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Barbecue (alt.food.barbecue) Discuss barbecue and grilling--southern style "low and slow" smoking of ribs, shoulders and briskets, as well as direct heat grilling of everything from burgers to salmon to vegetables.

Morton's Tender Quick for brining?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 22-05-2006, 07:10 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,209
Default Morton's Tender Quick for brining?

Some of you have used Morton's Tender Quick for brining ribs.
What happened to the meat? Did you get a cured ham like taste, or something
else? How long did you cure?
I have noticed that when some add Tender Quick to their brine, they use only
a small portion in their brine, one to eight parts salt to one to four parts
salt. Morton's doesn't publish any TQ/water concentration for brining. Rutas
only uses prague power, 10 times as much nitrite than TQ, in fairly high
concentrations.
Have any of you Tender Quick briners experimented with that, and what
happened? I think Morton's tells you to use it straight out of the bag,
though only for "dry rub"
Thanks for any thoughts or advice.
Kent


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 22-05-2006, 10:55 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 980
Default Morton's Tender Quick for brining?

Kent wrote:

Some of you have used Morton's Tender Quick for brining ribs.
What happened to the meat? Did you get a cured ham like taste, or something
else? How long did you cure?


It would completely ruin ribs, at least for me. Wouldn't
want hammy tasting ribs. I use it for other pork cuts, also
beef and the occasional turkey breast.

I have noticed that when some add Tender Quick to their brine, they use only
a small portion in their brine, one to eight parts salt to one to four parts
salt. Morton's doesn't publish any TQ/water concentration for brining. Rutas
only uses prague power, 10 times as much nitrite than TQ, in fairly high
concentrations.


I disagree he uses them in "fairly high" concentrations. He
uses the industry standard amount. For direct addition it's
1 oz prague powder per 25 lbs of meat resulting in a
concentration of about 150 ppm. The maximum allowable
amount is 200 ppm as per the US CFR.

Have any of you Tender Quick briners experimented with that, and what
happened? I think Morton's tells you to use it straight out of the bag,
though only for "dry rub"


There's no specific reason you can't use TQ in wet cures. The morton
website isn't very good, but their meat curing book is very
informative. I recommend it for you, Kent.

http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/meatcuring/index.htm#Meat

--
Reg

  #3 (permalink)  
Old 27-05-2006, 07:10 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,209
Default Morton's Tender Quick for brining?


"Reg" wrote in message
. com...
Kent wrote:

Some of you have used Morton's Tender Quick for brining ribs.
What happened to the meat? Did you get a cured ham like taste, or
something else? How long did you cure?


It would completely ruin ribs, at least for me. Wouldn't
want hammy tasting ribs. I use it for other pork cuts, also
beef and the occasional turkey breast.

I have noticed that when some add Tender Quick to their brine, they use
only a small portion in their brine, one to eight parts salt to one to
four parts salt. Morton's doesn't publish any TQ/water concentration for
brining. Rutas only uses prague power, 10 times as much nitrite than TQ,
in fairly high concentrations.


I disagree he uses them in "fairly high" concentrations. He
uses the industry standard amount. For direct addition it's
1 oz prague powder per 25 lbs of meat resulting in a
concentration of about 150 ppm. The maximum allowable
amount is 200 ppm as per the US CFR.

Have any of you Tender Quick briners experimented with that, and what
happened? I think Morton's tells you to use it straight out of the bag,
though only for "dry rub"


There's no specific reason you can't use TQ in wet cures. The morton
website isn't very good, but their meat curing book is very
informative. I recommend it for you, Kent.

http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/meatcuring/index.htm#Meat

--
Reg


Thanks Reg, for the above post. I've been trying to straighten out the math.

prague #1
prague#2
Morton's TC

ounces nitrite/lb salt
1
1
0.08

ounces nitrite/ ounce salt
0.0625
0.0625
0.005

Per cent
6.25
6.25
0.5

ounces nitrite/ 25lb
0.00015625
0.00015625
0.0000125

parts per million 25lb
156.25
156.25
12.5

ounces nitrate/lb
0
0.64
0.08

ounces nitrate/ ounce
0
0.04
0.005

per cent
0
4
0.5

ounces nitrate/ 25lb
0
0.0001
0.0000125

parts/ million
0
100
12.5



If you add salt to either prague powder you come up with the ppm ratios
you mention. TC has a lower relative concentration of nitrite because the
salt is added into the cure, and because the ratio of nitrite to salt is one
tenth that of prague powder.

All of this works with direct injection or arterial curing because all of
the nitrate in your cure ends up in what you are curing.

It strikes me that all of this falls apart when you brine. The amount of
nitrite in the brine depends on the total volume of brine you are using with
a given concentration, the weight of the meat in the brine, and how much of
the nitrite and nitrate gets into the meat during the brining period. Each
type of meat would have a different absorptive ratio depending on species,
fat and muscle characteristics and so forth.

Any thoughts about this would be welcomed. I find very little on the
internet about brine curing with nitrites and nitrates.

Kent







  #4 (permalink)  
Old 27-05-2006, 08:07 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,209
Default Sorry for the confusion - Morton's Tender Quick for brining?

Sorry for the top post. Please see below my attempt to correct the above
post.
"Kent" wrote in message
...

"Reg" wrote in message
. com...
Kent wrote:

Some of you have used Morton's Tender Quick for brining ribs.
What happened to the meat? Did you get a cured ham like taste, or
something else? How long did you cure?


It would completely ruin ribs, at least for me. Wouldn't
want hammy tasting ribs. I use it for other pork cuts, also
beef and the occasional turkey breast.

I have noticed that when some add Tender Quick to their brine, they use
only a small portion in their brine, one to eight parts salt to one to
four parts salt. Morton's doesn't publish any TQ/water concentration for
brining. Rutas only uses prague power, 10 times as much nitrite than TQ,
in fairly high concentrations.


I disagree he uses them in "fairly high" concentrations. He
uses the industry standard amount. For direct addition it's
1 oz prague powder per 25 lbs of meat resulting in a
concentration of about 150 ppm. The maximum allowable
amount is 200 ppm as per the US CFR.

Have any of you Tender Quick briners experimented with that, and what
happened? I think Morton's tells you to use it straight out of the bag,
though only for "dry rub"


There's no specific reason you can't use TQ in wet cures. The morton
website isn't very good, but their meat curing book is very
informative. I recommend it for you, Kent.

http://www.mortonsalt.com/consumer/products/meatcuring/index.htm#Meat

--
Reg


Thanks Reg, for the above post. I've been trying to straighten out the math.
I am going to buy the book from Morton.

Prague #1 and #2 have 1 ounce nitrite/lb salt. Morton's TC has .08 ounce/lb.
Prague #1 and #2 have .0625 ounces nitrite/ounce salt, or 6.25%. Morton's TC
has .005 oz. nitrite/ounce salt, or .5%.

Prague #1 and #2 have 00015625 ounce nitrite/25 lb meat, or 156.25 parts per
million, by weight. Morton's TC has .0000125 ounce/25lb meat or 12.5 parts
per million by weight.

If you add salt to either prague powder you come up with the ppm ratios
you mention. TC has a lower relative concentration of nitrite because that
much more salt is added into the cure, with a ratio of nitrite to salt one
tenth that of prague powder.

All of this works with direct injection or arterial curing because all of
the nitrate in your cure ends up in what you are curing.

It strikes me that all of this falls apart when you brine. The amount of
nitrite in the brine depends on the total volume of brine you are using with
a given concentration, the weight of the meat in the brine, and how much of
the nitrite and nitrate gets into the meat during the brining period. Each
type of meat would have a different absorptive ratio depending on species,
fat and muscle characteristics and so forth.

Any thoughts about this would be welcomed. I find very little on the
internet about brine curing with nitrites and nitrates.

Again, sorry for the confusion

Kent









  #5 (permalink)  
Old 30-05-2006, 07:33 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 980
Default Sorry for the confusion - Morton's Tender Quick for brining?

Kent wrote:

Thanks Reg, for the above post. I've been trying to straighten out the math.
I am going to buy the book from Morton.

Prague #1 and #2 have 1 ounce nitrite/lb salt. Morton's TC has .08 ounce/lb.
Prague #1 and #2 have .0625 ounces nitrite/ounce salt, or 6.25%. Morton's TC
has .005 oz. nitrite/ounce salt, or .5%.

Prague #1 and #2 have 00015625 ounce nitrite/25 lb meat, or 156.25 parts per
million, by weight. Morton's TC has .0000125 ounce/25lb meat or 12.5 parts
per million by weight.



Right on all counts.

If you add salt to either prague powder you come up with the ppm ratios
you mention. TC has a lower relative concentration of nitrite because that
much more salt is added into the cure, with a ratio of nitrite to salt one
tenth that of prague powder.



Key point there. TQ contains much more salt, so in order to get
above 100 PPM in nitrite you'd have to add so much TQ that it
wouldn't be edible. Too salty. That's why I use prague #1 instead
of TQ. It's much more versatile.

The above begs some important questions. It should be asked
therefore, what is a reasonable minimum level of nitrite? How
much do you need to achieve adequate preservation, and does
TQ suffice in achieving this?

Unfortunately, all of the coverage in the US code (CFR)
has to do with *maximum* allowable levels. There's no
mention of minimums. If you're goal is to use the proper
amount of nitrites this you'll have to consult other
sources.

If you're interested in investigating it there are some solid
mathematical models out there. There's a free program called
Pathogen Modeling Program that employs these models to predict
various pathogen growth outcomes.

PMP is available he

http://ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=6784

It's based on the following models, some of which include
sodium nitrite as an input parameter:

- Growth models for Aeromonas hydrophila, Bacillus cereus, Clostridium
perfringens, Escherichia coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella,
Shigella flexneri, Staphylococcus aureus, and Yersinia enterocolitica.

- Time-to-Toxigenesis model for Clostridium botulinum on fish.

- Time-to-Turbidity models for Clostridium botulinum.

- Non-thermal inactivation/survival models for Escherichia coli O157:H7,
Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella spp., and Staphylococcus aureus.

- Thermal inactivation models for Clostridium botulinum, *Escherichia
coli O157:H7 and Listeria monocytogenes.

- Gamma Irradiation models for Salmonella typhimurium, Escherichia
coli O157:H7 and "Normal" flora in meats.

- Cooling/Growth models for Clostridium botulinum and Clostridium
perfringens.

After creating many models and experimenting with the nitrite
parameters you'll see that nitrite begins to have a measurable
effect on botulinum at around 40-50 PPM. This effect is
magnified by a factor of three by about 100 PPM or so. However
with salmonella, nitrite doesn't begin to have a significant
impact until it's above about 100 PPM.

When you see these effects in action, the industry standard
of around 150 PPM makes very good sense.

All of this works with direct injection or arterial curing because all of
the nitrate in your cure ends up in what you are curing.

It strikes me that all of this falls apart when you brine. The amount of
nitrite in the brine depends on the total volume of brine you are using with
a given concentration, the weight of the meat in the brine, and how much of
the nitrite and nitrate gets into the meat during the brining period. Each
type of meat would have a different absorptive ratio depending on species,
fat and muscle characteristics and so forth.



Yes, the above applies to "direct addition" only, i.e. adding
it directly into a mix of ground meat.

The key to understanding how to achieve predictable and
consistant nitrite levels through brining is in understanding
equilibrium of the solutes (nitrites, salt, sugar)

When you first put the meat in the brine, the meat will
contain 0% nitrites, and the solution will contain some
non-zero amount. X percent.

After a long enough period, the meat and the brine will both
contain the same level of nitrites. They will have achieved
equilibrium, and the nitrite level in the brine will be
diminished somewhat because of the water that naturally occurs
in meat. The actual level will be the above mentioned X, minus
some amount, which will vary based on the ratio of brine to meat.

So, in order to achieve the desired predictability you can't
use "short" brining methods, you have to keep it in the brine
for the full amount of time required for equilibrium (which
can be accelerated by injecting, obviously). That's
point #1.

Point #2 is that you have to take the water contained in
the meat into account in your calculations. Here's a sample
calculation that takes that factor into account.

As an example, we'll use an 8 pound brisket which is
being made into pastrami. For water percentage of the meat
we'll use 65% by weight. Salt content of the brine is 3%
by weight. Sugar is 2% by weight. Target nitrite level
will be 150 PPM.

First, calculate the amount of salt to add.

1 gallon water = 8.3 lbs
Weight of water in meat = 0.65 x 8 = 5.2 lbs
3 gallons of water = 25 lbs (rounded off)
Weight of brine water + water in meat = 25 + 5.2 = 30.2 lbs
30.2 x 3% = 0.91 lbs salt
30.2 x 2% = 0.60 lbs sugar

Knowing the weight of the brine and the meat you
can calculate the amount of curing salts required.

Weight of meat = 8 lbs
Total weight of brine = 30.2 + 0.91 + 0.60 = 31.71 lbs

Lbs of nitrite = 150 PPM x (total brine weight + meat weight)
--------------------------------------------
1,000,000

Lbs of nitrite = 150 PPM x (31.71 + 8)
---------------------
1,000,000

Lbs of nitrite = 0.0059565

That's pure nitrite. Now we'll figure the amount of
prague #1 this entails. As you've noted, prague #1 is
6.25% nitrite.

0.0059565 / 0.0625 = 0.0953040 lbs of prague #1

Converting to grams:

0.0953040 prague #1 x 16 oz x 28.35 grams = 43.2 grams

Finally, deduct the amount of salt in the prague powder
to get back to 3%.

43.2 grams prague #1 - (97.5 percent salt * 42.2 grams prague #1) =
40.5 grams salt to deduct = 0.09 lbs salt to deduct

Adjusted salt amount = 0.91 lbs - 0.09 lbs = 0.82 lbs salt

Final recipe:

1 8 lb brisket
3 gallons water
0.82 lbs salt
0.60 lbs sugar
43 grams prague #1 (rounded off)

Plus any other ingredients you use in your
pastrami recipe

As to your question about variablity due to differences
in the meat, experimenting with the above formula should be
enlightening (spreadsheets work well here).

You'll see that varying the meat water content % up or down a
few ticks has only a very small effect on the final numbers.
It's not really a significant factor.

Any thoughts about this would be welcomed. I find very little on the
internet about brine curing with nitrites and nitrates.


There are very few texts available *anywhere* that cover this
issue in adequate depth other than professional and academic
texts, which are very expensive and can be difficult to decipher.

I recommend "Cooking by Hand" by Paul Bertolli. It's an eye opener
in the area of cured meats, and it's packed with lots of other
great info, too.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609608932/qid=1149013017/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0409680-2890544?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

He also improves on some of the aspects of curing that Kutas
covers. That's no insult to Kutas, it's just that he's been gone
a long time and the field has been continually improving, as all
fields do.

Again, sorry for the confusion


I didn't see any confusion on your part, just some good
analysis.

--
Reg

  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2006, 05:18 AM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,209
Default Sorry for the confusion - Morton's Tender Quick for brining?

Reg, it's very curious that Paul Bertoli would suddenly arise in this
thread.
I've met Paul several times at Oliveto, and I have two of his cookbooks,
though not the curing one you mentioned. I immediately reserved the book at
our local library.
He is also, as I'm sure you know, leaving Oliveto and forming a business
which makes and distributes cured meat, "Fra'Mani".
I'm sure you have the following, but for everyone else, look at:
http://www.oliveto.com/chef.html
and scroll down to Paul.
Kent

"Reg" wrote in message
. com...
Kent wrote:

Thanks Reg, for the above post. I've been trying to straighten out the
math. I am going to buy the book from Morton.

Prague #1 and #2 have 1 ounce nitrite/lb salt. Morton's TC has .08
ounce/lb. Prague #1 and #2 have .0625 ounces nitrite/ounce salt, or
6.25%. Morton's TC has .005 oz. nitrite/ounce salt, or .5%.

Prague #1 and #2 have 00015625 ounce nitrite/25 lb meat, or 156.25 parts
per million, by weight. Morton's TC has .0000125 ounce/25lb meat or 12.5
parts per million by weight.



Right on all counts.

If you add salt to either prague powder you come up with the ppm ratios
you mention. TC has a lower relative concentration of nitrite because
that much more salt is added into the cure, with a ratio of nitrite to
salt one
tenth that of prague powder.



Key point there. TQ contains much more salt, so in order to get
above 100 PPM in nitrite you'd have to add so much TQ that it
wouldn't be edible. Too salty. That's why I use prague #1 instead
of TQ. It's much more versatile.

The above begs some important questions. It should be asked
therefore, what is a reasonable minimum level of nitrite? How
much do you need to achieve adequate preservation, and does
TQ suffice in achieving this?

Unfortunately, all of the coverage in the US code (CFR)
has to do with *maximum* allowable levels. There's no
mention of minimums. If you're goal is to use the proper
amount of nitrites this you'll have to consult other
sources.

If you're interested in investigating it there are some solid
mathematical models out there. There's a free program called
Pathogen Modeling Program that employs these models to predict
various pathogen growth outcomes.

PMP is available he

http://ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=6784

It's based on the following models, some of which include
sodium nitrite as an input parameter:

- Growth models for Aeromonas hydrophila, Bacillus cereus, Clostridium
perfringens, Escherichia coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella,
Shigella flexneri, Staphylococcus aureus, and Yersinia enterocolitica.

- Time-to-Toxigenesis model for Clostridium botulinum on fish.

- Time-to-Turbidity models for Clostridium botulinum.

- Non-thermal inactivation/survival models for Escherichia coli O157:H7,
Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella spp., and Staphylococcus aureus.

- Thermal inactivation models for Clostridium botulinum, *Escherichia
coli O157:H7 and Listeria monocytogenes.

- Gamma Irradiation models for Salmonella typhimurium, Escherichia
coli O157:H7 and "Normal" flora in meats.

- Cooling/Growth models for Clostridium botulinum and Clostridium
perfringens.

After creating many models and experimenting with the nitrite
parameters you'll see that nitrite begins to have a measurable
effect on botulinum at around 40-50 PPM. This effect is
magnified by a factor of three by about 100 PPM or so. However
with salmonella, nitrite doesn't begin to have a significant
impact until it's above about 100 PPM.

When you see these effects in action, the industry standard
of around 150 PPM makes very good sense.

All of this works with direct injection or arterial curing because all of
the nitrate in your cure ends up in what you are curing.

It strikes me that all of this falls apart when you brine. The amount of
nitrite in the brine depends on the total volume of brine you are using
with
a given concentration, the weight of the meat in the brine, and how much
of
the nitrite and nitrate gets into the meat during the brining period.
Each
type of meat would have a different absorptive ratio depending on
species,
fat and muscle characteristics and so forth.



Yes, the above applies to "direct addition" only, i.e. adding
it directly into a mix of ground meat.

The key to understanding how to achieve predictable and
consistant nitrite levels through brining is in understanding
equilibrium of the solutes (nitrites, salt, sugar)

When you first put the meat in the brine, the meat will
contain 0% nitrites, and the solution will contain some
non-zero amount. X percent.

After a long enough period, the meat and the brine will both
contain the same level of nitrites. They will have achieved
equilibrium, and the nitrite level in the brine will be
diminished somewhat because of the water that naturally occurs
in meat. The actual level will be the above mentioned X, minus
some amount, which will vary based on the ratio of brine to meat.

So, in order to achieve the desired predictability you can't
use "short" brining methods, you have to keep it in the brine
for the full amount of time required for equilibrium (which
can be accelerated by injecting, obviously). That's
point #1.

Point #2 is that you have to take the water contained in
the meat into account in your calculations. Here's a sample
calculation that takes that factor into account.

As an example, we'll use an 8 pound brisket which is
being made into pastrami. For water percentage of the meat
we'll use 65% by weight. Salt content of the brine is 3%
by weight. Sugar is 2% by weight. Target nitrite level
will be 150 PPM.

First, calculate the amount of salt to add.

1 gallon water = 8.3 lbs
Weight of water in meat = 0.65 x 8 = 5.2 lbs
3 gallons of water = 25 lbs (rounded off)
Weight of brine water + water in meat = 25 + 5.2 = 30.2 lbs
30.2 x 3% = 0.91 lbs salt
30.2 x 2% = 0.60 lbs sugar

Knowing the weight of the brine and the meat you
can calculate the amount of curing salts required.

Weight of meat = 8 lbs
Total weight of brine = 30.2 + 0.91 + 0.60 = 31.71 lbs

Lbs of nitrite = 150 PPM x (total brine weight + meat weight)
--------------------------------------------
1,000,000

Lbs of nitrite = 150 PPM x (31.71 + 8)
---------------------
1,000,000

Lbs of nitrite = 0.0059565

That's pure nitrite. Now we'll figure the amount of
prague #1 this entails. As you've noted, prague #1 is
6.25% nitrite.

0.0059565 / 0.0625 = 0.0953040 lbs of prague #1

Converting to grams:

0.0953040 prague #1 x 16 oz x 28.35 grams = 43.2 grams

Finally, deduct the amount of salt in the prague powder
to get back to 3%.

43.2 grams prague #1 - (97.5 percent salt * 42.2 grams prague #1) =
40.5 grams salt to deduct = 0.09 lbs salt to deduct

Adjusted salt amount = 0.91 lbs - 0.09 lbs = 0.82 lbs salt

Final recipe:

1 8 lb brisket
3 gallons water
0.82 lbs salt
0.60 lbs sugar
43 grams prague #1 (rounded off)

Plus any other ingredients you use in your
pastrami recipe

As to your question about variablity due to differences
in the meat, experimenting with the above formula should be
enlightening (spreadsheets work well here).

You'll see that varying the meat water content % up or down a
few ticks has only a very small effect on the final numbers.
It's not really a significant factor.

Any thoughts about this would be welcomed. I find very little on the
internet about brine curing with nitrites and nitrates.


There are very few texts available *anywhere* that cover this
issue in adequate depth other than professional and academic
texts, which are very expensive and can be difficult to decipher.

I recommend "Cooking by Hand" by Paul Bertolli. It's an eye opener
in the area of cured meats, and it's packed with lots of other
great info, too.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0609608932/qid=1149013017/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-0409680-2890544?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

He also improves on some of the aspects of curing that Kutas
covers. That's no insult to Kutas, it's just that he's been gone
a long time and the field has been continually improving, as all
fields do.

Again, sorry for the confusion


I didn't see any confusion on your part, just some good
analysis.

--
Reg



  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2006, 04:58 PM posted to alt.food.barbecue
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 980
Default Sorry for the confusion - Morton's Tender Quick for brining?

Kent wrote:

Reg, it's very curious that Paul Bertoli would suddenly arise in this
thread.
I've met Paul several times at Oliveto, and I have two of his cookbooks,
though not the curing one you mentioned. I immediately reserved the book at
our local library.
He is also, as I'm sure you know, leaving Oliveto and forming a business
which makes and distributes cured meat, "Fra'Mani".
I'm sure you have the following, but for everyone else, look at:
http://www.oliveto.com/chef.html
and scroll down to Paul.



Bertoli is one of few outstanding sources of information
on meat curing. He also thoroughly distinguishes himself in
the area of fermented cured meats. His book contains
step by step info on everything down to how to get the
ph meters to work properly.

In other words, he da man.

--
Reg

 




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