I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding
needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason
that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I
catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the
meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is
cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?

--
You wanna measure, or you wanna cook?

"Bubba" wrote in message
. ..
I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding
needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason
that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I
catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the
meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is
cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?

Bubba,

I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you bring
the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria breeding
temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free environment), you're
creating a potentially lethal product.
Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in itself a
risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures are used...to kill
the botulin organisms.
As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean and cold
environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies to larding.
If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately* hot smoke
the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't offer any assurances.
Be careful, that shit is lethal.

Jack Curry

Jack Curry wrote:

"Bubba" wrote in message
...


I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding
needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason
that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I
catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the
meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is
cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?



Bubba,

I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you bring
the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria breeding
temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free environment), you're
creating a potentially lethal product.
Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in itself a
risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures are used...to kill
the botulin organisms.
As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean and cold
environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies to larding.
If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately* hot smoke
the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't offer any assurances.
Be careful, that shit is lethal.

Jack Curry






I appreciate your concerns, they are well founded, but I should have
been more specific. The fat will be at close to 200 degrees (I will
render the fat by boiling) when injected. I intend to hot smoke the
venison to about 200 degrees. I want the collagen to liquefy, but need
the fat to help keep the meat moist in the process.

Thanks.
Bubba

--
You wanna measure, or you wanna cook?

Bubba wrote:
I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding
needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason
that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I
catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the
meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is
cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?

How about brining, to keep the meat from drying out while cooking? It
worked very well on some wild geese; I haven't tried it on venison.

Bubba wrote:
I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding
needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason
that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I
catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the
meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is
cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?

How about brining, to keep the meat from drying out while cooking? It
worked very well on some wild geese; I haven't tried it on venison.

Louis Cohen wrote:

Bubba wrote:

I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
snip

How about brining, to keep the meat from drying out while cooking? It
worked very well on some wild geese; I haven't tried it on venison.

Louis,

I thought goose, even wild, was very fatty?

--
Mike Willsey (AMWILatCOMPORIUMdotNET)

http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 11:43:50 -0500, Bubba
wrote:

I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't own a larding
needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no reason
that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea being that if I
catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c) Moisturize the
meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat when the meat is
cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?

Bubba,

In your previous attempts at larding, did you have a real larding
needle?

http://www.chefknifes.com/larding_needles.htm

Back in culinary school, we used to lard roasts all the time with no
problem...now most of those were beef, don't know if the texture
difference with venison would make a difference, but it would be an
option to try...



-Chef Juke
"EVERYbody Eats When They Come To MY House!"
www.chefjuke.com

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont wrote:

Bubba wrote:

I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
snip
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?


Seems like a lotta work my friend! Someone else just asked about this
same a very short time ago.

Subject: Venison, Sender: Dave, Date: 11/20/04, he got lots of advice.

Just cover with bacon, make life simple!

According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is,
completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or
bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat.

That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years.


Larry Noah

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:31:19 -0600, Piedmont wrote:

Larry Noah wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont wrote:


Bubba wrote:

snip
According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is,
completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or
bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat.


That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years.


Larry Noah

Do you "bard" just the breast? or the whole bird?


Actually, just the breast. I cook it breast side down, without
barding, for about 1/3 of the time. Then I turn breast side up and
cover with bacon.


Larry Noah

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:32:02 GMT, Larry Noah
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:31:19 -0600, Piedmont wrote:

Larry Noah wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont wrote:


Bubba wrote:

snip
According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is,
completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or
bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat.


That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years.


Larry Noah

Do you "bard" just the breast? or the whole bird?


Actually, just the breast. I cook it breast side down, without
barding, for about 1/3 of the time. Then I turn breast side up and
cover with bacon.


Larry Noah


Clarification, I bard the breast SIDE which includes thighs etc. with
the breast side up, I completely cover the top of the bird.


Larry Noah

"Larry Noah" wrote in message
...

According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is,
completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or
bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat.

That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years.

Affectionately called "Burkey" in our family.

Jack Curry

Bubba wrote:

I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for an
office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang on!). I
snip
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?


Seems like a lotta work my friend! Someone else just asked about this
same a very short time ago.

Subject: Venison, Sender: Dave, Date: 11/20/04, he got lots of advice.

Just cover with bacon, make life simple!

According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is,
completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or
bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat.

--
Mike Willsey
http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw
(AMWILCOMPORIUMNET) (@ between L&C, dot between M&N)

Larry Noah wrote:

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:18:29 -0600, Piedmont wrote:


Bubba wrote:

snip
According to the Joy of Cooking 1981 edition, Bard it, which is,
completely cover the venison with a 1/4 inch layer of salt pork or
bacon, use pieces about 3 1/3 inch square, use string to secure the fat.


That is the way I have done turkey on the Weber kettle for years.


Larry Noah

Do you "bard" just the breast? or the whole bird?
--
Mike Willsey
http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw
(AMWILCOMPORIUMNET) (@ between L&C, dot between M&N)

Larry Noah wrote:

SNIP
Clarification, I bard the breast SIDE which includes thighs etc. with
the breast side up, I completely cover the top of the bird.


Larry Noah

Good idea Larry, turkey's worst problem is dry breast. Sounds like you
"got it covered!" (grin)

--
Mike Willsey
http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw
(AMWILCOMPORIUMNET) (@ between L&C, dot between M&N)

Bubba wrote:
Jack Curry wrote:

"Bubba" wrote in message
. ..


I've been the recipient of two deer shoulders that I am cooking for
an office party. I intend to smoke them (I know, I know....hang
on!). I figure, if larded, they might come out edible, but I don't
own a larding needle. I've tried the "stick and stuff" routine
with frozen fat but
have never had good results. It occurred to me that there was no
reason that I couldn't inject the shoulders with fat, the idea
being that if I catch the fat at the liquid stage (but still cool
enough to not damage
my syringe) that the fat would: a) Congeal in the cool meat, and
therefore not leak out. b) liquefy at smoking temps. c)
Moisturize the meat without leaving me with globs of unrendered fat
when the meat is cooked.
I'll be happy to hear from anyone that's ever done this.
And glad to post the results.

Ideas, comments, etc?



Bubba,

I think you're playing with botulism and I wouldn't do it. When you
bring the fat up to the point of liquification (nice, warm bacteria
breeding temp), then inject it into the venison (oxygen-free
environment), you're creating a potentially lethal product.
Smoking (I refer to cold smoking - 90 degree temps or so) is in
itself a risky business which is why heavy salt and nitrate cures
are used...to kill the botulin organisms.
As with sausage-making, all meat handling must be done in a clean
and cold environment to prevent bacteria growth and the same applies
to larding.
If you mean to try your injection technique and then *immediately*
hot smoke the venison, it might be OK, but I certainly wouldn't
offer any assurances. Be careful, that shit is lethal.

Jack Curry






I appreciate your concerns, they are well founded, but I should have
been more specific. The fat will be at close to 200 degrees (I will
render the fat by boiling) when injected. I intend to hot smoke the
venison to about 200 degrees. I want the collagen to liquefy, but
need
the fat to help keep the meat moist in the process.

Thanks.
Bubba


I'd forget about taking it to 200. Just go to 140 with no added fat. Very
nice that way. Easy too.

TFM®