Sorry if these are dumb questions...

1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into
each other? Any precautions to take?

2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
(above)?

TIA,
-L.

"-L." wrote in message
oups.com...
Sorry if these are dumb questions...

1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into
each other? Any precautions to take?

2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
(above)?


Ideally the cream cheese frosting should be refrigerated. It is unlikely
that the colors will run more in the refrigerator than if left at room
temperature. That said, there is so much sugar in the frosting that it is
unlikely that it will spoil if left out over night.

When in doubt it is always best to discard food products. But, since there
is so much alcohol in vanilla extract, it is unlikely to make you sick. One
way to flavor the frosting would be to use vanilla powder. I don't know of
any way to flavor it with the bean except to put a whole bean in the sugar
and let it sit for an extended time.

Vox Humana wrote:

Ideally the cream cheese frosting should be refrigerated. It is unlikely
that the colors will run more in the refrigerator than if left at room
temperature. That said, there is so much sugar in the frosting that it is
unlikely that it will spoil if left out over night.

When in doubt it is always best to discard food products. But, since there
is so much alcohol in vanilla extract, it is unlikely to make you sick. One
way to flavor the frosting would be to use vanilla powder. I don't know of
any way to flavor it with the bean except to put a whole bean in the sugar
and let it sit for an extended time.

Thanks - will take everything under advisement.
-L.

at Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:33:00 GMT in 1137058380.479607.320550
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, (-L.) wrote :

Sorry if these are dumb questions...

1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into
each other? Any precautions to take?

As Vox said, best to refrigerate, although left out on the counter it
shouldn't immediately spoil. However, one thing I thought I would add is
that if the cake is to be transported a fair distance, especially by car,
you definitely should refrigerate because the icing will soften if left out
and could sag or run during transit if unchilled. Furthermore, soft icing
has a notorious habit of sticking to boxes, shirts, knives, anything that
gets in contact with it.

Very minor terminological point: if the covering is fairly soft and fluffy,
then technically it should be called a "frosting", where an "icing" would
be a harder, shell-like covering.

2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
(above)?

Absolutely. Using the milk base, what you do is to scald the milk, split
the vanilla bean and scrape into the milk, then steep both scrapings and
bean in the milk for about 10 minutes or so - long enough for all the
little seeds to become totally separate instead of clumping. Then, chill
the mix. When chilled, fish out the bean and scrape off clinging milk and
bits back into the milk, and discard the bean. Then use the milk as usual.
Your icing will end up with inviting black spots in it indicating the use
of real vanilla.

If you have to have a pure white icing (e.g. for a wedding cake), then
steep the bean for longer - about 30 minutes, and at the point where you're
discarding the bean, run the mixture through a fine cheesecloth (coarse
won't do) or very fine sieve. This should get rid of the seeds, if you
absolutely must not have them in there.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

(-L.)WROTE:
Sorry if these are dumb questions...
1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into each
other? Any precautions to take?
2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I tasted
it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start anew? Is
there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing (above)?
TIA,------------------------------------------------
My Response: No matter how much I get flamed by this reply & I do get
flamed I go by what an retired food inspector through our local board of
health taught us in the food safety & handling course I took at a top
rated community college in culinary.
ANY food item with whole milk , butter,& eggs are to be stored in the
fridge PERIOD.
If any thing this gives me peace of mind & steers me away from these
products in grocery stores with listed ingredients stored on open non
refrigerated shelves.

I concur......HACCP is always in the mind of a competent food
processor...
Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient
overnight....but food safety rules must prevail specially if we are
producing food items for other peoples consumption.

Food items that have a a high water activity should be kept under
refrigeration.

chembake wrote:

I concur......HACCP is always in the mind of a competent food
processor...

Agreed, sorta. A bit too extreme for most baked goods.

Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient
overnight...

I don't understand this.

but food safety rules must prevail specially if we are
producing food items for other peoples consumption.

Absolutely. But they must be applied knowledgeably.

Food items that have a high water activity should be kept under
refrigeration.

Too sweeping a statement. Pickles are a good example of foods with high
water activity that can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations
of pH, water activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pastorio

Alex Rast wrote:

As Vox said, best to refrigerate, although left out on the counter it
shouldn't immediately spoil. However, one thing I thought I would add is
that if the cake is to be transported a fair distance, especially by car,
you definitely should refrigerate because the icing will soften if left out
and could sag or run during transit if unchilled. Furthermore, soft icing
has a notorious habit of sticking to boxes, shirts, knives, anything that
gets in contact with it.

Very minor terminological point: if the covering is fairly soft and fluffy,
then technically it should be called a "frosting", where an "icing" would
be a harder, shell-like covering.

LOL...my Midwestern upbringing is coming out. My Mom always called it
icing no matter what it was. Thanks for the clarification.


2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
(above)?

Absolutely. Using the milk base, what you do is to scald the milk, split
the vanilla bean and scrape into the milk, then steep both scrapings and
bean in the milk for about 10 minutes or so - long enough for all the
little seeds to become totally separate instead of clumping. Then, chill
the mix. When chilled, fish out the bean and scrape off clinging milk and
bits back into the milk, and discard the bean. Then use the milk as usual.
Your icing will end up with inviting black spots in it indicating the use
of real vanilla.

If you have to have a pure white icing (e.g. for a wedding cake), then
steep the bean for longer - about 30 minutes, and at the point where you're
discarding the bean, run the mixture through a fine cheesecloth (coarse
won't do) or very fine sieve. This should get rid of the seeds, if you
absolutely must not have them in there.

Thanks for the info. I will file it away for later use. This frosting
will be colored so flecks aren't an issue.

Thanks to all who replied. I think I willl stick the cake in the
fridge overnight and then take it out in the AM. The party is at noon,
and I am making the cake the night before.

-L.

I would add following as much as possible HACCP even when you don't
have the health dept looking at you. Although I seem to have been
blessed with an iron stomach many are not. At particular risk are folks
with compromised immune systems. It has disappeared from the news but
HIV is very much continuing to spread and a large number of people have
hepititis C. I have a friend with Lupus and another who had an organ
transplant and several who are on chemo. Many times these conditions
are unknow to others so it's helpful to me to try to assume someone in
a group I'm providing food for may have a compromised immune system and
act accordingly.
-Marylouise

-L. wrote:

1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated?

Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient
overnight...


..I don't understand this
That is reasonable
You had never been a baker but presumably just academician
......therrefore you never had first hand experience in cases where
occasional violations of HACCP rules works...

Pickles are a good example of foods with high
..water activity that can safely be stored at room temp. The
combinations
..of pH, water activity, preservatives and processing are the
determinants.

Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .
Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have to
use most of the time high processing temperatures ..( for example in
boiled icings)
Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at room temperatures...
In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake frosting materials
either


...

chembake wrote:

Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in
ambient overnight...

I don't understand this

That is reasonable You had never been a baker but presumably just
academician

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I
meant I didn't understand the sentence.

.....therrefore you never had first hand experience in cases where
occasional violations of HACCP rules works...

I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in grammar
school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have owned several
others since; I've run country club and resort operations, and consulted
about all phases of foodservice. I'm also a published food writer.

Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .

Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity that
matters, even for pastry. Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for
bacterial and mold growths, for example.

Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity and
low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake
frosting materials either

I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just being
concerned with water activity is misleading. Filled breads and pastries
use other foods that can support both spoilage and pathogenic bacteria
and molds. I'm saying that we should be careful with all of them.

Pastorio

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I
meant I didn't understand the sentence.



Well..
.. I worked in the food industry for decades and I know how chef's
think....in my observation they are good cooks and know how to manage
the kitchen but not competent enough to think ..in scientific fashion
..and sometimes forget to implement food safety procedures ..in their
day to day chores..
Just think about this, after years of training, experience and even
schooling, occasionally food poisoning still occurs...in their
kitchen...


I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in grammar
school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have owned several
others since; I've run country club and resort operations, and consulted
about all phases of foodservice. I'm also a published food writer.

So with all that experience ...do you think that you are already
qualified to talk about HACCP?
Besides
What does being a food writer have to do with food safety rules...?
Food journalists who are also chefs a....IMO (and even from
observation in some certain chefs who become writers ) .usually focus
on English composition and grammar than the food safety in their
kitchens...
During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA derived
food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your mentors....and if
you absorbed the habits of your traditional teachers ...its unlikely
that you will change instantly due to changing trends...in food
processing rules.. I had met and seen so many chefs in my career ....an
its often that in the old and highly experience chefs ,old habits
are difficult to change specially for high ranking chefs that have
egos as huge as a blimp.grin..


Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .

Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity that
matters, even for pastry.

Pastry?....yes they had lower moisture content and so have lower
water activity values compared to cakes and bread due to the high
amount of fat but they are still susceptible to spoilage..for example
....the .pastry casing is for meat pie but even when baked it does
not prevent it from getting spoiled ...Meat filling juices may seep
into the casings cracks and crevices increasing the moisture content
and hence the water activity....

Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for
bacterial and mold growths, for example.

Cheese and eggs used in general cookery usually results in moderate to
high water activity in the finished products , aside from the fact that
they provide an active culture media for microbes .... because of that
pathogens can live and multiply in them.......compromising food safety
of the finished food item.

Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity and
low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

Well molds can exist with slightly lower water activity than bacteria
and so is the fruit curd and fillings which have moderate Aw( water
activity) values which are highly subject to mold and yeast
fermentation ( which incidentally like to live in moderate water
activity).
Bacteria lives and multiplies in higher water activity values ...but
when bacteria weakens or dies due to the lowering of water
activity...the molds,fungi and yeasts takes its place....actively. .

Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake
frosting materials either


I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just being
concerned with water activity is misleading.

It only means one thing. IMO... I am sorry to say that you don't have
a deep understanding with water activity.,and its importance in food
processing.
..Anyway .Its not surprising as its pretty common with many highly
qualified chefs...and most of them scoffed at them including some
cookery school instructors grin.who don't follow what they preach
to their cookery students in the culinary school.
....just a few years ago....I met a well known chef who scoffed at
water activity and related terminology and became complacent (in the
his cookery methodologies that pertain to food safety) in his kitchen
Incidentally his HACCP program was found to be faulty. by the food
safety auditor /inspector and was never modified after continuous
warning... from other inspectors who visited his kitchen in the past.
....He scornfully told the inspector...
I had been running this restaurant for more than three decades and
still I never did have any serious food related incident that led my
restaurants closure...
Further
He sneered at them and said.....Stick your water activity (and
stringent food safety rules ) into your arse !
A few months later his kitchen and restaurant were shut down due to
a large number of people who were hospitalized from salmonella
poisoning...from contaminated food eaten during a banquet in his
restaurant......

I had seen a number of restaurant in many places that succumb to this
kind of complacency with disastrous results to their restaurants, and
their reputation.

Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we should be careful with all of them.

Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
0.90's .so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already considered
as spoilage....
Fillings in bread are sensitive to spoilage, it can be meat and dairy
based ; and both have moderate to high water activity as the low to
moderate amount of sugar but low salt and the usual absence of
humectants( which binds water) does not decrease water activity much
and therefore don't prevent osmophilic bacteria ,molds and yeast
from attacking it causing it to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the
water activity values can increase due to the breakdown of food
structure increasing the water content of the spoiled food leading to
other microbes ( including pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction
can led to a food hazards in many cases and people that are highly
sensitive can be the first to fall ill.
Even this so called jam fillings which can have water activity values
IIRC of 0.60-0.70 is still not immune to these hardy organism....And
certain people that are allergic to certain mold toxins are the first
to succumb to it.
Even your pickles with higher water activity can still be attacked by
halophilic ( salt loving ) bacteria ....However as of now I have not
heard of any body that is allergic to these salt loving bacteria ( or I
may not be aware of it happening elsewhere ) .The fermentation by
products can make food unpalatable....and a spoiled pickle can then
taste awful...
Many kitchen personnels may find these water activityAw, equilibrium
relative humidity (ERH ) terminology as too academic ..and useless in
practical situation but they are wrong!
...

I had been in the food processing industry for decades and although in
baking,patisserie and confectionery are my field....I still exercise
care when preparing food for institutions and have to remind myself
often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry

Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
water activity in the general food processing...

chembake wrote:

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I
didn't understand the sentence.

Well.. . I worked in the food industry for decades and I know how
chef's think....in my observation they are good cooks and know how to
manage the kitchen but not competent enough to think ..in scientific
fashion

My undergraduate degree is in English with a biological sciences minor.
I had originally started university as a pre-medical student only to
discover after a few years that while I liked and was a very good
student of sciences, moving into medicine proved to be an area that I
decided I didn't like. My background in science is good.

.and sometimes forget to implement food safety procedures ..in their
day to day chores.. Just think about this, after years of training,
experience and even schooling, occasionally food poisoning still
occurs...in their kitchen...

You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about
anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.

I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in
grammar school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have
owned several others since; I've run country club and resort
operations, and consulted about all phases of foodservice. I'm also
a published food writer.

So with all that experience ...do you think that you are already
qualified to talk about HACCP?

Yes. I do. I have routinely dealt with local, state and federal
inspection agencies and conformed to their standards. I and all my
employees had to go through the courses offered by all health
departments for food service operations. I've taken the Better
Processing course administered by the Food and Drug Administration and
have had my food manufacturing operations subject to their inspections.

Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety
rules...?

It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the
publications I've written for, the information must be good and the
sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food
Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food
and Drink. It's partly about food safety.

Food journalists who are also chefs a....IMO (and even from
observation in some certain chefs who become writers) usually focus
on English composition and grammar than the food safety in their
kitchens...

Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care
what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears
only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more
knowledgeable. A scientist waits for evidence.

During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA
derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your
mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional
teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to
changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so
many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly
experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially
for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp.grin..

What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in
themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?

Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .

Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity
that matters, even for pastry.

Pastry?....yes they had lower moisture content and so have lower
water activity values compared to cakes and bread due to the high
amount of fat but they are still susceptible to spoilage..for example
...the .pastry casing is for meat pie but even when baked it does
not prevent it from getting spoiled ...Meat filling juices may seep
into the casings cracks and crevices increasing the moisture
content and hence the water activity....


Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for bacterial and mold
growths, for example.

Cheese and eggs used in general cookery usually results in moderate
to high water activity in the finished products , aside from the fact
that they provide an active culture media for microbes .... because
of that pathogens can live and multiply in them.... compromising
food safety of the finished food item.

Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to.
Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding
anyway.

Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity
and low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

Well molds can exist with slightly lower water activity than
bacteria and so is the fruit curd and fillings which have moderate
Aw( water activity) values which are highly subject to mold and
yeast fermentation ( which incidentally like to live in moderate
water activity). Bacteria lives and multiplies in higher water
activity values ...but when bacteria weakens or dies due to the
lowering of water activity...the molds,fungi and yeasts takes its
place....actively. .

Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with
cake frosting materials either

I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just
being concerned with water activity is misleading.

It only means one thing. IMO... I am sorry to say that you don't have
a deep understanding with water activity, and its importance in food
processing.

I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful
and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and
infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries
(filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products.
I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating
these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues
are for all of them.

.Anyway .Its not surprising as its pretty common with many highly
qualified chefs...and most of them scoffed at them including some
cookery school instructors grin.who don't follow what they preach
to their cookery students in the culinary school. ...just a few
years ago....I met a well known chef who scoffed at water activity
and related terminology and became complacent (in the his cookery
methodologies that pertain to food safety) in his kitchen
Incidentally his HACCP program was found to be faulty. by the food
safety auditor /inspector and was never modified after continuous
warning... from other inspectors who visited his kitchen in the
past. ...He scornfully told the inspector... I had been running this
restaurant for more than three decades and still I never did have
any serious food related incident that led my restaurants closure...
Further He sneered at them and said.....Stick your water activity
(and stringent food safety rules ) into your arse ! A few months
later his kitchen and restaurant were shut down due to a large
number of people who were hospitalized from salmonella
poisoning...from contaminated food eaten during a banquet in his
restaurant......

I had seen a number of restaurant in many places that succumb to this
kind of complacency with disastrous results to their restaurants,
and their reputation.

I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And
I admire your style of insult.

Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both
spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we
should be careful with all of them.

Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
0.90's

Generally around .95

Cakes - .9 to .94
icing - .76 to .79

so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already
considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to
spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based; and both have moderate
to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but
low salt and the usual absence of humectants (which binds water)
does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent
osmophilic bacteria, molds and yeast from attacking it causing it
to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can
increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water
content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes (including
pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards
in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first
to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water
activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70

Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

is still not immune to these hardy
organism....And certain people that are allergic to certain mold
toxins are the first to succumb to it. Even your pickles with higher
water activity can still be attacked by halophilic (salt loving)
bacteria ....However as of now I have not heard of any body that is
allergic to these salt loving bacteria (or I may not be aware of it
happening elsewhere). The fermentation by-products can make food
unpalatable....and a spoiled pickle can then taste awful... Many
kitchen personnels may find these water activity Aw, equilibrium
relative humidity (ERH ) terminology as too academic ..and useless
in practical situation but they are wrong! ..

I appreciate your offering all this information in support of my
original position that water activity alone isn't the only concern for
food safety. That maintaining food safety requires a more sophisticated
view.

Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices
are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the
complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to
know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate
principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not academics.

I had been in the food processing industry for decades and although
in baking, patisserie and confectionery are my field....I still
exercise care when preparing food for institutions

Of course. There is no other way.

and have to remind
myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry

Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
water activity in the general food processing...

No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
water activity in the general food processing...

No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue.

Pastorio

I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced
coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I
have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered
in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium.
Must be a food science term he's hung up on, or something (honestly I
have never encountered the term.) His entire diatribe seems pretty
simplistic and, franky, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be
considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration,
light, heat, aeration, etc.

-L.

Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups.
He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.

But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!

Dave