Lew Bryson wrote:
Cynical beer types have suggested that "Kostritzer" ain't making [Maibock],
and that their new parent organization are just using the Kostritzer brand
to ship a somewhat less than common beer type.

Which brewery do cynical beer types believe are brewing it?
--
Joel Plutchak "I'm in beer class / Every Thursday night"
- "Sinister Foxx", _Title TK_, The Breeders

Lew Bryson wrote:

I seem to remember that Carol Stoudt produces a very fine Maibock.
I
haven't encountered any since leaving PA but it should be a worthy
substitute.

Bill, I like Carol, I like her head brewer Marc a lot, and I like
their
Maibock, but...we're adults he it just ain't the Kostritzer. Not
even
close.

Nicely put. German brewing may be in a state of decline,
but American brewing has a lot more INclining to do
before more than a scant few American beers can touch
the quality of their German role models. Particularly
in terms of malt character. I have never gotten a
satisfactory explanation for why our brewers can't
reproduce Germany malt character. The "Proprietary
Magical German Brewers' Gnomes" theory is still the
leading candidate. I think some intrepid beer writer
should investigate the matter more thoroughly.

This is perhaps the 2nd-best maibock I've ever had, and what I'm
remembering as the best was almost 20 years ago and was enjoyed on a
perfect
night...which may be coloring my memory.

I remember being dazzled by Ayinger Maibock around
then. It was the first time I ever got that pure melanoidin
blast you only get from German bocks, and the experience
has never been duplicated since (including from subsequent
Ayingers).

This is great beer.

Trader Joe's has carried the K=F6stritzer M=E4rzen; GOOD,
but not quite in the Munich league. But the Schwartzbier
proves that they know how to do malt, and the Maibock
sounds like one to be sought out. Do you know how
widely it's being distributed? Draft only?

"Jon Binkley" wrote in message
Trader Joe's has carried the Köstritzer Märzen; GOOD,
but not quite in the Munich league. But the Schwartzbier
proves that they know how to do malt, and the Maibock
sounds like one to be sought out. Do you know how
widely it's being distributed? Draft only?

Draft only, and not very widely at all. The kegs I had both came from a
wholesaler in western PA who had the beer for the whole state, and I haven't
talked to anyone else who's even seen it. Sorry.

--
Lew Bryson

"As for talking shit in this NG, Lew, you're the undisputed king, and
that's no SHITE." -- Bob Skilnik, 1/31/02

www.lewbryson.com

"Joris Pattyn" wrote in message
-
"Lew Bryson" schreef in bericht
Warsteiner, believe it or don't. You know, Warsteiner is SO MUCH MORE a
likely brewer of a maibock than Kostritzer...

Don't say it's impossible, but in that case, wouldn't Bitburger/Th. Simon
not be more logical, as parent company? Or are Bitburger and Warsteiner
already owned by the same conglomerate, these days? Wouldn't surprise me,
at the speed it goes over there.

No, my mistake, it IS Bitburger. Thinking Bitburger and writing Warsteiner.
Sorry. I'm not going to say "Bitburger, Warsteiner, eh!" because I don't
really mean that... Thanks for the correction, Joris.


--
Lew Bryson

"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
www.lewbryson.com

Scott Kaczorowski wrote:

Didn't know Kostritzer made a Maibock. That's about
as 180 from their flagship product (?) as they might
get.

Only in terms of color. When it's on, the Schwartzbier
is one MALTY sumbitch. If the Maibock is half as malty
as that, it's one to be reckoned with. But then, you don't
"get" malt, do you?

I'll go so
far as to say that Bocks and Dopplebocks juice my
lizard not.

WAB.

Say... didn't Bruels disappear just about the same time
Scott started connecting with his inner boof so publically?
Coincidence? Ha! That's what they said about Beercommie!

"Jon Binkley" wrote in
news:1116961875.729848.249260
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Scott Kaczorowski wrote:

Didn't know Kostritzer made a Maibock. That's
about
as 180 from their flagship product (?) as they
might
get.

Only in terms of color.

KSchwartzbier == KMaibock 'cept for SRM?

When it's on, the Schwartzbier
is one MALTY sumbitch.

Not in my experience. When Kostritzer Schwartz is
on, it's dry, dark, medium-low body, and starkly
beautiful.

What do you mean by "MALTY"? Sweetness?
Body/mouthfeel?

If by "MALTY" you mean "lack of hops" then...maybe.
But I know you don't mean that.

If the Maibock is half as malty
as that, it's one to be reckoned with.

We can NOT be talking about the same two beers, so I
guess I'm Polish. A Maibock half as malty as
Kostrizer black would be Budweiser.

What am I missing?

But then, you don't "get" malt, do you?

I love malt. Without malt I'd have to become a wine
snob.

If you imply that my complete and utter distaste for
a ****ing mess of a beer like Staropromen means I am
a hophead, you are mistaken.

I'll go so
far as to say that Bocks and Dopplebocks juice my
lizard not.

WAB.

Yes.

Say... didn't Bruels disappear just about the same
time
Scott started connecting with his inner boof so
publically?

No. Knick is long gone. Do the deja. Report back.

Coincidence? Ha! That's what they said about
Beercommie!

Me as John Sherman/Staradumsky? That is a true
insult. Lemme know when you start getting
threatening phone calls in the middle of the night
and I'll stop.

Dude (can I call you "Dude"?):

Lucky Baldwins (www.luckybaldwins.com) IPA
Festival: Saturday 18th June - Sunday, 26th June
2005.

Real Ale Fest 'Diego
(www.pizzaport.com/RealAle2005.html) Fri & Sat, June
10th & 11th, 2005!. Starting at 4 pm on Fri and 11
am on Saturday until closing both days!

Jackson and I are doing both. Ubercommander
Honeybunch is driving. Get your ass down here.


Scott

On Tue, 24 May 2005, Jon Binkley wrote:

Lew Bryson wrote:

I seem to remember that Carol Stoudt produces a very fine Maibock.
I
haven't encountered any since leaving PA but it should be a worthy
substitute.

Bill, I like Carol, I like her head brewer Marc a lot, and I like
their
Maibock, but...we're adults he it just ain't the Kostritzer. Not
even
close.

Nicely put. German brewing may be in a state of decline,
but American brewing has a lot more INclining to do
before more than a scant few American beers can touch
the quality of their German role models. Particularly
in terms of malt character. I have never gotten a
satisfactory explanation for why our brewers can't
reproduce Germany malt character. The "Proprietary
Magical German Brewers' Gnomes" theory is still the
leading candidate. I think some intrepid beer writer
should investigate the matter more thoroughly.


Dragging their heels on decoction mashing?

Scott Kaczorowski wrote:

Didn't know Kostritzer made a Maibock. That's
about
as 180 from their flagship product (?) as they
might
get.

Only in terms of color.

KSchwartzbier == KMaibock 'cept for SRM?

I didn't imply "==" except for color. I implied "not 180
from" except for color. Actually, I have no bloody
idea what K. Maibock is like. For all I know it's jett black
and reeks of stale coffee, but let's ASSume for the sake
of virtually beating eachother about the face and neck
that it falls within the general specs of Maibocks we
are both familiar with.

When it's on, the Schwartzbier
is one MALTY sumbitch.

Not in my experience. When Kostritzer Schwartz is
on, it's dry, dark, medium-low body, and starkly
beautiful.

Then either you haven't had it really "on", or you
really CAN'T taste malt. When Koestritzer Schwartz is
on, it's dry, MALTY, dark, medium-low body, and starkly
beautiful.

What do you mean by "MALTY"? Sweetness?
Body/mouthfeel?

If by "MALTY" you mean "lack of hops" then...maybe.
But I know you don't mean that.

I mean MALTY FLAVOR. That which the textbooks
tell us is imparted by a group of chemicals called
"melanoidins" produced in the mashing process
by reactions between amino acids and carbohydrates.
NOT sweet flavor. MALT flavor can come along with
sweetness, but it doesn't need to. My favorite maerzens
(all German) are not sweet, but they are very MALTY.
(Most American maerzens are not MALTY, but
are insipidly sweet.) Koestritzer Schwartzbier
is not sweet, but (when it's on) it's very MALTY.

If the Maibock is half as malty
as that, it's one to be reckoned with.

We can NOT be talking about the same two beers, so I
guess I'm Polish. A Maibock half as malty as
Kostrizer black would be Budweiser.

What am I missing?

MALT.

But then, you don't "get" malt, do you?

I love malt. Without malt I'd have to become a wine
snob.

If you imply that my complete and utter distaste for
a ****ing mess of a beer like Staropromen means I am
a hophead, you are mistaken.

Not at all. Blindness to malt flavor does not automatically
a hophead make. But it might make one consider Staropramen
a ****ing mess of a beer.

Dude (can I call you "Dude"?):

Call me anything but "late for dinner".

Jackson and I are doing both. Ubercommander
Honeybunch is driving. Get your ass down here.

Alas, June is already stocked to the gills with family
and work related travel. Some day, though... I'll bring
MALT.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

I have never gotten a
satisfactory explanation for why our brewers can't
reproduce Germany malt character. The "Proprietary
Magical German Brewers' Gnomes" theory is still the
leading candidate. I think some intrepid beer writer
should investigate the matter more thoroughly.


Dragging their heels on decoction mashing?

Apparently not. Many German brewers no longer decoct,
but still are able to produce fabulously malty beers with
careful step mashes. Why can't Yanks do it? It's gotta
be the Gnomes.

"Maillard Reaction Fan" wrote in
oups.com:

Scott Kaczorowski wrote:

Didn't know Kostritzer made a Maibock. That's
about
as 180 from their flagship product (?) as they
might
get.

Only in terms of color.

KSchwartzbier == KMaibock 'cept for SRM?

I didn't imply "==" except for color.

Body, abv, ... though I agree that neither is hopped to large degree.

I implied "not 180 from" except for color.

My bad.

but let's ASSume for the sake
of virtually beating eachother about the face and neck
that it falls within the general specs of Maibocks we
are both familiar with.

I ASSume we're not talking Cranberry Lambic here and that the basic
parameters of a Maibock are known outside of American brewpubs.

When it's on, the Schwartzbier
is one MALTY sumbitch.
[...]
What do you mean by "MALTY"? Sweetness?
Body/mouthfeel?

If by "MALTY" you mean "lack of hops" then...maybe.
But I know you don't mean that.

I mean MALTY FLAVOR.

Then I guess I've not had it both on tap and in bottles many, many times.
It's a dry, relatively low-gravity black beer. And I understand the
difference between body and sweetness. The former without the latter is a
feat of brewing that I have accomplished only rarely.

The flavor of the malt itself? I'll buy that - that's why we have
different kinds of malt.

I do not think of Kostritzer Schwartz as a malty beer. Flavorful, but not
malty. It certainly has more body and malt character than Bud,
but...malty? Not in my opinion, not Kostritzer. Schwartzbier ain't half
as "malty" (whatever that means) as Munich Dunkel which ain't half as
"malty" (whatever that means) as a Maibock.

That which the textbooks
tell us is imparted by a group of chemicals called
"melanoidins"

In the case of the two beers at hand, Munich malt can be used in both as
can Pils malt. The former is high in melanoidins, the latter is not. Not
to wiggle, but I guess it can depend on the grain bill. Schwartzbier tends
(?) to use Munich as a base (and is therefore the less-malty cousin of
Munich Dunkel) and Hellesbock tends (?) to use Pils malt as a base (with
varying additions of Munich). Therefore (?), the Schwartz may have a
higher percentage of melanoidins vs. O/FG, but...

(Where's George Fix when you need him?)

Also, melanoidins aren't necessarily "malty". They can be toasty, bready,
.... Aromatic malt is a good thing to keep around, IMO.

Both styles use (or can use) Pils and/or Munich malt as a base. In the
case of Schwartzbier, there is a small addition of dark malt basically for
color only (hence the misnomer of a "black Pils").

So, short point long, I could get on board with "Schwartzbier has more malt
character than Hellesbock" but I wouldn't be thrilled about it. But
maltier? No way.

produced in the mashing process
by reactions between amino acids and carbohydrates.
NOT sweet flavor.

If sweetness were maltiness on its own, MGD would be malty.

If the Maibock is half as malty
as that, it's one to be reckoned with.

We can NOT be talking about the same two beers, so I
guess I'm Polish. A Maibock half as malty as
Kostrizer black would be Budweiser.

What am I missing?

MALT.

So you imply (?) that the Schwartzbier is (theoretically 'cause neither of
us has had the K'Mai) twice as malty as the Maibock. Huh.

What is a Schwartzbierish? 1048ish? A Maibockish has got to be what?
1070ish? How can the Schwartz be maltier than the Mai? Because of the
dark malt? By "malt flavor" do you mean "malt character"?

I "get" malt. I don't "get" you.

Alas, June is already stocked to the gills with family
and work related travel. Some day, though... I'll bring MALT.

50lb sacks, finished product... I have no preference.

Visit some time, you ****ing asshole. I'm not proud. I'll take lessons.
Jackson schools me all the time.


Scott

Scott Kaczorowski wrote:

I do not think of Kostritzer Schwartz as a malty beer. Flavorful, but not
malty. It certainly has more body and malt character than Bud,
but...malty? Not in my opinion, not Kostritzer. Schwartzbier ain't half
as "malty" (whatever that means) as Munich Dunkel which ain't half as
"malty" (whatever that means) as a Maibock.

For whatever reason, I taste a strong MALTY flavor in well-kept,
draft Koestritzer Schwartzbier. Perhaps it's a difference in the
relative freshness of our samples, or in our relative sensitivities
to MALTY flavor. FWIW, I've never tasted MALTY flavor in bottled
Koestritzer, which I've always attributed to age or abuse.

That which the textbooks
tell us is imparted by a group of chemicals called
"melanoidins"

In the case of the two beers at hand, Munich malt can be used in both as
can Pils malt. The former is high in melanoidins, the latter is not.

Straight from the maltster, yes. But Pils malt is quite capable of
producing tons of melanoidins IN THE MASH, which is why
Munich Helles is so MALTY. Which is why the wonderful Czech
lagers you love to hate so much are so MALTY.

(Where's George Fix when you need him?)

Probably discussing the matter with Anton Dreher.

So, short point long, I could get on board with "Schwartzbier has more malt
character than Hellesbock" but I wouldn't be thrilled about it. But
maltier? No way.

Who said it was MALTIER? I simply said both were MALTY. My ideal
Hell**bock is MALTIER than my ideal Schwartzbier.

We can NOT be talking about the same two beers, so I
guess I'm Polish. A Maibock half as malty as
Kostrizer black would be Budweiser.

What am I missing?

MALT.

So you imply (?) that the Schwartzbier is (theoretically 'cause neither of
us has had the K'Mai) twice as malty as the Maibock. Huh.

Jeebus. Are you sure you're not Nick????

No! Koestritzer Schwartz is MALTY. Maibocks should be MALTY.
If I had to put money on, I'm guessing the Maibock is MALTIER.

What is a Schwartzbierish? 1048ish? A Maibockish has got to be what?
1070ish? How can the Schwartz be maltier than the Mai? Because of the
dark malt? By "malt flavor" do you mean "malt character"?

I mean precisely MALT FLAVOR, and I never said the Schwartzbier
had more of it.

Let's get off Schwartzbier for now, and I'll answer a more generic
question: How can a 1048ish beer be "MALTIER" than a 1070ish beer?
The same way a 30ish IBU beer can be "HOPPIER" than a 70ish IBU
beer. SG only captures one narrow aspect of "MALTY", just as IBUs
only capture one narrow aspect of "HOPPY". Neither addresses FLAVOR,
which is the number one component in ones overall impression of
a beer. Hop flavor (as opposed to bitterness) depends on late-addition
flavor hops, not IBUs; a dry-hopped 30 IBU pale ale can have a ton more
HOP FLAVOR than a complex 70 IBU stout with no flavor or aroma hop
additions. Malt flavor (as opposed to body, sweetness, whatever)
depends on types and mash treatment of malts, not simple quantity
in the bill; a decocted 1048 Helles can have a ton more MALT FLAVOR
than an infusion mashed 1070 American "bock" (ack, ptui!).

Visit some time, you ****ing asshole. I'm not proud. I'll take lessons.
Jackson schools me all the time.

Ewww. I just had the most disgusting image flash through my mind.

"Jon Binkley" wrote in message
SG only captures one narrow aspect of "MALTY", just as IBUs
only capture one narrow aspect of "HOPPY". Neither addresses FLAVOR,

Thought you'd like to know: I just went out and had this tattooed on my ass.
I plan to tattoo it on many dipshit beer geeks' asses before I die. Thank
you, Jon, I love you.

--
Lew Bryson

"As for talking shit in this NG, Lew, you're the undisputed king, and
that's no SHITE." -- Bob Skilnik, 1/31/02

www.lewbryson.com

Lew Bryson wrote:
"Jon Binkley" wrote:
SG only captures one narrow aspect of "MALTY", just as IBUs
only capture one narrow aspect of "HOPPY". Neither addresses FLAVOR,

Thought you'd like to know: I just went out and had this tattooed on my ass.
I plan to tattoo it on many dipshit beer geeks' asses before I die.

Huh. I thought that's so obvious nobody would even
think twice about it.

Thank you, Jon, I love you.

Get a room, you two.
--
Joel Plutchak "I'm in beer class / Every Thursday night"
- "Sinister Foxx", _Title TK_, The Breeders

Lew Bryson wrote:
"Jon Binkley" wrote:
SG only captures one narrow aspect of "MALTY", just as IBUs
only capture one narrow aspect of "HOPPY". Neither addresses FLAVOR,

Thought you'd like to know: I just went out and had this tattooed on my ass.
I plan to tattoo it on many dipshit beer geeks' asses before I die.

Huh. I thought that's so obvious nobody would even
think twice about it.

Thank you, Jon, I love you.

Get a room, you two.
--
Joel Plutchak "I'm in beer class / Every Thursday night"
- "Sinister Foxx", _Title TK_, The Breeders

"Joel" wrote in message
...
Lew Bryson wrote:
"Jon Binkley" wrote:
SG only captures one narrow aspect of "MALTY", just as IBUs
only capture one narrow aspect of "HOPPY". Neither addresses FLAVOR,

Thought you'd like to know: I just went out and had this tattooed on my
ass.
I plan to tattoo it on many dipshit beer geeks' asses before I die.

Huh. I thought that's so obvious nobody would even
think twice about it.

It's for when I show my ass to beer geeks. I figure it shouldn't just be a
visual insult, they ought to learn something.

Thank you, Jon, I love you.

Get a room, you two.

New car's got a big trunk, we can save some money.

--
Lew Bryson

"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
www.lewbryson.com