"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
news:IJvRj.7367$r12.2325@trndny03...
Joseph wrote:

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

Nope. All you're doing is re-heating par-boiled food.


I can see where this would take it out of being considered BBQ,
but what would be the purpose of boiling? Just to cut the grilling
time?

There are all sorts of reasons that people who use that practice give,
(render fat, tenderize meat) none of which needs boiling to produce the
results desired. The downside is that boiling meat is what you do to
produce stocks and broths, where water is used as a solvent to move the
nutrients and flavors of meats into the water. The end result is a bland,
flavorless meat the BEGS for an addendum to give the meat some sort of
flavor......... which is why this type of meat preparation is then LOADED
with sauce.

REAL bbq doesn't need one steenkin' drop of sauce for flavor. Sauce is
usually offered as a 'dipping' condiment. Even those pit guys who glaze
their ribs with sauce out of the pit usually make it a light coat so that
it doesn't disguise the flavor of the meat. Of course, when the meat HAS
NO flavor, sauce is all you got.

It has been tried. There is a reason why those who truly understand
and respect the art of bbq get hot under the collar and real ****ed
when someone includes boling meat as a category of "bbq".

Sorry 'bout that...

No biggie. You'll understand as you gain experience with the art and
cuisine of bbq.

Good luck with the log. I tend to enjoy good bbq wherever I go, and
tend to think that whatever good bbq I have in my mouth at the time
is the best. :-)

I have heard many here mention keeping a log. Haven't in the
past and was just considering starting one.

I would wager that most everyone on this NG has done each and every
style (except for the purulent boiled meat). You might want to look
at the FAQ we use:
http://www.eaglequest.com/~bbq/faq2/toc.html


I have read these more than once. It has been a while though, so
I looked at BBQ definition and the southwest method appears to
qualify... I also forgot how much great info was in there, thanks
again to those involved in creating and maintaining it.

--Excerpt from FAQ--

"For our purpose here, we are using the term to describe meat,
slow-cooked, using wood smoke to add flavor."

Notice the semantic construct: "to add flavor". That is what must be kept
in mind; smoke is a spice, a flavoring. A pit master adds as much or as
little of that spice as he deems desirable. Traditional North Carolina bbq
is a prime example. Eat at someplace like Lexington #1 which still uses
traditional open pit cooking with pre-burned wood charcoal, and there is
not much -- if any -- smoke flavoring.

For some folks, it tastes bland and as far from their perception of what
bbq should taste like as one could get.

So, if smoke flavoring is "required" in order to be considered bbq, then
one would have to decide at what level the smoke taste is sufficient. At
what level is the flavor so negligable that it is NOT bbq. Would Lexington
#1 be able to meet the bbq standard based on smoke flavor?

Thanks Dave, great post as I know it was right off the cuff.


"Barbecuing is cooking by using indirect heat or low-level direct
radiant heat at lower temperatures and longer cooking times."

If taken at face value then that would mean an oven can cook bbq.

-- Also --

"[Why is my barbecued chicken pink? Is it still raw?]"

-- --

BBQ'd chicken?

I agree.

--
Dave www.davebbq.com

What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

On 28 Apr 2008 04:23:16 GMT, Nick Cramer
wrote:

"Joseph" wrote:
"Denny Wheeler" wrote in message
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:35:11 -0700, "Joseph"
I haven't ever tried the boil and grill/smoke method yet either.
Is it worth a try and where does it come from???

Boil and grill? That originates in hell. It sure the hell ain't bbq.

Now if I were to take a par boiled piece of meat and then smoke it
low
and slow, would it not be BBQ.

Absolutely would not be BBQ.

Ok, not trying to start anything here, just a back yard guy who has
been doing chicken and ribs for a long time. Got the new rig and am
venturing out. By no means do I claim to be a knowledgeable Q'er, like a
great many here.

No one's trying to put you down, Joseph. Experience remains the best
teacher. Have fun.

Exactly right, Nick.

Joseph, I was merely giving an emphatic answer to what I perceived as
your question. And part of the reason I was emphatic is that 10-14
years ago, or so, I thought "parboil then cremate over charcoal" was
BBQ. (I got better.)

"Every single religion that has a monotheistic god
winds up persecuting someone else."
-Philip Pullman
--
-denny-
(not as curmudgeonly as I useta be)

"Joseph" wrote:
"Nick Cramer" wrote in message
"Joseph" wrote:
"Denny Wheeler" wrote in message
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:35:11 -0700, "Joseph"
[ . . . ]
Just wanted to make sure I didn't come off as a troll.

Droll, perhaps, but not a troll (yet)! ;-D

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!
I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They
are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not
forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

"Joseph" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
Nunya Bidnits wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
Nunya Bidnits wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
Joseph wrote:
[ . . . ]
Yea but, I didn't know mutton was king. You wrote mutton but I was
thinking horse when you mentioned Kentucky...

I've never had it, but horse meat is supposedly very good.

Horsemeat is lean, protein-rich, finely textured, bright red, firm, and
moreso horses are immune to BSE (Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy). Tough
meat cuts must be cooked long enough to tenderise connective tissue
(collagen), or marinated before cooking to ensure both flavour and
tenderness.

French, Italians, Swiss, Japanese and Quebecois in Canada are horse meat
aficionados and most of the 65,000 horses slaughtered in the USA were
shipped to Europe, Japan and to the province of Quebec.

Hey, Beedlebaum! If you're not a winner, you're dinner!!!

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!
I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They
are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not
forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

Joseph wrote:

Really? I've eaten at quite a few KC joints and not a one boils meat
prior to the pit. Which one boils their meat?

I was refering to the thick sweet sauce.

That's also not generically true of KC barbecue. Perhaps the most famous of
all KC joints, Bryant's, uses a thin vinegar and cayenne based sauce as
their primary (signature) sauce.

To more correctly characterize KC barbecue, its true you see more wet
barbecue around here, but not exclusively. Around here pitmasters try to
develop their cooking, rub seasonings, and sauces into a flavor "package",
where all those elements are complimentary and distinctive to the restaurant
in question. Whether you eat ribs from a local Q with or without sauce, you
can often still tell by the seasoning where they came from. This isn't true
of all the Q restaurants of course, but it is true of the most successful
and best appreciated. So its not that there is one thick gooey sweet sauce
smeared all over town, and in fact, some of them aren't so thick, or so
sweet, and may restaurants offer several versions of their sauce, while
still trying to retain a distinctive signature flavor.

So if you are going to try to duplicate KC style, that may be your greatest
challenge, because you need to develop your own set of comprehensive cooking
techniques, seasonings, and sauces that define a finished product. But just
cooking some meat over hickory and putting sweet sauce on it does not make
it KC style. You can get that in lots of places.

MartyB in KC

Joseph wrote:

Boil and grill is Yankee Style barbecue. The idea is that you
par-cook the meat in water until all the fat and flavor are gone,
then you toss in on the grill to finish and paint it with bottled
barbecue sauce until it burns. Best to use the sweetest sauce you
can find as the sugar burns nice and black.

Sounds like the KC method to me...

Maybe you should try some KC barbecue before you decide its something
awful
like that. Or maybe we got our reputation for flavorless meat with
burnt on
sugar.

I don't think I degraded KC BBQ. Just saying the style refers
to the thick sweet sauce basted on them ribs... "Good Eats"

Whatever, but I have lived here all my life and have yet to meet anyone who
likes barbecue with sweet sauce burnt black on their food. That's nasty. A
place that did that wouldn't last ten minutes in KC.

Glazing ribs to caramelize a thin sauce on the surface over a low fire
during the final cooking process is actually more of a Memphis thing if you
ask me. That is unless you are in one of their dry rib joints. g The
majority of Q's here tend to mop, but not to caramelize. But not all of
them. Some glaze, some cooke completely dry. That is what is nice around
here, if you don't like the way one place does it, you can always find
another one you love.

MartyB

Dave Bugg wrote:
%----------

"Barbecuing is cooking by using indirect heat or low-level direct
radiant heat at lower temperatures and longer cooking times."

If taken at face value then that would mean an oven can cook bbq.

And a gas fired barbecue grill and smoker, set up for indirect heat, is
virtually the same thing, and that is considered barbecue as well, so I
guess that means you can barbecue in your indoor oven. Does that mean gas
ovens only, because the definition doesn't say fire, it says heat?

I've had the NC versions of pulled pork where no wood was used, only
charcoal, and I found it fell into the category of flavoring by sauce rather
than the cooking method. I am one of those who finds it very bland, but
again, its within the definition used here, and that is just my personal
preference. There was a time when I would have argued that it was not true
barbecue without the wood until I learned more about the many ways flavor
gets into, and out of, all kinds of foods.

There's also the element of smoke seasoning created directly by the food
whenever the heat source is directly below. As long as it doesn't flame on
due to excessive melting fat or a poorly managed fire, one of the reasons a
charcoal grilled steak, or even a gas grilled steak tastes better than one
cooked in an oven broiler is that the juicy drippings fall into the fire or
heat rails, and vaporize and smoke, rising back up around the meat.

There's one area where I don't give any quarter when it comes to the
definition of barbecue, and that is liquid smoke. Putting barbecue sauce and
liquid smoke on some meat, wrapping it in foil, and then slow cooking over
any sort of device is not barbecue, its sacrilege.

-- Also --

"[Why is my barbecued chicken pink? Is it still raw?]"

I always liked that one because chicken meat is not that color before its
cooked, but when people see the color of well smoked barbecued chicken meat
they think its raw.

MartyB in KC

Nick Cramer wrote:
"Joseph" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
Nunya Bidnits wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
Nunya Bidnits wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
Joseph wrote:
[ . . . ]
Yea but, I didn't know mutton was king. You wrote mutton but I
was thinking horse when you mentioned Kentucky...

I've never had it, but horse meat is supposedly very good.

Horsemeat is lean, protein-rich, finely textured, bright red, firm,
and moreso horses are immune to BSE (Bovine Spongiform
Encephalopathy). Tough meat cuts must be cooked long enough to
tenderise connective tissue (collagen), or marinated before cooking
to ensure both flavour and tenderness.

French, Italians, Swiss, Japanese and Quebecois in Canada are horse
meat aficionados and most of the 65,000 horses slaughtered in the USA
were shipped to Europe, Japan and to the province of Quebec.

Hey, Beedlebaum! If you're not a winner, you're dinner!!!

I don't know where you can even buy horsemeat around here. Buffalo has
become pretty common though.

Long aga a friend of my father's had a cookout and made horsemeat burgers
for all the guests. Thing was, he didn't tell them they were horse burgers
until after they had eaten and a number of the guests were pretty unhappy
with him. It ranged from horror over having eaten Black Beauty to the
expectation of having been poisoned. I don't think his dinner parties were
very popular after that incident.

MartyB in KC

Denny Wheeler wrote:
On 28 Apr 2008 04:23:16 GMT, Nick Cramer
wrote:

"Joseph" wrote:
"Denny Wheeler" wrote in
message
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:35:11 -0700, "Joseph"
I haven't ever tried the boil and grill/smoke method yet
either. Is it worth a try and where does it come from???

Boil and grill? That originates in hell. It sure the hell ain't
bbq.

Now if I were to take a par boiled piece of meat and then
smoke it low
and slow, would it not be BBQ.

Absolutely would not be BBQ.

Ok, not trying to start anything here, just a back yard guy
who has been doing chicken and ribs for a long time. Got the new
rig and am venturing out. By no means do I claim to be a
knowledgeable Q'er, like a great many here.

No one's trying to put you down, Joseph. Experience remains the best
teacher. Have fun.

Exactly right, Nick.

Joseph, I was merely giving an emphatic answer to what I perceived as
your question. And part of the reason I was emphatic is that 10-14
years ago, or so, I thought "parboil then cremate over charcoal" was
BBQ. (I got better.)

Its probably worth noting the difference between parboiling and boiling as
cooking techniques. Parboiling is intended simply to dissolve away excess
fat or other undesireable elements on the surface of food, or theoretically,
to tenderize. Its very quick and does not cook the meat through or render
out flavors and nutrients to develop a flavored liquid the way boiling does.
Its more kin to blanching than it is to boiling. After a parboil the food
can be hit with cold water to stop the cooking process.

Boiling is actually low temp cooking, but as Dave said, the problem with it
is that the water dissolves flavor and nutrients out of the food.

I note that the KCBS contest rules prohibit parboiling. Used correctly as a
pretreatment to low slow wood or charcoal cooking it won't necessarily do
harm and can help speed up the process if time is limited. So parboiling
shouldn't be given an entirely bad name, although its certainly not
necessary to produce good barbecue.

MartyB in KC

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
%----------

"Barbecuing is cooking by using indirect heat or low-level
direct radiant heat at lower temperatures and longer cooking times."

If taken at face value then that would mean an oven can cook bbq.

And a gas fired barbecue grill and smoker, set up for indirect heat,
is virtually the same thing,

It depends. The Ole Hickory pit I use and the Southern Pride pits use gas
burners to light logs which then provide the heat. I can use my Ole Hickory
in competitions as long as I disconnect the gas.

and that is considered barbecue as well, so I guess that means you can
barbecue in your indoor oven. Does that mean gas ovens only, because the
definition doesn't say fire, it says heat?

I suppose it comes down to using wood or a wood product like charcoal. If
someone wants to load up their indoor oven with wood chunks, that's probably
the same as using a Cookshack electric.

Of course, when you look at bbq competitions by the most well-known
sanctioning bodies, gas and electric heat is not allowed.

I've had the NC versions of pulled pork where no wood was used, only
charcoal,

That's traditional NC style...... open pit, pre-burned wood into coals which
are then shoveled into the pit. When I keep in mind that NC is where bbq
started in America, I can hardly argue that it is anything other than the
real deal.

and I found it fell into the category of flavoring by sauce rather than
the cooking method. I am one of those who finds it very bland,

I did to, at first. But then I focused on the texture and flavor of the pork
and really came to enjoy it.

but again, its within the definition used here, and that is just my
personal preference.

Although the definition is useful, I believe it is designed to be as
'inclusive' as possible.

There was a time when I would have argued that it was not true barbecue
without the wood until I learned more about the many ways flavor gets
into, and out of, all kinds of foods.

The other factor is that cooking with charcoal IS an open fire combustion
process. In fact, when log-burners burn down their logs, it goes into coals
which sustains further combustion.

There's also the element of smoke seasoning created directly by the
food whenever the heat source is directly below. As long as it
doesn't flame on due to excessive melting fat or a poorly managed
fire, one of the reasons a charcoal grilled steak, or even a gas
grilled steak tastes better than one cooked in an oven broiler is
that the juicy drippings fall into the fire or heat rails, and
vaporize and smoke, rising back up around the meat.

There's one area where I don't give any quarter when it comes to the
definition of barbecue, and that is liquid smoke. Putting barbecue
sauce and liquid smoke on some meat, wrapping it in foil, and then
slow cooking over any sort of device is not barbecue, its sacrilege.

-- Also --

"[Why is my barbecued chicken pink? Is it still raw?]"

I always liked that one because chicken meat is not that color before
its cooked, but when people see the color of well smoked barbecued
chicken meat they think its raw.

I almost stopped providing smoke-roasted chicken on the menu because of
that. I had constant questions about whether the chicken was properly
cooked. I even had a few customers angrily and loudly denounce the chicken
as being raw and then stomping out the door. From the fuss you'd have
thought I'd called their mama a whore or some such. I just took my thermopen
over to the table, and did a public reading of the temperature so the rest
of the customers knew the chicken wasn't raw.

After a bit, the customers understood about smoke-rings and myoglobin
reaction to wood smoke, etc. I even handed out a little xeroxed note
explaining such to new customers who ordered chicken.

I won't even describe how many times, at first, that I would leave the
restaurant out the kitchen door to visit the wood pile so I could denounce
the foolishness of people, the mini-facisim of the food police, and my own
stupidity for putting up with that crap. I got over it pretty quickly
though. The desire to make money does that to you.

--
Dave www.davebbq.com

What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

Dave Bugg wrote:
Nunya Bidnits wrote:
Dave Bugg wrote:
%----------

"Barbecuing is cooking by using indirect heat or low-level
direct radiant heat at lower temperatures and longer cooking
times."

If taken at face value then that would mean an oven can cook bbq.

And a gas fired barbecue grill and smoker, set up for indirect heat,
is virtually the same thing,

It depends. The Ole Hickory pit I use and the Southern Pride pits use
gas burners to light logs which then provide the heat. I can use my
Ole Hickory in competitions as long as I disconnect the gas.

Understood. The fellows in the pit behind us at the Royal had a pair of
them, one larger than the other, although probably smaller than what you are
using. One was about the size of a Cookshack FE100 and the other was a
little larger. They rolled them in and out of their trailer with an electric
wench, which told me either they were a ways heavier than the FE100, or they
were sissies. ;-)

I was *very* impressed with their design, and the resulting meats. Its the
same type of control technology as the FE but uses real wood instead of
pellets for a much better flavor, and conserves fuel as well. It's the best
of both worlds if you ask me, electronic controls to eliminate the guesswork
associated with different wood fuels, wind, and ambient temperature, and the
flavor that you can only get from a real wood fire.

There was also one of the motorhome guys who had two of the same OH models
mounted inside the back of his huge fifth wheel trailer with ductwork
connecting them to vents in the roof. Pretty impressive, and a pretty
expensive setup too, I'm certain.

I even scored an Ole Hickory ball cap which I wear while cooking with the
team on an FE. ;-)

How large is your OH? Did it come trailer mounted? I was curious about the
cost of the freestanding units but didn't see any prices on the website the
last time I looked. I'm guessing they run about the same as the FEs in the
same size class.

MartyB in KC

Nunya Bidnits wrote:

How large is your OH? Did it come trailer mounted? I was curious
about the cost of the freestanding units but didn't see any prices on
the website the last time I looked. I'm guessing they run about the
same as the FEs in the same size class.

Mine is an EL model, and will hold about 650 lbs of meat. It weighs about
2400 and is mounted to its stand which sits on big casters. It is able to be
pushed by one person, but it takes an electric wench to move it onto a
tilting trailer. I don't move it very often :-)

--
Dave www.davebbq.com

What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
They rolled them in and out of their trailer with an electric
wench,

MartyB in KC


I want one of those!! Can it do other tricks? vbg

Brian

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:11:08 GMT, "Nunya Bidnits"
wrote:

Nick Cramer wrote:


I've never had it, but horse meat is supposedly very good.

Horsemeat is lean, protein-rich, finely textured, bright red, firm,
and moreso horses are immune to BSE (Bovine Spongiform
Encephalopathy). Tough meat cuts must be cooked long enough to
tenderise connective tissue (collagen), or marinated before cooking
to ensure both flavour and tenderness.

French, Italians, Swiss, Japanese and Quebecois in Canada are horse
meat aficionados and most of the 65,000 horses slaughtered in the USA
were shipped to Europe, Japan and to the province of Quebec.

Hey, Beedlebaum! If you're not a winner, you're dinner!!!

I don't know where you can even buy horsemeat around here. Buffalo has
become pretty common though.

Long aga a friend of my father's had a cookout and made horsemeat burgers
for all the guests. Thing was, he didn't tell them they were horse burgers
until after they had eaten and a number of the guests were pretty unhappy
with him. It ranged from horror over having eaten Black Beauty to the
expectation of having been poisoned. I don't think his dinner parties were
very popular after that incident.

There used to be a butcher shop in S. Seattle which sold more
horsemeat than anything else. It's so lean, the cooking techniques
differ--especially for burgers. Were I to try horsemeat burgers now,
I'd want to mix in some fat.

It's tasty, though.

"Every single religion that has a monotheistic god
winds up persecuting someone else."
-Philip Pullman
--
-denny-
(not as curmudgeonly as I useta be)

"Nunya Bidnits" wrote in message
.. .
Joseph wrote:

Really? I've eaten at quite a few KC joints and not a one boils meat
prior to the pit. Which one boils their meat?

I was refering to the thick sweet sauce.

That's also not generically true of KC barbecue. Perhaps the most famous
of
all KC joints, Bryant's, uses a thin vinegar and cayenne based sauce as
their primary (signature) sauce.

To more correctly characterize KC barbecue, its true you see more wet
barbecue around here, but not exclusively. Around here pitmasters try to
develop their cooking, rub seasonings, and sauces into a flavor "package",
where all those elements are complimentary and distinctive to the
restaurant
in question. Whether you eat ribs from a local Q with or without sauce,
you
can often still tell by the seasoning where they came from. This isn't
true
of all the Q restaurants of course, but it is true of the most successful
and best appreciated. So its not that there is one thick gooey sweet sauce
smeared all over town, and in fact, some of them aren't so thick, or so
sweet, and may restaurants offer several versions of their sauce, while
still trying to retain a distinctive signature flavor.

So if you are going to try to duplicate KC style, that may be your
greatest
challenge, because you need to develop your own set of comprehensive
cooking
techniques, seasonings, and sauces that define a finished product. But
just
cooking some meat over hickory and putting sweet sauce on it does not make
it KC style. You can get that in lots of places.

I am not sure where I picked up the thick sweet sauce from. Clarifying
the different styles was part of the original intent of my post. By the
responses I have gotten using styles assigned to specific areas of the
country may not be the way to categorize the different BBQ or Smoking
methods. Now I am thinking of categorizing the techniques by the individual
elements of BBQ.

Like type of animal, cuts, temperature, charcoal/wood, wood types,
marinades, dry rubs/mops, base for sauce (if any) and with or without a
liquid (beer) bath.

Thanks again for all the fresh input, I know a lot of it is old news.

Joseph


MartyB in KC