Scott Jensen wrote:
This seems more honest judging process to determine which
is the best beers that us consumers can purchase...

Any independent purchaser for a legitimate contest would have
to jet all over the country in a short period of time--and still
manage to keep the beer chilled.

Or do the opposite. Have the beers bought by a trusted parties around the
country and chill-shipped to the judges so all the beers arrive within a day
or two of each other at the judging location.

So you'd not only be judging the beers, but the distributors,
and the retailers. I see as much problem with that as in the
GABF method, which, though not perfect, at least attempts to
judge the beer itself.
To expand a bit, you'd potentially knock a good beer due
to the bad actions of one distribution-retailer combination.
I seriously doubt brewers would want to risk that.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
I'm just saying what I saw and heard on that special. That you do this is
fine, but the special clearly showed that extra care was taken by other
contestants...

How many were shown on the show, and how many breweries enter
the GABF? I've seen TV shows that grossly distort facts by
showing only what they want to show. Just something to consider.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
First, should there be a category then for homebrewers? Then again, are
homebrewers even allowed into the contest?

Scott, no offense, but if all your info came from the TV show
and it wasn't made clear that the GABF is a competition for commercial
beers, you are basing all your discussion on a very narrow set of
facts.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
I'm a marketing consultant by trade...

I'm sorry. ;-)

...so I'm well aware of this. However, to
discount everything you see on TV is just as foolish. The special didn't
just have a commentator talking all the time. It had a lot of the
brewmasters speaking for themselves and showing them do their stuff. It
came across as a nicely done show that was relatively fair and balanced.
They didn't seem to have an agenda. They seems well informed.

I've been interviewed several times about beer, and beer
competitions. The newspapers the resulting articles appeared
in quoted me. Even ignoring misquotes and misattributed
quotes (which is just a wee bit more difficult to do on
television, I grant you), there were some large misrep-
resentations and straight out unfactual things that got
into those articles. The process has left me aware of how
things can easily be made into something other than what they
are.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Steve Jackson wrote:
I'm just pointing out that I don't see how using store-bought beer (and what
are you going to do about the huge number of draught-only beers in that
scenario?) is really going to make any difference. It's still a subjective
contest in an artificial environment that simply states a certain beer
measures up best against certain criteria. And, knowing how judging often
plays out - the biggest or bitterest beer wins 90 percent of the time - I
find the results even more worthless.

Yes, I agree it would be less valuable-- you'd be using a
single data point using a random batch of a given beer with
random (mis)handling of it. What does that tell a consumer,
other than that that particular batch of beer bought at that
particular shop at that particular point in time (beer does
age) was rated as X by a particular panel of judges (average
consumers with no given experience, I assume)? At the very
best, it tells you exactly what the GABF tells you, except
the beers may or may not be in decent shape, and barring a
statistically significant sampling over time and location,
gives no no clue as to whether you. personally, will like
that beer where you personally by it.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
"Steve Jackson" wrote:
Sure, everyone finds out about beers they might not have
otherwise via these contests, but I've seen enough cases
where an award winning beer isn't any better than a lot
of similar beers out there.

Again, that's your opinion. Perhaps your tastebuds are not that
discriminating.

Ah, the ad hominem attack. That'll win him over.
FWIW, I know Steve Jackson, I've drank beer with Steve Jackson.
His tastebuds are fine. (FWIW, I've also argued with Steve Jackson,
so it's not like I'm his best friend who would defend him in
everything he does.)

recommendations, etc. Winning a contest is pretty low on
the list. But maybe that's just me.

By profession, I'm a marketing consultant...

And I'm a brewer and certified beer judge. That and $3.50
will get me a pint of beer at a Chicago brewpub.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Steve Jackson wrote:
And that's the deal with beer contests. They're good (though not necessary)
for raising exposure and recognition for a brewery. As an educated and
experienced consumer, I know that they're not representative of what they
claim to be: this is the best beer in the country.

OK, here's where I call Steve a doo-doo head. Steve, you doo-doo
head, no rational consumer (I know, I know) will accept a statement
as patently absurb as "this is the best beer in the country because
it was voted that way" as meaning "everyconsumer will like this
beer." I'd go further than that for "consumer educated about the
product and rating procedure" which includes many of us here.
There's no such as as "best beer in the country" for any reasonable
set of consumers.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
"Steve Jackson" wrote:
That makes no sense to me at all. If we're looking for a
contest that is judging the best beers as people can buy
them - well, people buy a lot of draught beer. In some parts
fo the country, draught sales are huge and is the primary way
people drink their beer. Why rule that out right off?

Because unless you live within reasonable driving distance of that
draught-only brewery, you'll very likely never have an opportunity to sample
and enjoy their beer.

Same holds for most smaller regional breweries. Many places
don't get Victory beer, or Bell's beer, or Three Floyd's beer,
or Bridgeport's beer, etc. All are bottled. If you just want
a competition between megabreweries and the handful of craft
breweries that distribute nationally, that doesn't address,
except in a very small part, what the average person in any
given state or region can buy locally.

Have I ever said in this entire thread that I'd only appreciate what experts
say is the best? No. What I have said is that I'd like to know what the
experts would say if a contest was more geared for the average consumer.

Experts are not, by definition, average consumers. To get the
"average consumer" take, look up that Consumer Reports article
from a couple years back. Fairly useless if you ask me.

Did I say it was an absurd statement? Please don't go the strawman route.

Furrfu.

Odd. I would have then assumed that if you're a marketing consultant you
would have always had a spellchecker look over your posts before letting
them go.

Ooooh, look spelling flames! That's certainly better than
"the strawman route" as a method of discussion.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

Scott T. Jensen wrote:
No, if we saw the same special, it clearly showed that some of the
brewmasters were making special batches (taking at least extra special care
when they're brewed) for the contest.

That doesn't clash with the rules.

I'd disagree. From watching the special, it has more to do with you being
luck enough to have beer from the same specially-brewed batch of beer that
was tapped for the contest.

And the same would be true of your proposed competition,
but you'd be adding purchase location into the mix. How does
that help the "average consumer?"

Unfortunately, as no one has brought up a contest structured as what I'm
seeking, I guess it just doesn't exist. Too bad. If I had money to throw
around, I'd start it up but I don't.

Or maybe people who have experience with beer competitions
know what they're doing, better than some average USENET poster.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

I should have qualified the statement by stating those brewpubs and
microbreweries that _want_ to brew to style for the GABF. I would expect
some not to care what the style guidelines say, but then they should not be
surprised if they do not win, either. I agree with you too, that some
micros can brew consistently from batch to batch--I was probably
generalizing too much.

Kevin


"plutchak joel peter" wrote in message
...
Kevin wrote:
The brewpubs and microbreweries don't have the millions
invested in consistency; their product varies from batch to batch, no
matter
how much they try to keep the consistency the same. Looking at it
another
way, the brewpubs and microbreweries are brewing as best as they can to
fit
the style guidelines set out by the GABF for judging.

I agree with much of what you said. I'm not sure I put as
much weight on the above, though. Craft breweries vary in
their ability to brew a given beer recipe consistently.
For example, I never got a lot of variation from the main
beers of Anchor, Sierra Nevada, or Rogue, to name a few.
(I've noted more variability among some smaller breweries.)
The last sentence may be true of some of the breweries
when preparing beer specifically for the GABF, but I don't
think it's true for mostsmaller breweries most of the time--
they could care less what GABF (or BJCP) guidelines say.
--
Joel Plutchak plutchak@[...] | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

"Scott T. Jensen" wrote in message
...
After watching a Food Network special on The Great American Beer Festival,
I'm wondering if there's a beer contest where the judges secretly buy beer
out of stores (the brewer not knowing which store) and then use these to
compare against each other. This seems more honest judging process to
determine which is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
Great American Beer Festival. Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so
structured?

I cannot believe you guys went through all this discussion and horseshit
when there IS such a contest. The US Beer Tasting Championship buys beers in
the store (across a fairly good-sized region; they DO also accept donated
beers from brewers) and judges them. Is it perfect? Of course not. But
Victory and Dogfish Head regularly participate in this one because there are
no fees. I supply this for informational purposes only, as I have no
interest in partaking in this thread otherwise. USBTC is at
http://www.usbtc.com

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at www.amazon.com
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Scott T. Jensen wrote:

"Oh, Guess" wrote:
"Scott T. Jensen" wrote:
[...] This seems more honest judging process to
determine which is the best beers that us consumers can
purchase than the specially brewed, bottled, packaged,
and delivered beer submitted to The Great American
Beer Festival.

Eh? The beer submitted to GABF for judging is
wha-wha-what? The beer for judging is normally from
plain bottles, and is poured out of sight of the judges by
stewards. The judges normally see nothing but the beer...

What you've said so far is true and was shown on the special, but that
doesn't really mean anything as far as whether the beer was store-bought or
specially made for the judging ... as they showed on the special.


What they showed on the special was Garrett Oliver hand bottling some of
his normally draught-only Brooklyn Brewery beers.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Scott T. Jensen wrote:

"Cwrw42" wrote:
As the individual who was responsible for making sure that
our samples for judging and the kegs for the festival floor
were delivered on time I can state catagorically that we did
not brew or package special samples for the competition.

I'm just saying what I saw and heard on that special. That you do this is
fine, but the special clearly showed that extra care was taken by other
contestants that wouldn't normally be done for the average consumer's beer
bought from them.


You missesd some important detail. Aside from those brewed and bottled at
Matt's, the Brooklyn Brewery beers are draught at the brewpub.
Garrett was simply bottling those beers so they could be submitted. Its
nothing special.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Douglas W. Hoyt wrote:

Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so structured?

Maybe it's better not to have an annual contest, but to do what the Beverage
Testing Institute does:
http://www.tastings.com/search_beer.lasso

Or for that matter, www.ratebeer.com !


Yep, now theere's your consumer beer contest. Beers are sampled mostly as
is from store shelves and draught in bars. Of course most have the
decency not to rate a beer thats obviously past its prime or has been
mishandled, but for beers that are prone to those kinds of off-tastes, the
consumer ought to know that, and it will be reflected somewhat at
ratebeer.

Its also a large representative sample, except it doesn't really represent
people who drink beer but don't like it (i.e. the swill chuggers of the
world)

I cannot believe you guys went through all this discussion and
horseshit when there IS such a contest. The US Beer Tasting Championship
.....

We were just trying to wake you from your slumber. Thanks for that
URL--it is a very USEful award list because these are beers that people can
actually FIND somewhere!