Okay, folks, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I gotta ask:

Is Guinness being "watered down" of late in the American market?

Background: I spent 10 years drinking Guinnesses and "arf-&-arfs" in the
Irish pubs of Baltimore while cultivating a lust for Celtic music (most of
my love went to contemporary Scots folk fusion, but I digress....). I gave
up that scene in large part about the time Diageo took over Guinness (it had
more to do with forswearing allegiance to real ale, but again I digress...)

At a recent beer geeks' meeting, someone made the accusation that "Guinness
has been watering down their draft stout........"

We went and ordered a pitcher. (A reliable beer bar.)

I'm inclined to agree. If this is the Guinness that fueled many a session
of mine, it's like waking up to find you slept with a female version of Moe
Syzlask, the bartender in "The Simpsons".

Wotthehell?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

"Alexander D. Mitchell IV" wrote in message
...

Okay, folks, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I gotta ask:

Is Guinness being "watered down" of late in the American market?

Which Guinness? The extra stout (the non-pub-draft bottles) has been
*******ized for a couple years now, ever since they shifted the brewing of
it for the American market to Labatt.

The regular draught? I havne't had it recently, but Guinness has just never
been that strong or robust a beer to me to begin with. It's always been a
low body, small beer that simply has a notable roasty component to it. It's
quite possible that they're mucking with the recipe, but I'm skeptical since
it still comes from St James Gate. In the vast majority of the cases I've
seen where people as if Beer X has changed (and always for the worse), the
issue is palate evolution, not recipe modification. Guinness draught never
has been a big beer, and maybe increased consumption of bigger beers is
bringing that fact into sharper relief.

-Steve

The regular draught? I havne't had it recently, but Guinness has just
never been that strong or robust a beer to me to begin with. It's always
been a low body, small beer that simply has a notable roasty component to
it. It's quite possible that they're mucking with the recipe, but I'm
skeptical since it still comes from St James Gate. In the vast majority of
the cases I've seen where people as if Beer X has changed (and always for
the worse), the issue is palate evolution, not recipe modification.
Guinness draught never has been a big beer, and maybe increased
consumption of bigger beers is bringing that fact into sharper relief.

We're talking about the draft. Not the "draft cans", coming out of a
regular nitro tap.

I snuck a sample blind into a recent tasting among a couple
Irish-fiddle-playing Guinness worshippers that also know great beer, in a
flight that included a couple homebrewed "mystery" beers (seemingly mostly
Scottish ales), and the others declared it to be a "weakened porter, not
even trying hard enough". Their jaws crashed when I told them what I had
done. And the tap was in a very reputable beer bar. We were reduced to
shining flashlights through our glasses--"are we supposed to be seeing THAT
much light?"

I'm not asking about the alcoholic strength. I've always known Guinness was
basically a black "session beer," lighter than the average North American
industrial lager, practically a dark mild with lots of roast. I'm
commenting on the body and the mouthfeel. The last sample I had, in a new
pub in town run by a veteran bartender formerly from several of the top beer
bars in the area, was, in my notes, "as if someone had chilled down my pint
with an ice cube".

I'm willing to also acknowledge the prospect that some of my taste buds have
been killed off by a decade or more of imperial stouts/IPAs, barleywines,
meads, etc. But as comparison, I went and sampled other "standards" of my
tasting lexicon, including Wild Goose Oatmeal Stout and Fordham Blue Point
Oyster Stout (both still quite up to snuff) and am seeking out a couple
other standard-bearers (Harviestoun Old Engine Oil, Samuel Smith Oatmeal
Stout, Beamish, etc.) to contrast notes from years ago. So far, my evidence
is that Guinness has, to put it bluntly, become a dud.

Anyone else?

"Alexander D. Mitchell IV" wrote in message
...

I'm not asking about the alcoholic strength.

And I'm not talking about alcoholic strength. I'm talking about body,
mouthfeel, the "size" of the beer, irrespective of alcohol.

I've always known Guinness was basically a black "session beer," lighter
than the average North American industrial lager, practically a dark mild
with lots of roast. I'm commenting on the body and the mouthfeel.

So was I. I've never found it to have a lot of either. It's always been a
light-bodied beer. The nitro dispense and overall character have given it a
bit of a silky mouthfeel that I think the roast character helps contribute
to. But it's never been a very robust beer in terms of body, in my opinion.

So far, my evidence is that Guinness has, to put it bluntly, become a dud.

And it may very well have. As (I think) I mentioned, I really haven't drunk
Guinness enough lately to note. But I've always found that the beer's
reputation and people's impressions of it outpace the reality. Which is why
I'm skeptical of claims of thinning it out.

-Steve

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:47:02 GMT, "Steve Jackson"
wrote:

"Alexander D. Mitchell IV" wrote in message
...



So far, my evidence is that Guinness has, to put it bluntly, become a dud.

And it may very well have. As (I think) I mentioned, I really haven't drunk
Guinness enough lately to note. But I've always found that the beer's
reputation and people's impressions of it outpace the reality. Which is why
I'm skeptical of claims of thinning it out.

I've heard a rumour that they are brewing Guinness in some countries
from shipped concentrate, a la Coca Cola.

It's definitely not as good as it was twenty years or so ago, even in
Ireland (I can remember when you could stick a matchstick in the head
and it would stand upright - those days are long past).

I only ever drink it in Ireland these days, and only then when I can't
get anything better (i.e. when I'm not in Dublin or Cork).




--

Regards

Mike

mikedotroebuckatgmxdotnet

Mike Roebuck wrote:
It's definitely not as good as it was twenty years or so ago, even in
Ireland (I can remember when you could stick a matchstick in the head
and it would stand upright - those days are long past).

When I was a wee lad, we could place a length of rebar
in the head and it would stand in place.
--
Joel Plutchak

Q: What do you get when you cross a blonde and a lawyer?
A: Hey! There're some things even a blonde won't do.

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Joel wrote:

Mike Roebuck wrote:
It's definitely not as good as it was twenty years or so ago, even in
Ireland (I can remember when you could stick a matchstick in the head
and it would stand upright - those days are long past).

When I was a wee lad, we could place a length of rebar
in the head and it would stand in place.

Damn straight, we had to eat our Guinness with a knife and fork!

Mike Roebuck wrote in
:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:47:02 GMT, "Steve Jackson"
wrote:

"Alexander D. Mitchell IV" wrote
in message ...


So far, my evidence is that Guinness has, to put it
bluntly, become a dud.

And it may very well have. As (I think) I mentioned, I
really haven't drunk Guinness enough lately to note. But
I've always found that the beer's reputation and people's
impressions of it outpace the reality. Which is why I'm
skeptical of claims of thinning it out.

It's always been thin.

Now the yellow label...that's become crap in the US thanks to
Labatt.

I suppose one could go to one of the thousands of Guinness fan
sites and track the OG/malt bill, but the current incarnation
matches my memory of it. Guinness is about as close to a Mild
as can be had reliably in the US and I think Guinness has simply
been eclipsed. They haven't become a dud, they have weathered
change poorly. Guinness has become somewhat...trite. Ready-to-
serves...I can't believe how many people drink
mikeshardlemonade...

I think a big part of the "problem" is that Guinness is being
served colder all the time (at the direction of the brewery, not
the distibutors as I understand it).

Also, people seem to think that it is a big beer. Try telling
those next to you that Guinness has similar abv to Coors Light
and they will invariably take it as personal criticism.

FWIW, I still find a properly made pint of Guinness to be very
enjoyable.

I've heard a rumour that they are brewing Guinness in some
countries from shipped concentrate, a la Coca Cola.

I heard that they pay local hookers to jump into the cooled wort
prior to pitching to add a bit more can't-quite-put-my-finger-
on-it character. I also heard that Jim Koch is really a woman
and Mike McMenamin likes the Grateful Dead.

What else have you heard?

It's definitely not as good as it was twenty years or so
ago,

You mentioned evidence previously. What is your evidence?
Recipe change? Mash schedule? Or fond memories? Hell, I have
fond memories of Erlanger and Moosehead... If the trend in the
US is Bigger is Better (How else can anyone explain the godawful
Stone *******s?), then why would Guinness go the other way?

even in Ireland (I can remember when you could stick a
matchstick in the head and it would stand upright - those
days are long past).

You can't do that today? I'll bet I can.

I've been drinking draught Guinness in the US for 20 years.
Unlike Steev, I still drink it. I've noted two changes: It is
now served very cold in many bars and many places don't know how
to serve it ("Don't you love that tornado in the glass?" Uh,
no. I'd rather you did it right.)


Scott

On 05 Jul 2005 13:55:33 EDT, Scott Kaczorowski
wrote:

Mike Roebuck wrote in
:



I think a big part of the "problem" is that Guinness is being
served colder all the time (at the direction of the brewery, not
the distibutors as I understand it).

Do you get two versions of the draught in the US?

Here in the UK we get standard (cold) and extra-cold, on two separate
fonts.


Also, people seem to think that it is a big beer. Try telling
those next to you that Guinness has similar abv to Coors Light
and they will invariably take it as personal criticism.

FWIW, I still find a properly made pint of Guinness to be very
enjoyable.

Define properly-made. The only place I will drink it is in Ireland,
and only then when I can't get Porterhouse or MacGuires stouts, which
are far superior beers. If you haven't been to one, Porterhouse have a
sign in their pubs which lists "what we put in ours" (water, malt,
hops and yeast), and "what they put in theirs" (a longer list of
additives and adjuncts, besides the normal ingredients). They don't
name Guinness on the poster, of course.They don't have to.


I've heard a rumour that they are brewing Guinness in some
countries from shipped concentrate, a la Coca Cola.

I heard that they pay local hookers to jump into the cooled wort
prior to pitching to add a bit more can't-quite-put-my-finger-
on-it character. I also heard that Jim Koch is really a woman
and Mike McMenamin likes the Grateful Dead.

LOL:-)

I don't recall who told me this, but I will do some double-checking.


What else have you heard?

I keep hearing that American beer is rubbish, but I know it's not true
g


It's definitely not as good as it was twenty years or so
ago,

You mentioned evidence previously. What is your evidence?
Recipe change? Mash schedule? Or fond memories?

Oh, definitely fond memories. I suspect the recipe change too, but
have no inside proof.

Hell, I have
fond memories of Erlanger and Moosehead... If the trend in the
US is Bigger is Better (How else can anyone explain the godawful
Stone *******s?), then why would Guinness go the other way?

Ease of production, cost cutting, increasing profits.......


even in Ireland (I can remember when you could stick a
matchstick in the head and it would stand upright - those
days are long past).

You can't do that today? I'll bet I can.

I'd like to see you do it. I can't any more.


I've been drinking draught Guinness in the US for 20 years.
Unlike Steev, I still drink it. I've noted two changes: It is
now served very cold in many bars and many places don't know how
to serve it ("Don't you love that tornado in the glass?" Uh,
no. I'd rather you did it right.)

I started drinking it in the UK when it was available in bottles, and
it was bottle-conditioned. That was over 30 years ago. I've since
drunk it all over Europe, in the US and in Canada too. I may have
drunk it in Australia. I stopped drinking it it a few years ago
because it's become mass-marketed rubbish, and because I can get much,
much better beers here now.

I agree that there is an accepted method of serving it, and that a lot
of bars don't comply. If you drink it in a fake Irish theme pub in
Europe, however, it will be served properly, because the Guinness rep
makes sure the staff are trained (and that's because most of these
pubs are at least part-financed by Guinness anyway).

Guinness these days is about money, not beer.

And they don't get much of mine.


--

Regards

Mike

mikedotroebuckatgmxdotnet

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Is Guinness being "watered down" of late in the American market?

Not that I can tell.

I was in Dublin about a year ago, and the draft Guinness there
is tastes just like the "draft" Guinness you get here in the 16 oz
nitro cans. Albeit maybe fresher tasting. I did notice the
head is a bit more creamier and thinker when it comes out of the draft.
Its either 4.3% ABV, I think ... I can't recall exactly
now off the top of my head.

Now when I was in Belize six month ago, you could get Foreign Export
Guinness,
which was a different beastie altogether, being about 8% ABV.

Then here in California, they sell a "Export Guinness" in bottles,
which I really dislike ... it has the character a lot like the Foreign
Export,
but without the alcohol, about 5% abv I think. For some reason
I always find it vile.

Mike Roebuck wrote in
:

On 05 Jul 2005 13:55:33 EDT, Scott Kaczorowski
wrote:

Mike Roebuck wrote in
m:



I think a big part of the "problem" is that Guinness is
being served colder all the time (at the direction of the
brewery, not the distibutors as I understand it).

Do you get two versions of the draught in the US?

Here in the UK we get standard (cold) and extra-cold, on
two separate fonts.

Never heard of such a thing. We don't do that here, at least not that
I'm aware of ("yet", I suppose). Last I was in England was about two
years ago and I don't remember seeing this sort of setup there,
either. 'Course...I wasn't looking for Guinness.

FWIW, I still find a properly made pint of Guinness to be
very enjoyable.

Define properly-made.

Properly poured/prepared/served. I'm skeptical that the beer itself
has changed significantly.

The only place I will drink it is in Ireland,

:-)

If you
haven't been to one, Porterhouse have a sign in their pubs
which lists "what we put in ours" (water, malt, hops and
yeast), and "what they put in theirs" (a longer list of
additives and adjuncts, besides the normal ingredients).

I assume you mean the Plain:

"A classic modern light stout with the added complexity of a late
kettle hop. Aromatic character. Rich roast, dry, clean and bitter
without any sourness."

"Modern light stout." Heh! Obviously meant to compete directly with
Guinness.

They don't name Guinness on the poster, of course.They
don't have to.

Or they're afraid to.

I looked all over the web for info on this and I couldn't find
anything. I know (?) Guinness uses finings....but adjuncts? If
roasted (unmalted) barley qualifies, then most Stouts are guilty,
including the Plain. I'm very curious as to what might be on that
list. Head stabilizers, ???

I don't recall who told me this, but I will do some
double-checking.

Please do. I'm curious.

What else have you heard?

I keep hearing that American beer is rubbish, but I know
it's not true g

It's mostly true.

You mentioned evidence previously. What is your evidence?
Recipe change? Mash schedule? Or fond memories?

Oh, definitely fond memories. I suspect the recipe change
too, but have no inside proof.

That's the thing, idn't? I've been drinking Guinness here in the
States for 20 years, and I am not struck by huge differences in
Guinness Remembered and Guinness in the Here and Now.

Hell, I have
fond memories of Erlanger and Moosehead... If the trend in
the US is Bigger is Better (How else can anyone explain the
godawful Stone *******s?), then why would Guinness go the
other way?

Ease of production, cost cutting, increasing profits.......

Point taken. 0.025cent per unit saved is $1m earned.

But Guinness doesn't have any real competition here other than maybe
Beamish. Guinness is often the only "dark beer" in a mediocre multi-
tap. If one were to find another Stout on draught (uncommon in my
experience), it would most likely be bigger/sweeter/local. A common
misconception is that Guinness is a big, heavy, alcoholic beer. Maybe
Draught Guinness should be more like the Export...I think that would
be a shame, but I just don't see them going the other way (lighter,
dumber, whateverer).

even in Ireland (I can remember when you could stick a
matchstick in the head and it would stand upright - those
days are long past).

You can't do that today? I'll bet I can.

I'd like to see you do it. I can't any more.

Well. Hell. I guess I'll have to try it. Wood matchstick, no?

I stopped drinking it it a few years ago because it's become
mass-marketed rubbish,

Is it the marketing that makes it rubbish to you?

and because I can get much, much
better beers here now.

Another good point. We have the same "problem." Beers like Guinness
are sure to suffer a bit.

Guinness these days is about money, not beer.

I hear you. I can think of dozens of breweries that aren't in it for
the money. Oh, wait, no I can't...


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA

Mike Roebuck wrote:
On 05 Jul 2005 13:55:33 EDT, Scott Kaczorowski
wrote:


Mike Roebuck wrote in
m:



I think a big part of the "problem" is that Guinness is being
served colder all the time (at the direction of the brewery, not
the distibutors as I understand it).


Do you get two versions of the draught in the US?

Here in the UK we get standard (cold) and extra-cold, on two separate
fonts.

The website for the Beer Store here in Canada (www.thebeerstore.ca)
lists 3 versions of Guinness.

Guinness (Extra Stout)
Brewer Labatt
Alcohol Content 5%
Type of Beer Stout
All the goodness of Guinness. A dark, full flavoured rich stout beer.
Brewed under license from Guinness of Ireland.

Guinness Draught
Brewer Diageo
Alcohol Content 4.1
Type of Beer Stout
The brand is brewed at St. James Gate in Dublin. Made from hops, malt,
yeast and water, the roasting of the Irish barley gives it the
distinctive ruby tint while the yeast assists in firming the creamy head.

Guinness Draught in a Bottle
Brewer Diageo
Alcohol Content 4.2
Type of Beer Stout
Guinness Draught In a Bottle is a smooth, full bodied and creamy beer.
Despite it's body, it is a rather mild and easy drinking beer.

--
Bruce Weaver

www.angelfire.com/wv/bwhomedir

Scott Kaczorowski wrote:
Mike Roebuck wrote:
But Guinness doesn't have any real competition here other than maybe
Beamish. Guinness is often the only "dark beer" in a mediocre multi-
tap. If one were to find another Stout on draught (uncommon in my
experience), it would most likely be bigger/sweeter/local.

Around these parts there are a few bars that have Murphy's
stout on tap. Mostly though if a bar has anything besides NAIL
they'll have Guinness (and Samuel Adams Lager).
--
Joel Plutchak

Q: What do you get when you cross a blonde and a lawyer?
A: Hey! There're some things even a blonde won't do.

I think the whole thought of Guinness being better at it's source
(i.e., Dublin) is hogwash. I've been to Dublin more than a handful of
times. I can take you to a few Irish owned pubs in Philly that pour
just as good of a pint there than at the Gravity bar.

Going back to Porterhouse and Mssrs. Macguire's in Dublin, both brew
IMHO, the best plain porters for the money. Talk about fresh! The few
Irish-style stouts I've tasted here in the Philly area at brewpubs have
out and out sucked the big shillelagh.

As a Irish travel consultant, I recommend to everyone to stop off for a
pint (and lunch) at either brewpub in Dublin and then go to St James's
Gate. All have come back to thank me.

You've gone from Guinness to the wonderous world of Impy stouts, barley
wines and I'm sure Belgians. An old Irish says goes like this, you can
always go home, you just can't stay.

"Scott Kaczorowski" wrote in message
...
Mike Roebuck wrote in
:

Here in the UK we get standard (cold) and extra-cold, on
two separate fonts.

Never heard of such a thing. We don't do that here, at least not that
I'm aware of ("yet", I suppose). Last I was in England was about two
years ago and I don't remember seeing this sort of setup there,
either. 'Course...I wasn't looking for Guinness.

I've seen it a fair amount over there. Tends to show up in the sorts of
places where a lot of lager (and I don't mean good German stuff) would get
consumed. And a lot of Weatherspoon's pubs. Serving Guinness extra cold
kills off what little flavor it already has.

"Modern light stout." Heh! Obviously meant to compete directly with
Guinness.

And it's fabulously good. As are all of Porterhouse's beers, in my
experience.

But Guinness doesn't have any real competition here other than maybe
Beamish.

Maybe it ends up being a bit of a regional thing, but I've lived in areas
where Murphy's is arguably more popular than Beamish. They're all pretty
damn similar, though, as to be nearly interchangeable.

Another good point. We have the same "problem." Beers like Guinness
are sure to suffer a bit.

As are any of the beers that wowed us once upon a time, especially back in
the days where we were discovering the vast new world of flavorful beers.
There are beers that underwhelm me in ways now, but I realize it's because
my tastes have been exposed to more, and often bigger, things and they've
evolved. That doesn't mean every last beer I drank a dozen years ago has
been "dumbed down," which is a common mistake I see people make when
wondering if a beer has changed.

-Steve