On 16-Mar-2004, "Jack Curry" Jack-Curry deletethis @cfl.rr.com wrote:

snipped all the other guys part

Yowsah, Bob speaks the truth. A 1 1/2 pound boneless picnic pork roast?
That sounds like a chunk of shoulder that got left out of the "country
ribs"
package. That little piece of meat is fine for grillin' or grindin' but
it
sure isn't worth a low/slow. Not without plenty of company.

Jack Curry


Sheesh, All my cooks lose about 40% to 50% weight in the process.
There sure wouldn't be much left of that little guy.
--
M&M ("The problem is that no matter what you do, there's
Sombody that won' t like it much") Tom Clancy

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:37:10 GMT, Faye Kinnitt
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:16:54 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
deebuggatcharterdotnet wrote:

Peter wrote:

In getting more info it's clear that the normal cut of meat I'm
looking at is 6-8lbs. So what's this little guy I picked up (1 1/2
lbs)? How does its small size affect the length of time I should
smoke it?

Geez, by the time the fat melts off it you won't have enough
meat left for a sangwich. Only a pound and a half ? You oughtta
get a package of chicken thighs and make the burn worthwhile.

Bob in socal..

Or maybe a couple more butts.

Harry

"Monroe, of course..." wrote in message g...
In article , "Dave Bugg"
deebuggatcharterdotnet wrote:

Peter wrote:

Should I try and keep the temp down further
to allow it to take even longer to hit 190-200?

No. You'll read the term "You cook it till it's done" quite a bit. That's
the key. You cook it until it gets to the temp you want; how long it takes
is irrelevant given the temperature range that most folks 'Q at.

Pork butts don't know diddly about watching the clock. And the fat
content, which will vary from butt to butt like a fingerprint, will
have bearing on when it's done.
From say 150F - 170F, the meat is already done, but the connective
tissue is getting cooked and breaking down. You'll likely see the meat
temp 'stall' or plateau for a while while this happens.
Then the fat will start to render out as you get closer to the 200F
mark. If you render out too much of the fat - your butt will be too
dry.
I'd go on and say to give it a rest of an hour,if possible,after it's
cooked before you pull it apart. This is a moot point if it falls apart
when you take it off of the grill......

monroe(temp not time)

AMEN!! I did a whole cryovac shoulder last summer that took 13 hours
in the smoker. It woulda taken a lot longer had I not cut off the fat
cap and used it like a basting blanket. As luck would have it, I ran
out of beer and the liquor store was closed up for the night. The last
4 hours of the cook was a very dry haul. I wrapped some aluminum foil
around the narrow end just so it wouldn't turn into dry, overcooked
junk. That worked pretty well.

Jim

"Peter" wrote in
:

I picked up a small (1 1/2lbs) boneless shoulder picknic pork roast
for $2.49 a pound at the local market. The wrap say that it's been
seasoned with "spices, sugar, garlic and natural flavors (!?)." Any
suggestions on smoking it? I'm thinking of just dropping it into the
ECB until I get an internal temp of about 145 and calling it done.
Any thing else I can do.

Peter



I would never cook any meat to under a temp of 160. Bacteria grows rapidly
in ranges of 40-150 degrees. Any meat cooled should reach a temp of less
than 40 degrees. Any meat cooked should be 'at least' 150. But it's best to
cook it to 160 or more. Pork should be cooked to an even higher temp than
beef.

In the food industry OSHA standards require all food to be cooked to a
minimum of 165 and kept at a minimum of 150 degrees for serving.

Just my two cents.....

Robert wrote:

In the food industry OSHA standards require all food to be cooked to a
minimum of 165 and kept at a minimum of 150 degrees for serving.


Really? Thay don't allow medium rare steaks?

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Reg wrote in
. com:

Robert wrote:

In the food industry OSHA standards require all food to be cooked to a
minimum of 165 and kept at a minimum of 150 degrees for serving.


Really? Thay don't allow medium rare steaks?


ok, I was talking about "holding" food for serving.
Still, I don't think it's safe to cook PORK to medium rare. Now, if you
want to cook yourself some medium rare chicken, you go right ahead! :P

Robert wrote:

ok, I was talking about "holding" food for serving.

After cooking steak to 165 F you can hold it at any temp you want.
Just don't give it to me.

Still, I don't think it's safe to cook PORK to medium rare. Now, if you
want to cook yourself some medium rare chicken, you go right ahead! :P

Well, trichinae has an instant kill temp of 144 F, so I'm not sure
I'd cook pork to 165 F for safety reasons alone.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=9&PART=318&SECTION=10&YEAR=1998&TYPE =TEXT

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Reg wrote:
Robert wrote:

ok, I was talking about "holding" food for serving.
Still, I don't think it's safe to cook PORK to medium rare. Now, if
you
want to cook yourself some medium rare chicken, you go right ahead!
:P

Well, trichinae has an instant kill temp of 144 F, so I'm not sure
I'd cook pork to 165 F for safety reasons alone.


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...98&TYPE =TEXT


There was a post thread last summer that included some people in the
industry that essentially said the trich scare is way overblown. One person
mentioned that there has not been ONE SINGLE case of trichinosis in pork
since 1940.

Here's the thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ewwindow=1&saf
e=off&th=fdcf1a05184e9cd4&rnum=1

D
--

Robert wrote:

I would never cook any meat to under a temp of 160. Bacteria grows
rapidly in ranges of 40-150 degrees.

Actually, the food safety temp is 41F to 140F

Any meat cooled should reach a
temp of less than 40 degrees. Any meat cooked should be 'at least'
150.

It depends on the meat. For example, hamburger needs to be cooked to 155F
and held at that temp for at least 15 seconds. Seafoods, beef, veal, ham are
recommended to be cooked to 145F, INCLUDING THE TIME IT TAKES OUT OF THE
OVEN TO RISE TO THAT TEMP.

But it's best to cook it to 160 or more. Pork should be cooked
to an even higher temp than beef.

In the food industry OSHA standards require all food to be cooked to a
minimum of 165 and kept at a minimum of 150 degrees for serving.

Just an FYI, OSHA doesn't regulate commercial food prep, the USDA does, and
it is the local health departments that implements the regulations. When
working for our health district, meat was required to be cooked to it's
proper temperature -- there was not just ONE temperature standard -- and
then held at least to141F.

But this is talking about commercial establishments that will be preparing
and holding large quantities of food for customers to order throughout the
day. At home, where food is going to be eaten or stored after a single
meal -- Thanksgiving for example -- the recommendations are different.
Cooked meats or other foods that aren't consumed within a two hour period
must either be thrown out or stored in the refrigerator.

Observance of proper methods to avoid cross-contamination in the preparation
of foods is the same regardles of where food is prepared.

Reg wrote:
Robert wrote:

In the food industry OSHA standards require all food to be cooked to a
minimum of 165 and kept at a minimum of 150 degrees for serving.


Really? Thay don't allow medium rare steaks?

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

I guess that leaves out my stuffed pork loin. Cooket to an internal temp of 115
to 120 and allowed to dwell for a while before slicing. As far as pork goes,
it's done.

BOB

"Robert" wrote in message
92.32...
Reg wrote in
. com:

Robert wrote:

In the food industry OSHA standards require all food to be cooked to a
minimum of 165 and kept at a minimum of 150 degrees for serving.


Really? Thay don't allow medium rare steaks?


ok, I was talking about "holding" food for serving.
Still, I don't think it's safe to cook PORK to medium rare. Now, if you
want to cook yourself some medium rare chicken, you go right ahead! :P

Just curious, Robert, but what is it you're worried about when cooking pork?
If it's wild pork, then certainly one should cook to a temp to kill
trichinae, but if it's the industrial farm raised pigmeat we all buy at the
grocery, trichinosis isn't a concern and hasn't been for decades (no cases
of trichinosis reported). Now, the gummint wants us to cook the bejeezus
outta everything, but they're the same folks who tell us that a "safe" dose
of over-the-counter Aleve is the same for a 92 pound 87 year-old woman as
for a 220 pound 19 year-old football player.
Duh, I don't think so.
Medium rare pork tastes pretty good to me - I do it that way frequently and
I don't have any tapeworms...at least that I know of. My scale would prolly
tell me if I did.

Jack Curry

As a medical technologist in the Navy for 20 years, I spent most of my
career working in Microbiology and Parasitology laboratories. I've
done parasitology work from Saudi Arabia to the Philippines and have
seen shit (no pun intended) that is fairly uncommon in the States.

So here's my two cents worth:

In reviewing the Center for Disease Controls statistics on
Trichinosis, a couple of things are apparent. First, Trichinosis
infections are fairly rare in America averaging about 38 cases a year
and usually occur in Ethnic populations that eat undercooked meat
(pig, bear, felines, etc), or meat from animals that are fed meat
by-products.

Trichinella larvae in pork are killed by freezing at 5 F for 21 days
(or longer if meat is greater than 15 cm thick); however, Trichinella
larvae present in wild game are often relatively resistant to
freezing. Cooking is one of the most common methods of assuring that
Trichinella are destroyed;"..... a temperature of 170 F substantially
exceeds the thermal death point and is usually achieved if the meat is
cooked until it is no longer pink".

The actual temperature that Trichinella is killed is 137 F. While the
CDC recommends cooking port to 170 F, I believe it's overkill. I
think if you're cooking commercially raised pork from regulated
suppliers, you have very little chance of ever getting exposed to
parasites.

Barbecuers take our pork to temperatures well above the kill zone so
were safe. As for chops, roasts, etc, I cook them until the have the
faintest pink tinge left, usually around 145 F. I'd give up chops
entirely if I had to cook them past medium.

BKahuna wrote:

The actual temperature that Trichinella is killed is 137 F.

Not quite. The "instant kill" temperature of trichinella is
more like 144 F. At 137 F you need a minimum exposure
time of about 2 - 3 minutes.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=9&PART=318&SECTION=10&YEAR=1998&TYPE =TEXT

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:53:30 GMT, Reg wrote:

Not quite. The "instant kill" temperature of trichinella is
more like 144 F. At 137 F you need a minimum exposure
time of about 2 - 3 minutes.

If you took a chunk of meat and placed it in a source of heat, and
removed it from the source of heat the exact instant it reached 137 F,
the temperature would continue to rise for a while.

I think it's safe to assume that removing pork at 137F would provide
the additional time and temperature to render the parasite dead.

But yes, killing cooties in food is a function of both time and
temperature,

I think the important point to remember in this whole thread is not to
overcook pork because of fear. There just isn't anything worse then
dessicated pork.