I was recently perusing the website of my favorite local liquor store.
Their description for Negra Modelo and Bohemia said:

Negra Modelo
"An average example of the Dark American Lager style. No more, no less. An
excellent compliment to any Mexican meal."

Now the last time I drank a Negra Modelo, it was a really good
example of a Bavarian Maerzen style and that's what the Modelo web site
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this. Has
AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american lager,
or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one they have
for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

CB

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
Now the last time I drank a Negra Modelo, it was a really good
example of a Bavarian Maerzen style and that's what the Modelo web site
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this. Has
AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american lager,
or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one they have
for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

Haven't had a Negra Modelo for a few months, but it was still as good as it
ever was at that point. It sounds like whoever's writing the liquor store's
copy doesn't know what they're talking about.

Incidentally, in an exercise that's a bit like arguing how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin, it seems that people who get into classifying
beers put NM more in the Vienna style than Bavarian Märzen. It's too small a
beer, really, to fit into that style, IMO, and has a different malt
character. Vienna-style lagers were similar, but they strike me as a bit
dryer and have a slightly different toasted malt character (from the use of
Vienna malt) than their Märzen cousins, which typically use Munich malt.

-Steve

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
Now the last time I drank a Negra Modelo, it was a really good
example of a Bavarian Maerzen style and that's what the Modelo web site
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this. Has
AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american lager,
or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one they have
for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

Haven't had a Negra Modelo for a few months, but it was still as good as it
ever was at that point. It sounds like whoever's writing the liquor store's
copy doesn't know what they're talking about.

Incidentally, in an exercise that's a bit like arguing how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin, it seems that people who get into classifying
beers put NM more in the Vienna style than Bavarian Märzen. It's too small a
beer, really, to fit into that style, IMO, and has a different malt
character. Vienna-style lagers were similar, but they strike me as a bit
dryer and have a slightly different toasted malt character (from the use of
Vienna malt) than their Märzen cousins, which typically use Munich malt.

-Steve

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:32:30 -0800, Steve Jackson wrote:

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
Now the last time I drank a Negra Modelo, it was a really good example
of a Bavarian Maerzen style and that's what the Modelo web site says
it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this.
Has AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american
lager, or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one
they have for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

Haven't had a Negra Modelo for a few months, but it was still as good as
it ever was at that point. It sounds like whoever's writing the liquor
store's copy doesn't know what they're talking about.

Incidentally, in an exercise that's a bit like arguing how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin, it seems that people who get into classifying
beers put NM more in the Vienna style than Bavarian Märzen. It's too
small a beer, really, to fit into that style, IMO, and has a different
malt character. Vienna-style lagers were similar, but they strike me as a
bit dryer and have a slightly different toasted malt character (from the
use of Vienna malt) than their Märzen cousins, which typically use Munich
malt.

-Steve

I understand what you're saying.

It's interesting to see that the only commercial examples the BJCP
guidelines can come up with are American (either Mexico or US). It seems
to me that this is a made up style for beer competitions that doesn't
exist in the wild or are they claiming that the style was exiled from Wien
with Maximiliiano y Carlota?

CB

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:32:30 -0800, Steve Jackson wrote:

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
Now the last time I drank a Negra Modelo, it was a really good example
of a Bavarian Maerzen style and that's what the Modelo web site says
it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this.
Has AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american
lager, or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one
they have for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

Haven't had a Negra Modelo for a few months, but it was still as good as
it ever was at that point. It sounds like whoever's writing the liquor
store's copy doesn't know what they're talking about.

Incidentally, in an exercise that's a bit like arguing how many angels can
dance on the head of a pin, it seems that people who get into classifying
beers put NM more in the Vienna style than Bavarian Märzen. It's too
small a beer, really, to fit into that style, IMO, and has a different
malt character. Vienna-style lagers were similar, but they strike me as a
bit dryer and have a slightly different toasted malt character (from the
use of Vienna malt) than their Märzen cousins, which typically use Munich
malt.

-Steve

I understand what you're saying.

It's interesting to see that the only commercial examples the BJCP
guidelines can come up with are American (either Mexico or US). It seems
to me that this is a made up style for beer competitions that doesn't
exist in the wild or are they claiming that the style was exiled from Wien
with Maximiliiano y Carlota?

CB

I think it's a bit too light for a M=E4rzen, and the adjunct taste takes
away from any German roots it may have IMO.

I think it's a bit too light for a M=E4rzen, and the adjunct taste takes
away from any German roots it may have IMO.

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this. Has
AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american lager,
or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one they have
for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

I don't believe A-B has taken over a "controlling" interest in Modelo. They
own 50% of the company, but not 50% of the voting shares. Modelo still runs
its own company, and A-B does nothing but wait for an opportunity to take
control. If Negro Modelo has been dumbed down (though I would never have
called it a "fine maerzen;" oscura, maybe), it's Modelo's doing. Like I say,
A-B's done enough. We don't need to make things up.

--
Lew Bryson

"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
www.lewbryson.com

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest, I
was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this. Has
AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american lager,
or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one they have
for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

I don't believe A-B has taken over a "controlling" interest in Modelo. They
own 50% of the company, but not 50% of the voting shares. Modelo still runs
its own company, and A-B does nothing but wait for an opportunity to take
control. If Negro Modelo has been dumbed down (though I would never have
called it a "fine maerzen;" oscura, maybe), it's Modelo's doing. Like I say,
A-B's done enough. We don't need to make things up.

--
Lew Bryson

"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
www.lewbryson.com

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:36:32 +0000, Lew Bryson wrote:

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest,
I was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this.
Has AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american
lager, or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one
they have for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

I don't believe A-B has taken over a "controlling" interest in Modelo.
They own 50% of the company, but not 50% of the voting shares. Modelo
still runs its own company, and A-B does nothing but wait for an
opportunity to take control. If Negro Modelo has been dumbed down (though
I would never have called it a "fine maerzen;" oscura, maybe), it's
Modelo's doing. Like I say, A-B's done enough. We don't need to make
things up.

As it turns out, it's Beer Advocate .com that's at fault. My local liquor
store uses their beer styles as gospel. Walt over at the beer judge
certification program tells me that NM is still a Vienna. As Modelo and
Corona are made by the same folks, I guess they don't really need AB to
make dumbed down beer.

CB

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:36:32 +0000, Lew Bryson wrote:

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
says it's supposed to be. But with AB taking over controlling interest,
I was interested if anyone who's had one recently can comment on this.
Has AB dumbed down Negra Modelo from a fine maerzen to a dark american
lager, or is the liquor store's description as screwed up as the one
they have for Bohemia - a Vienna-Style Lager (whatever that means)?

I don't believe A-B has taken over a "controlling" interest in Modelo.
They own 50% of the company, but not 50% of the voting shares. Modelo
still runs its own company, and A-B does nothing but wait for an
opportunity to take control. If Negro Modelo has been dumbed down (though
I would never have called it a "fine maerzen;" oscura, maybe), it's
Modelo's doing. Like I say, A-B's done enough. We don't need to make
things up.

As it turns out, it's Beer Advocate .com that's at fault. My local liquor
store uses their beer styles as gospel. Walt over at the beer judge
certification program tells me that NM is still a Vienna. As Modelo and
Corona are made by the same folks, I guess they don't really need AB to
make dumbed down beer.

CB

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
It's interesting to see that the only commercial examples the BJCP
guidelines can come up with are American (either Mexico or US). It seems
to me that this is a made up style for beer competitions that doesn't
exist in the wild or are they claiming that the style was exiled from Wien
with Maximiliiano y Carlota?

Actually, there is historical precedent for the style. It was carried over
during the wave of German and Austrian immigration to the Americas in the
19th century. The style died off in Europe. It may or may not have been
maintained through some of the Mexican beers. Assuming that Negra Modelo
fits the profile of the Vienna beers is a big assumption, just as assuming
that Anchor's rendition of steam beer is like the historical beers.

-Steve

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
It's interesting to see that the only commercial examples the BJCP
guidelines can come up with are American (either Mexico or US). It seems
to me that this is a made up style for beer competitions that doesn't
exist in the wild or are they claiming that the style was exiled from Wien
with Maximiliiano y Carlota?

Actually, there is historical precedent for the style. It was carried over
during the wave of German and Austrian immigration to the Americas in the
19th century. The style died off in Europe. It may or may not have been
maintained through some of the Mexican beers. Assuming that Negra Modelo
fits the profile of the Vienna beers is a big assumption, just as assuming
that Anchor's rendition of steam beer is like the historical beers.

-Steve

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:54:37 -0800, Steve Jackson wrote:

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
It's interesting to see that the only commercial examples the BJCP
guidelines can come up with are American (either Mexico or US). It
seems to me that this is a made up style for beer competitions that
doesn't exist in the wild or are they claiming that the style was exiled
from Wien with Maximiliiano y Carlota?

Actually, there is historical precedent for the style. It was carried over
during the wave of German and Austrian immigration to the Americas in the
19th century. The style died off in Europe. It may or may not have been
maintained through some of the Mexican beers. Assuming that Negra Modelo
fits the profile of the Vienna beers is a big assumption, just as assuming
that Anchor's rendition of steam beer is like the historical beers.

-Steve

I was just reading about how a Hapsburg Emperor sent a Bohemian
brew master to Mexico to teach them how to brew beer. The reference was
in a paragraph related to the 30 years war, 16th century, but it wasn't
specific as to when this technology transfer occurred. I think it's more
likely that Emperor Franz Josef sent the brew master from Bohemia to
his brother Maxamiliano in the mid 19th century. That would be about
the time the Pilsner style was developed and would account for popularity
of the Wiener style in Mexican beer (if you believe Michael Jackson, the
brew master at Moctezuma is 72 years old he might remember what a real
Vienna tastes like - Indio and XX Amber).

CB

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:54:37 -0800, Steve Jackson wrote:

"Craig Bergren" wrote in message
news
It's interesting to see that the only commercial examples the BJCP
guidelines can come up with are American (either Mexico or US). It
seems to me that this is a made up style for beer competitions that
doesn't exist in the wild or are they claiming that the style was exiled
from Wien with Maximiliiano y Carlota?

Actually, there is historical precedent for the style. It was carried over
during the wave of German and Austrian immigration to the Americas in the
19th century. The style died off in Europe. It may or may not have been
maintained through some of the Mexican beers. Assuming that Negra Modelo
fits the profile of the Vienna beers is a big assumption, just as assuming
that Anchor's rendition of steam beer is like the historical beers.

-Steve

I was just reading about how a Hapsburg Emperor sent a Bohemian
brew master to Mexico to teach them how to brew beer. The reference was
in a paragraph related to the 30 years war, 16th century, but it wasn't
specific as to when this technology transfer occurred. I think it's more
likely that Emperor Franz Josef sent the brew master from Bohemia to
his brother Maxamiliano in the mid 19th century. That would be about
the time the Pilsner style was developed and would account for popularity
of the Wiener style in Mexican beer (if you believe Michael Jackson, the
brew master at Moctezuma is 72 years old he might remember what a real
Vienna tastes like - Indio and XX Amber).

CB