Giwer, wrote


wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.

a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.

Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?

One presumes what about the nature of the drink? Was it made from
the bean? Did it contain leaves? How was it prepared? One presumes it
was whatever they considered the best quality but we have no idea what
they thought that was. If we are just talking the bean the preparation
is trivial independent of the quality of the bean. Consider it like
gourmet coffee. Other than civet coffee it is all the same process.

And then who made it? The cost would be the cost of keeping that
person employed or alive or whatever. Clearly it would cost more if a
priest made it than a slave but it could have been a cheap apprentice
priest and slave for display who had to be kept in expensive clothing
to show of the emperor wealth.

And a dozen other factors such as did the great beans grow in his
backyard or in the farthest reaches of the empire?

All of this means we may never know what it cost. And if my some
miracle we found all the factors above translating that into dollars
would be near impossible because the basis for the economy was entirely
different. In a well-run economy slaves cost more than share-croppers.
In a hierarchical system with great rewards at the top an apprentice
priest may work for scraps for the opportunity.

From the chocolate FAQ:

1.1 What is chocolate? Where does it come from?

Chocolate is a food made from the seeds of a tropical tree called
the cacao. These trees flourish in warm, moist climates. Most of the
world's cacao beans come from West Africa, where Ghana, the Ivory Coast
and Nigeria are the largest producers. Because of a spelling error,
probably by English traders long ago, these beans became known as cocoa
beans.

-=-=-=-=-

1.2 What is the history of chocolate?

(Excerpted with permission from the Godiva WWW site)

* In 600 A.D. the Mayans migrated into the northern regions of South
America, establishing the earliest known cocoa plantations in the Yucatan.
It has been argued that the Mayans had been familiar with cocoa several
centuries prior to this date. They considered it a valuable commodity,
used both as a means of payment and as units of calculation.

* Mayans and Aztecs took beans from the "cacao" tree and made a drink they
called "xocolatl." Aztec Indian legend held that cacao seeds had been
brought from Paradise and that wisdom and power came from eating the fruit
of the cacao tree..

* The word "chocolate" is said to derive from the Mayan "xocolatl"; cacao
from the Aztec "cacahuatl". The Mexican Indian word "chocolate" comes from
a combination of the terms choco ("foam") and atl ("water"); early
chocolate was only consumed in beverage form.

In addition it has been said that the Aztec preparation included
corn meal.

As for how much it cost it was a luxury on the order of
a fine wine for the Aztec and use was reserved to the powerful.


snip of old sig files

What comes closest to the elixer is putting several heaping tablespoons
of Ghiradelli cocoa powder in a blender with milk and blend until
frothy. Incredible!

Don't use too much milk, add hot water instead.
Use unsweetened cocoa with half as much sugar by volume or
equivalent amount of honey which was the sweetner used by Aztecs.
Don't forget the cayenne or the other traditional spices. Closer
to Moctezuma's drink would require the addition of corn meal to
thicken the liquid and add some more carbs to the elixir.

And beat it by hand with a Mexican tool sold at markets or
as I do with hachi(aka chopsticks).

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

On Feb 11, 8:22 am, wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.

a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.

Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?


It seems that, at the time, 10 beans was enough to purchase the
services of a prostitute. If the nib of each bean is one gram and it
takes 25 grams per cup, then each cup would cost the equivalent of 2.5
times a prostitute. Taking a guess that prostitutes today cost $100
(feel free to correct me on this if you have better information) then
a cup of chocolate would be $250.

Hmm, this also gives us the equation that chocolate is two and a half
times better than sex!

On 8 Mar 2007 00:30:14 -0800,"mcdruid", wrote

On Feb 11, 8:22 am, wrote:
Cortes reported that Montezuma drank 50 goblets of (non-sweetened)
cocoa beverage before entering his harem.

a goblet of cocoa was expensive to make in pre-mechanized society.
Even if the laborers were nominally slaves, they had to be fed,
clothed, housed, etc. In fact, the houseservants of a sovereign are
normally well kept.

Is it possible to estimate an equivelant 2007 value of a goblet of
Monteuma's cocoa drink?

It seems that, at the time, 10 beans was enough to purchase the services
of a prostitute. If the nib of each bean is one gram and it takes 25
grams per cup, then each cup would cost the equivalent of 2.5 times a
prostitute. Taking a guess that prostitutes today cost $100 (feel free
to correct me on this if you have better information) then a cup of
chocolate would be $250.

Cost is variable from less than 100 USD to more than 1000 USD not
counting possible alimony required by wife who learns you are playing
around and the salaries of at least two lawyers.

Hmm, this also gives us the equation that chocolate is two and a half
times better than sex!

Depending on who is having sex and who is eating/drinking cocao
derived confection/beverage it may last a lot longer too. Certainly
the weight gain will stick around longer (see tag).

Also 25 grams is nealy an ounce and it takes a lot less cocoa powder
(full fat) to make a good 4 oz. cuppa of god food. But the Aztecs were
all out imperialists and might have confined their decadence to cocao
and cannabilism so for the Emperor to spend a lot on cocao would be
expected,

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.