I'm not sure why I'm double rising my bread before baking.
I probably followed somebody's instruction somewhere.

I've seen bread produced in a large scale bakery, with a
single rise : the bread is mixed, kneaded mechanically,
and then fed through a machine which puts the bread into
various sizes (eg. bap, sandwich etc). After the bread
comes off the production line, it is put on trays in a
rack system, which is then wheeled into a very humid closed
area for proofing. As far as I can tell, it's a single rise.

So, can some one offer some commentary on the reasons for
single or double rising ?

Single rise == swifter production time, therefore less cost?
Longer rise ... better quality ? If so, why ?

Perplexed.

Thanks
d

On 5 Feb 2005 21:45:59 GMT, lid wrote:

Single rise == swifter production time, therefore less cost?
Longer rise ... better quality ? If so, why ?

Hi d,

My interests focus on naturally leavened breads rather than
those risen with commercial yeast. Typically, mine rise
once.

But, your comment above confuses two (unrelated) issues:

There is no inherent reason that a two rise process must
take longer. The speed of the rise (whether one or two) can
be controlled with temperature.

Beyond that, as is true for virtually all fermented foods,
bread that is made slowly (that is, at cooler temperatures)
tastes better than bread that is made quickly.

I am always intrigued by the many posts from people who are
delighted to discover that they can make bread more quickly
by proofing it "in the oven with the light on." Few seem to
be posting with delight when they discover that they can let
their bread rise more slowly in the basement producing far
better tastes and textures...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

Single rise == swifter production time, therefore less cost?
Longer rise ... better quality ? If so, why ?

[..]
But, your comment above confuses two (unrelated) issues:

There is no inherent reason that a two rise process must
take longer. The speed of the rise (whether one or two) can
be controlled with temperature.

At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.

If I've misunderstood you, then please hammer me over the head
with a baking tin and explain what I'm missing :-)

I am always intrigued by the many posts from people who are
delighted to discover that they can make bread more quickly
by proofing it "in the oven with the light on." Few seem to
be posting with delight when they discover that they can let
their bread rise more slowly in the basement producing far
better tastes and textures...

I think you are absolutely right.

The last bread I baked was around 90% wholemeal, 5% torrefied
wheat, 5% malted wheat, and it was left for 1st rise overnight in
an unelectrified fridge outdoors (something I am using as
a makeshift cold room).

Best wholemeal bread I've made.

cheers
d

wrote in message
...
I'm not sure why I'm double rising my bread before baking.
I probably followed somebody's instruction somewhere.

I've seen bread produced in a large scale bakery, with a
single rise : snip
Perplexed.

Thanks
d

Large-scale, commercially-produced bread is especially formulated to work
with a single rise and go from the flour bin to the wrapper in under an
hour. You can produce bread at home with a single rise if you wish.
However, the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled) and
the bread will taste more strongly of yeast and yeast by-products. It's up
to you. If time is an issue, investigate the process of retarding the
formed loaves in the refrigerator. You can make your dough, rise in the
bowl, shape the loaves and put them in the refrigerator until the next day
to bake off. This method gives improved flavor over even the straight
2-rise and bake method. If you want really fast bread, you can make batter
or sometimes called casserole breads. They are yeast bread that can be
ready in a little over an hour. Slower production of the finished loaf
allows the baker to achieve a loaf that tastes more of the grain plus subtle
other baking flavors.
Janet

lid wrote:
At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.

This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough
between each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after
an hour. This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it
raise for another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour,
before final shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving
it all that time for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:11:59 -0500, UnConundrrum
wrote:
This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough
between each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after
an hour. This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it
raise for another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour,
before final shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving
it all that time for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette
Hi everyone, I'm new to this group and forgive me if you have
been asked this before, but having just got a breadmaker I am
experimenting with all kinds of loaves and doughs! Seeing the word
baguette has prompted me to ask how to get the crispy crust, as
although the ones I made tasted fine - they lacked that crispy dry,
crust - the crust on mine was quite shiny. Just wondered how you made
yours.
Thanks
Joan

"UnConundrrum" wrote in message
...
lid wrote:
At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.

This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough between
each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after an hour.
This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it raise for
another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour, before final
shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving it all that time
for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

At what point do you have to stop 'folding,' 'raising,' 'resting,'
'pre-shaping,' 'proofing,' before all of the yeast is gone for any kind of
development at all.
Thanks,
Dee

On 6 Feb 2005 00:57:47 GMT, lid wrote:

If I've misunderstood you, then please hammer me over the head
with a baking tin and explain what I'm missing :-)

Hi again,

I don't have a tin handy, but yes, you have misunderstood
me... (or, more likely, I did not communicate clearly.)

The issue is temperature, so, for example:

Two rises at 90ºF might take less time than one rise at
55ºF.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:20:48 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
wrote:

the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled)

Hi Janet,

You lost me here...

What is the difference between "coarser" and "open-celled"
when describing the crumb?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:20:48 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
wrote:

the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled)

Hi Janet,

You lost me here...

What is the difference between "coarser" and "open-celled"
when describing the crumb?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth
I knew when I typed that, I was going to have to explain myself. This is my
observation and going by feel. If I were to say to you that one cotton
shirt felt more coarse than another, I think you would understand that. To
me, when I touch the crumb and run the pads of my fingers over the slice to
feel the crumb--the crumb lacks the 'silky' feel of a bread dough that has
been allowed lots of time to develop and be baked right. It seems to me,
that these breads that are in a hurry to get done in the total fermentation
and oven spring just don't put the cell structure together the same way and
stretch as smoothly. The dough is too exuberant with all that extra yeast
needed to produce a fast rising bread. Gosh, that all sounds like I need
the funny farm. . . and anything else I write to explain myself sounds
worse.
Janet

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:07:55 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
wrote:


"Kenneth" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:20:48 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
wrote:

the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled)

Hi Janet,

You lost me here...

What is the difference between "coarser" and "open-celled"
when describing the crumb?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth
I knew when I typed that, I was going to have to explain myself. This is my
observation and going by feel. If I were to say to you that one cotton
shirt felt more coarse than another, I think you would understand that. To
me, when I touch the crumb and run the pads of my fingers over the slice to
feel the crumb--the crumb lacks the 'silky' feel of a bread dough that has
been allowed lots of time to develop and be baked right. It seems to me,
that these breads that are in a hurry to get done in the total fermentation
and oven spring just don't put the cell structure together the same way and
stretch as smoothly. The dough is too exuberant with all that extra yeast
needed to produce a fast rising bread. Gosh, that all sounds like I need
the funny farm. . . and anything else I write to explain myself sounds
worse.
Janet


Hi Janet,

It might be a bit too early for the farm...

Your comments made sense to me (hmmmm, perhaps we are both
ready for the farm) but, as you probably know, in baking
lingo, "coarse" and "open-celled" mean the same thing.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
snip
as you probably know, in baking
lingo, "coarse" and "open-celled" mean the same thing.

All the best,

--
Kenneth
What is a good word to use instead? Rough? Can you visualize the texture
difference I mean? Or doesn't anyone else examine their bread results as
closely as I do?
Janet

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 07:54:50 -0500, "Dee Randall"
deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote:


"UnConundrrum" wrote in message
...
lid wrote:
At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.

This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough between
each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after an hour.
This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it raise for
another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour, before final
shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving it all that time
for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

At what point do you have to stop 'folding,' 'raising,' 'resting,'
'pre-shaping,' 'proofing,' before all of the yeast is gone for any kind of
development at all.
Thanks,
Dee

Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.

But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?

--
Hitachi HB-A101 bread machine, 1 pound
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(01/10/05)

"Top Spin" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 07:54:50 -0500, "Dee Randall"
deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote:


"UnConundrrum" wrote in message
...
lid wrote:
At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.

This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough
between
each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after an hour.
This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it raise for
another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour, before
final
shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving it all that
time
for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

At what point do you have to stop 'folding,' 'raising,' 'resting,'
'pre-shaping,' 'proofing,' before all of the yeast is gone for any kind of
development at all.
Thanks,
Dee

Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.

But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?

You are right, my question is as you put it -- when does the
food/flour/dough get used up by those yeasties (because there is only so
much flour you can add to a formed dough ball.)

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:50:47 -0500
"Dee Randall" deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote:


Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.

But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?

You are right, my question is as you put it -- when does the
food/flour/dough get used up by those yeasties (because there is only so
much flour you can add to a formed dough ball.)


IT doesn't.

Eventually, the dough sours, and theoretically, the yeast may die.