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Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

Vinegar odor while baking bread



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 05:02 PM
[email protected]
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Default Vinegar odor while baking bread



Dee Randall wrote:
I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it, so
I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why a
bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.

Here goes:

While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
Hydration Formula) consisting of

14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
2 tsp. instant yeast
1 tsp. salt

The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was, thanks!)
baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in container
inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia odor.
I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one time I
had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred and
I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.

After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust is
a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.

This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
Thanks so much.
Dee



On the information you have given I would think it would be a yeast
problem. insufficient first rise or a partly dead yeast.

The other possibility if you are using your normal kitchen oven is a
contaminent (grease spatter on oven walls) which is being activated by
your water spray.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 05:23 PM
Iraxl Enb
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

do you use vinegar solution for cleaning stuff? maybe
you are getting the smell every time you back the first
time after a thorough cleaning...

irax.
http://fusionrasoi.blogspot.com
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 05:41 PM
Dee Randall
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Iraxl Enb" wrote in message
...
do you use vinegar solution for cleaning stuff? maybe you are getting the
smell every time you back the first time after a thorough cleaning...

irax.
http://fusionrasoi.blogspot.com


Thanks for replying.
No, this is definitely not it. I use a self-cleaning oven.
It happens sporadically and it is a chemical reaction of some sort when the
bread bakes. It happens with any kind of bread I bake. Dee


  #4 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 05:49 PM
Dee Randall
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
ups.com...


Dee Randall wrote:
I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it,
so
I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why
a
bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.

Here goes:

While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
Hydration Formula) consisting of

14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
2 tsp. instant yeast
1 tsp. salt

The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was,
thanks!)
baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in
container
inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia
odor.
I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one
time I
had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred
and
I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.

After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust
is
a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.

This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
Thanks so much.
Dee



On the information you have given I would think it would be a yeast
problem. insufficient first rise or a partly dead yeast.

The other possibility if you are using your normal kitchen oven is a
contaminent (grease spatter on oven walls) which is being activated by
your water spray.


Thanks for your reply.
In the last bread baking that prompted me to post a query, I have since used
the yeast from the same container and there was no problem with a vinegar
smell coming from the bread while baking.

I did write an email wondering if a dirty oven would prompt an odor to taint
my bread, but I would expect in that case for the odor to remain in the
bread. The smell I am describing comes only while baking the bread and
doesn't remain. It is quite strong while baking, an amonia-type smell.
Thanks for your consideration,
My best,
Dee


  #5 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 08:50 PM
[email protected]
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Dee Randall wrote:
I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it, so
I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why a
bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.

Here goes:

While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
Hydration Formula) consisting of

14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
2 tsp. instant yeast
1 tsp. salt

The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was, thanks!)
baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in container
inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia odor.
I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one time I
had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred and
I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.

After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust is
a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.

This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
Thanks so much.
Dee



Could you be overproofing the dough? If I let dough rise too long it
will sometimes turn sour. When the yeast feeds on the sugar in the
dough it forms carbon dioxide and alcohol. The carbon dioxide is what
makes the bread rise and the alcohol evaporates during the baking
process. If the dough rises too long then the alcohol breaks down even
further into vinegar.

  #6 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 09:32 PM
Dee Randall
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
oups.com...


Dee Randall wrote:
I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it,
so
I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why
a
bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.

Here goes:

While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
Hydration Formula) consisting of

14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
2 tsp. instant yeast
1 tsp. salt

The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was,
thanks!)
baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in
container
inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia
odor.
I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one
time I
had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred
and
I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.

After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust
is
a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.

This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
Thanks so much.
Dee



Could you be overproofing the dough? If I let dough rise too long it
will sometimes turn sour. When the yeast feeds on the sugar in the
dough it forms carbon dioxide and alcohol. The carbon dioxide is what
makes the bread rise and the alcohol evaporates during the baking
process. If the dough rises too long then the alcohol breaks down even
further into vinegar.


Thanks so much for this explanation. I will, indeed, pay strict attention
the next time it does release this odor, to recall any overproofing of the
dough. I'll bet this is the problem; sounds scientifically reasonable to
me - but I have limited brain capacity when it comes to logic and science.

You know, sometimes a recipe (on the first rise) will say "let it rise until
double, or two hours; if it rises to double before the 2 hours, degas it,
then let it rise to the point where it would have been double, if it hadn't
been degassed." So, do you think that the degassing (when it has risen to
the double point before the 2 hours) does eliminate the bread turning sour?

More questions, but
My appreciation,
Dee





  #7 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 09:37 PM
Marcella Peek
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Dee Randall wrote:
I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it, so
I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why a
bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.

Here goes:

While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
Hydration Formula) consisting of

14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
2 tsp. instant yeast
1 tsp. salt

The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was, thanks!)
baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in container
inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia odor.
I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one time I
had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred and
I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.

After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust is
a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.

This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
Thanks so much.
Dee


Acetic acid is a by product of bread fermentation. Yeasts throw off
alcohol, carbon dioxide and acids with acetic acid being the most
prevalent. Acetic acid levels are highest in breads made with a poolish
(did you do that) or with natural yeasts (and you did say you weren't
making sourdough). The longer the fermentation, the higher the levels
of acids. How long did your dough ferment?

I've noticed when I've had this problem that the smell dissipates by the
time the bread is cooled and ready to eat.

marcella
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 26-05-2005, 10:21 PM
Dee Randall
Usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Marcella Peek" wrote in message
...

Dee Randall wrote:
I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about
it, so
I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out
why a
bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.

Here goes:

While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
Hydration Formula) consisting of

14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
2 tsp. instant yeast
1 tsp. salt

The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was,
thanks!)
baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in
container
inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected
an
odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia
odor.
I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one
time I
had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred
and
I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.

After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the
crust is
a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.

This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
Thanks so much.
Dee


Acetic acid is a by product of bread fermentation. Yeasts throw off
alcohol, carbon dioxide and acids with acetic acid being the most
prevalent. Acetic acid levels are highest in breads made with a poolish
(did you do that) or with natural yeasts (and you did say you weren't
making sourdough). The longer the fermentation, the higher the levels
of acids. How long did your dough ferment?

I've noticed when I've had this problem that the smell dissipates by the
time the bread is cooled and ready to eat.

marcella


Looking back over my notes, I see that the last time I had the vinegar-odor
problem was when I made the bread using 1/2 cup less flour than it called
for (from "Bread" Pan Ordinaire - p. 72.)
2 tsp instant yeast, 1-1/2 cup water, 3-1/2 cup bread flour instead of 3-3/4
cup bread flour, 1-1/2 tsp. salt, but when I shaped it, I gently shaped and
incorporated 'quite a bit' of flour into it. I had no problem with the
recipe rising enough in the first rise; as a matter of fact, it rose faster
than I wanted, and I punched it down to let it rise again to double. It had
no trouble rising (45 minutes) while I was heating the stone. I did not
slash the bread.

I later made this same recipe beginning with 3-3/4 cup bread flour and it
did not have this vinegar smell. As I recall even though I did not slash
the first vinegary-smelling bread, I did slash this second bread. I usually
do not use 2 tsp. for this amount of bread flour, so my thoughts at the time
were that I would reduce the yeast to 1-1/2 tsp., as I usually use for this
amount of bread flour. I did not reduce the amount in the second bread.

In the first vinegar-smell baked bread, as you say, the smell did dissipate.
My vinegar-bread wasn't made with a poolish, but the hydration was abt. 82%,
so the whole thing was poolish material!

Any comments always appreciated,
Dee




 




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