wrote:
What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
recipe closely (a different one than you tried this time) to see what
happens without second-guessing it. I suggest trying a very basic white
bread recipe and follow it exactly. No additions, no subtractions.

Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

Don't do that. Put the dry ingredients into the work bowl and add
liquids to it. If the recipe gives a range of liquid to add, put the
lower figure in. Then do what it tells you to do.

I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
by the hook as it rotates ...

My bread doughs almost never behave so perfectly. There's almost always
a bit of sticking, particularly with the stickier doughs. Read more
about bread doughs. Anything by Maggie Glezer. Carol Field's baking
books. "Bread" by Bernard Dupaigne.

otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

That's not a danger, it's a stage. It sounds like you're getting
"creative" with the recipes. It also sounds like your dough is way too
dry - too much flour.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it?

Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Try a different recipe from an authoritative source and stick to it.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
recipe closely

I did follow the recipe last time and the dough didn't "ball up". I
feel the need to add more flour because the dough doesn't stay
balled-up for the duration of the kneading.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it?
Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

Okay ...what does happen to you? How long do you knead and what does
your dough look like when you knead? Does it ball-up and stay
balled-up for ten minutes of kneading (ie. doesn't stick to the bowl)?

Thanks in advance for your feedback,
Patrick

wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
recipe closely

I did follow the recipe last time and the dough didn't "ball up". I
feel the need to add more flour because the dough doesn't stay
balled-up for the duration of the kneading.

It won't necessarily. The dough hook will slap some against the side of
the bowl and tear itself out of the ball and pick up some more and flap
it around... depending on the kind of dough it is.

Follow the recipe all the way through one time. And do a straightforward
bread - a white bread so you can see how it should go.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it?

Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

Okay ...what does happen to you? How long do you knead and what does
your dough look like when you knead? Does it ball-up and stay
balled-up for ten minutes of kneading (ie. doesn't stick to the bowl)?

Different bread doughs behave differently. It sounds like you expect
them all to act the same way. Some stick - my French bread is a sticky
dough - my crusty rolls are stiffer and don't stick as much. A black rye
bread I do ends up very dense and the dough is sticky. I scrape it out
of the bowl. Knead more by hand.

You want general principles that apply to all breads and I'm afraid
you're in for disappointment if you look for that expecting not to have
to make it differently for different types.

Read more, like I told you, about bread. You're guessing a lot and
bakery recipes aren't so forgiving. You'll be astonished that all of a
sudden, after a bit of reading, it'll all click into place. You'll "get
it." But first, you need to ride the shoulders of some giants. Check out
those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries are good for that.

Pastorio

wrote in message
oups.com...
What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

It has happed to me. When things go wrong with the mixer, the best thing to
do is to remove the dough and work it by hand. If you are having this
problem on a regular basis, I would try another brand of flour. High
protein flour will absorb more water and you will need less and visa-versa.
In the end, it doesn't matter what the recipe says, it matters what the
dough feel like. If you need more flour and the final product is good, then
use more flour and don't worry about it. I have that book and I don't
recall having any major problems with the recipes, although I do think that
I tend to use more flour than she calls for.

Bob (this one) wrote:
Knead more by hand.

I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it. Large bakeries
have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They don't take it out
and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to this that someone is
capable of verbalizing.

Check out
those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries are good for that.

Well my library has only one of them ...will get it next time. Also
they have a good video that I've seen once and need to see again; "La
Rosas [art of fine bread]"(or something). Also I recently got from our
library Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's apprentice" That's a good one
isn't it?

Patrick

wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Knead more by hand.

I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it.

Then, as kindly as I can say it, don't try to make bread. Bread takes
its own time to be right. It can't be rushed and still get the quality
of result. My suggestion for you to knead was for you to slow down and
get a feel for the dough. Your hands can tell you more about the dough
than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
afraid it doesn't work that way.

Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
this that someone is capable of verbalizing.

Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
and techniques than you are.

You're trying to make it too much of an intellectual, abstract situation
and my sense is that baking can't be thought of that way. Once again,
I'll say that different doughs have very different characteristics. You
can't extrapolate a single set of criteria for them all.

Check out those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries
are good for that.

Well my library has only one of them ...will get it next time. Also
they have a good video that I've seen once and need to see again;
"La Rosas [art of fine bread]"(or something). Also I recently got
from our library Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's apprentice" That's a
good one isn't it?

Yes, it is. And there are lots of good online sites about baking. And
some bad ones. After reading a dozen or so, you'll begin to see which
are authoritative and which are blowing smoke. But there's no substitute
for greater knowledge and more hands-on experience when considering bread.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
this that someone is capable of verbalizing.

Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
and techniques than you are.

Are you saying that these ingredients, recipes and techniques don't
scale down to a smaller KA "Professional Heavy-Duty 475w" 5qt mixer
doing a 2-loaf recipe? When they knead their dough does it stick to
the bowl and tear as the hook rotates?

Patrick

I'm using: King Arthur Bread Flour and King Arthur White Whole Wheat
flour (both unbleached). Also I sometimes use a very small amount
(~half cup) of Buckwheat flour (I'm a buckwheat person).

Patrick

I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it. Large bakeries
have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They don't take it out
and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to this that someone is
capable of verbalizing

Those bakers using machines understand the principles. of the KNEADING
PROCESS ..but unfortunately for you .IMO ..YOU DON'T...!

The logic of your failure is indeed simple...that is .you are
inflexible or stubborn , apprehensive , and impatient...

Inflexible...you are unwilling to try some ideas posted here

Apprehensive....you are worried that the dough is too wet that is why
you dump more flour that results in your problem

Impatient- you don't have the patience to get the feel of the dough by
hand by practicing hand kneading and relate that to the machine mxing
and conversely ....You want to make the dough .....ONLY with machines!

If you don't understand how the dough evolves from the flour and water
by doing it manually and getting the right feel about iit before you
use the mixers will be difficult for your inflexible mind to grasp the
basic principles of breadmaking.even if you have the state of the art
machineries to do the task.

Those three defects....Inflexibility, apprehensiveness, and
impatience...are the ones that you have to tackle first before ....you
try to obtain the solution to your 'simple 'problem

..That are the main faults that I find from some slow to learn
students when I was a part time teacher in the baking school....in
the past


If you are impatient, but inexperienced and demand the result to
come out consistent and perfect the first time you make a certain
dough recipe .you will never get what you want.

...Please take time to think and relate to your faulty experience the
guidance from many posters of your thread .

What is happening to you can be related to the Chinese saying...

..You want to drink my tea ,, then empty your cup first so I can pour my
brew into it...
That is the way it is...

If you insist in your way that literally your cup is full ( or you
think that you are already knowledgeable?) and don't want to decant
it as you think its as good ( or your methods is already the right one
) then this thread will end in a stalemate.....this thread will
perpetuate without you absorbing anything useful from it.

You want to profit from the posters ideas here.....Re-read the posts
and think...about it...

..Some ideas posted in the thread may not be the answer you are
looking for ..but they are related to your question ..... If and only
IF you exercise patience and think about it...you will realize that
all posts to this thread have important views that can help solve
your problem...

wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
this that someone is capable of verbalizing.

Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
and techniques than you are.

Are you saying that these ingredients, recipes and techniques don't
scale down to a smaller KA "Professional Heavy-Duty 475w" 5qt mixer
doing a 2-loaf recipe?

They don't. Baking recipes don't scale as readily as most others. But
you're missing the point: commercial bakeries aren't doing the same kind
of thing you are. It's, for all intents and purposes, a different series
of tasks. Note "different ingredients" and "different equipment" and
"different recipes" and "different techniques."

When they knead their dough does it stick to
the bowl and tear as the hook rotates?

Forgive me, Patrick, but I grow impatient with this. Go read about bread
and baking. When you know more, ask more questions not so basic and
filled with conjectures. Maybe read a professional baking book with
professional recipes - Wayne Gisslen's is easy reading and very
authoritative - so you can grasp the differences.

What seems like a simple subject is a good deal more complex than it
appears from the point of view of a rookie if you try to analyze it this
way. But do note that millions of amateur bakers produce perfectly
serviceable breads every day without knowing all the technical
intricacies. It's entirely possible to sophisticate oneself unto paralysis.

Pastorio

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:51:24 -0500, "Bob (this one)"
wrote:

Your hands can tell you more about the dough
than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
afraid it doesn't work that way.

Tell me that you can make 75 loaves on your next shift and then tell
me how your eyes and your arms are doing.

A loaf....OK................production yet leads to another
conclusion.

On 20 Jan 2006 20:17:47 -0800, wrote:

What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Often, a simple resting of the dough will eliminate the
stickiness problem:

I'd suggest mixing the ingredients just long enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour.

Then, do nothing with it for about twenty minutes.

Then, continue with whatever process you intended.

It is likely to solve the problem you describe, and adding
all that extra flour is not the route to success.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Ward Abbott wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:51:24 -0500, "Bob (this one)"
wrote:

Your hands can tell you more about the dough
than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
afraid it doesn't work that way.

Tell me that you can make 75 loaves on your next shift and then tell
me how your eyes and your arms are doing.

A loaf....OK..production yet leads to another conclusion.

The person I wrote that to is baking in his home. It's not a production
situation anything like what we did in my restaurants. If it were, the
suggestion would obviously have been different, couched in professional
terms. But the whole discussion wouldn't have happened with a pro.

Pastorio

Kenneth wrote:
Hi Patrick,
Often, a simple resting of the dough will eliminate the
stickiness problem:
I'd suggest mixing the ingredients just long enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour.
Then, do nothing with it for about twenty minutes.

Yes, Okay this sounds like a good plan.
Thanks Kenneth,
Patrick

wrote:
What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Patrick


Why do you believe that the dough has to form a complete ball and clean
the bowl? Is the bread you are getting unsatisfactory?


--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”