Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Rast
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is puff pastry sensitive to tiny differences in method?

This baffles me. I've been experimenting with puff pastry. It's easy enough
to get perfect puff pastry with classic French technique : 2 cups flour, 1
cup butter, enough water to make a rather moist, smooth dough. Pat the
butter into a flat square, roll the dough into a mound with 4 "wings", set
butter on the mound, fold wings into the center, roll, fold in thirds, turn
90 degrees, roll again, fold in thirds, chill, repeat folding rolling and
chilling procedure 2 times. Presto! Foolproof results.

But when I made what seems like a trivial modification (folding the dough
in 4 parts, by folding in half one way and then in half the other, before
rolling), the results were completely different. Since the 4-fold method
will increase the layer count, I only figured I'd need to do the last
repeat for 1 folding instead of 2, ending up with 1024 theoretical layers
(instead of 1458. Big deal). But instead of flaky, the results are
consistently a firmer, more pie-crust like texture - no layers to speak of,
no puffing! Can somebody explain how the difference in folding method can
have such a drastic effect on the final result?
--
Alex Rast

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  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
H. W. Hans Kuntze
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is puff pastry sensitive to tiny differences in method?

Alex Rast wrote:

>This baffles me. I've been experimenting with puff pastry. It's easy eno=

ugh=20
>to get perfect puff pastry with classic French technique : 2 cups flour,=

1=20
>cup butter, enough water to make a rather moist, smooth dough. Pat the=20
>butter into a flat square, roll the dough into a mound with 4 "wings", s=

et=20
>butter on the mound, fold wings into the center, roll, fold in thirds, t=

urn=20
>90 degrees, roll again, fold in thirds, chill, repeat folding rolling an=

d=20
>chilling procedure 2 times. Presto! Foolproof results.
>
>But when I made what seems like a trivial modification (folding the doug=

h=20
>in 4 parts, by folding in half one way and then in half the other, befor=

e=20
>rolling), the results were completely different. Since the 4-fold method=

=20
>will increase the layer count, I only figured I'd need to do the last=20
>repeat for 1 folding instead of 2, ending up with 1024 theoretical layer=

s=20
>(instead of 1458. Big deal). But instead of flaky, the results are=20
>consistently a firmer, more pie-crust like texture - no layers to speak =

of,=20
>no puffing! Can somebody explain how the difference in folding method ca=

n=20
>have such a drastic effect on the final result?
> =20
>

Because, there are only so many distinctively separate layers you can=20
can create, before the layers meld into each other.
Especially if the gluten is too much developed and rolling in becomes a=20
bear, or the butter gets too warm.
Plus, the first roll-in layers, that are usually not counted, could=20
influence the result dramatically.

Start with 4 layers or more
End up with 1024 (or more) with 4 bookfolds, also called double turns.
That is the max IMHO that the dough can handle, even with a very strong=20
bread flour.

Start with only 3 layers
End up with 768 with 4 bookfolds, better for A/P flours and used for=20
pastry casings.

If you do 6 x triples (also called single fold), you end up with 2187=20
layers, way too many to create still distinctive layers, more like a=20
flaky pie-dough. But OK for Napoleons or Palmiers.

Most pasty chefs use 2 x tri-fold and 2 or 3 x book-fold, for best=20
results. Depending on useage. More for Napoleons and the lesser amount=20
for pastry casings.

BTW, the ratios are
100% flour
55-60% water
2 % salt
100% butter

5% of the flour is kneaded into the butter and 5% of the butter is=20
kneaded into the dough.
Makes for better handling.
The gluten in the dough is developed during the roll-in procedure.
Don't let the dough get too warm during roll-in, or you get pie-dough.
If the butter is too cold, it will destroy the layers, the dough will=20
rise unevenly,crooked during baking.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef<AT>cmcchef.com
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Rast
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is puff pastry sensitive to tiny differences in method?

at Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:57:55 GMT in
>, (H. W. Hans
Kuntze) wrote :

>Alex Rast wrote:
>
>>This baffles me. I've been experimenting with puff pastry. It's easy
>>enough to get perfect puff pastry with classic French technique : 2
>>cups flour, 1 cup butter, enough water to make a rather moist, smooth
>>dough. Pat the butter into a flat square, roll the dough into a mound
>>with 4 "wings", set butter on the mound, fold wings into the center,
>>roll, fold in thirds, turn 90 degrees, roll again, fold in thirds,
>>chill, repeat folding rolling and chilling procedure 2 times. Presto!
>>Foolproof results.
>>
>>But when I made what seems like a trivial modification (folding the
>>dough in 4 parts, by folding in half one way and then in half the
>>other, before rolling), the results were completely different. Since
>>the 4-fold method will increase the layer count, I only figured I'd
>>need to do the last repeat for 1 folding instead of 2, ending up with
>>1024 theoretical layers (instead of 1458. Big deal). But instead of
>>flaky, the results are consistently a firmer, more pie-crust like
>>texture - no layers to speak of, no puffing! Can somebody explain how
>>the difference in folding method can have such a drastic effect on the
>>final result?
>>
>>

>Because, there are only so many distinctively separate layers you can
>can create, before the layers meld into each other.


Agreed, and certainly I can see how if you went too far, you'd end up
trying to create too many layers. But the method that works (starting with
2 layers, use 6*tri-fold, if I understand your terminology), would yield
1458 layers. For me that produces outstanding results. The method that
doesn't work (start with 2 layers, use 5*bookfold), would be 1024. This
would appear to be fewer layers and thus less risk of layer combining, not
more.

>Especially if the gluten is too much developed and rolling in becomes a
>bear, or the butter gets too warm.
>Plus, the first roll-in layers, that are usually not counted, could
>influence the result dramatically.
>
>Start with 4 layers or more
>End up with 1024 (or more) with 4 bookfolds, also called double turns.
>That is the max IMHO that the dough can handle, even with a very strong
>bread flour.


It's worth noting that the my working method, ending at 1480 layers, uses
low-gluten pastry flour. I did try it once with super-high protein bread
flour, but the result was too tough and chewy (I'd have expected that
anyway)

Your thoughts sound correct in principle, but nonetheless don't seem to be
what's happening in my case.
--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
H. W. Hans Kuntze
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is puff pastry sensitive to tiny differences in method?

Alex Rast wrote:

>at Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:57:55 GMT in
>, (H. W. Han=

s
>Kuntze) wrote :=20
>[...]
>
>But the method that works (starting with=20
>2 layers, use 6*tri-fold, if I understand your terminology), would yield=

=20
>1458 layers. For me that produces outstanding results. The method that=20
>doesn't work (start with 2 layers, use 5*bookfold), would be 1024. This =


>would appear to be fewer layers and thus less risk of layer combining, n=

ot=20
>more.
>

5 bookfolds would give you 2048 layers. Way too much for a mille feuille.=

first =3D 8
second =3D 32
third =3D 128
fourth =3D 512
fifth =3D 2048

> [...]
>
>It's worth noting that the my working method, ending at 1480 layers, use=

s=20
>low-gluten pastry flour. I did try it once with super-high protein bread=

=20
>flour, but the result was too tough and chewy (I'd have expected that=20
>anyway)
>

Nope, although I routinely cut GM's All Trump or BigLoaf with 25%=20
SoftAsSilk, because the sheeter will work better with a slightly softer=20
flour than with straight bread flour..The quality of the baked goods is=20
slightly better (not enough to bother with) with a straight bread flour. =

More distinct layers.

The puff pastry only gets tough when it is not baked properly, e.g. at=20
450F till it rises and finished at 350F. That means, it will bake in a=20
fat puddle if it is baked at a steady temp. You can only do that with an =

industrial dough, like Orange Bakery's all butter dough..

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef<AT>cmcchef.com
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Rast
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is puff pastry sensitive to tiny differences in method?

at Mon, 01 Dec 2003 06:16:12 GMT in
>, (H. W. Hans
Kuntze) wrote :

>Alex Rast wrote:
>
>>at Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:57:55 GMT in
>,
(H. W.
>><Hans
>>Kuntze) wrote :
>>[...]
>>
>>But the method that works (starting with
>>2 layers, use 6*tri-fold, if I understand your terminology), would
>>yield 1458 layers. For me that produces outstanding results. The method
>>that doesn't work (start with 2 layers, use 5*bookfold), would be 1024.
>>This would appear to be fewer layers and thus less risk of layer
>>combining, not more.
>>

>5 bookfolds would give you 2048 layers. Way too much for a mille
>feuille. first = 8
>second = 32
>third = 128
>fourth = 512
>fifth = 2048


A difficulty in expressing the exact number. For the last folding, I only
folded in half, i.e. after 512, I fold in half for 1024 and do not fold
again for 2048. I've calculated and recalculated the theoretical layer
count, just to make sure I'm not missing anything. No, the non-functional
method for me is *definitely* 1024 layers, the functional one 1458.

>
>> [...]
>>
>>It's worth noting that the my working method, ending at 1480 layers,
>>uses low-gluten pastry flour. I did try it once with super-high protein
>>bread flour, but the result was too tough and chewy (I'd have expected
>>that anyway)
>>

>Nope, although I routinely cut GM's All Trump or BigLoaf with 25%
>SoftAsSilk, because the sheeter will work better with a slightly softer
>flour than with straight bread flour..The quality of the baked goods is
>slightly better (not enough to bother with) with a straight bread flour.
>More distinct layers.


That's actually why I decided to experiment with bread flour. I figured the
higher gluten would allow a thinner layer, and thus more distinct layers as
you suggest, and that I could probably live with the increase in chewiness,
which I figured wouldn't be too awfully bad if I wasn't handling the dough
or sheet roughly. But it was really quite tough indeed.

>The puff pastry only gets tough when it is not baked properly, e.g. at
>450F till it rises and finished at 350F. That means, it will bake in a
>fat puddle if it is baked at a steady temp...


So do you mean that the proper method is to start at 450 then end at 350,
or start at some fixed temperature and end at the same temperature?


--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
H. W. Hans Kuntze
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why is puff pastry sensitive to tiny differences in method?

Alex Rast wrote:

> [...]
>
><hwk wrote>
> =20
>
>>Nope, although I routinely cut GM's All Trump or BigLoaf with 25%=20
>>SoftAsSilk, because the sheeter will work better with a slightly softer=

=20
>>flour than with straight bread flour..The quality of the baked goods is=

=20
>>slightly better (not enough to bother with) with a straight bread flour=

=2E
>>More distinct layers.
>> =20
>>

>
>That's actually why I decided to experiment with bread flour. I figured =

the=20
>higher gluten would allow a thinner layer, and thus more distinct layers=

as=20
>you suggest, and that I could probably live with the increase in chewine=

ss,=20
>which I figured wouldn't be too awfully bad if I wasn't handling the dou=

gh=20
>or sheet roughly. But it was really quite tough indeed.
>
> =20
>
>>The puff pastry only gets tough when it is not baked properly, e.g. at =


>>450F till it rises and finished at 350F. That means, it will bake in a =


>>fat puddle if it is baked at a steady temp...=20
>> =20
>>

>
>So do you mean that the proper method is to start at 450 then end at 350=

,=20
>or start at some fixed temperature and end at the same temperature?
> =20
>

That depends on your oven setup, although you always use dual-temp for=20
puffpastry. But if you use commercial pre-fab dough, they are formulated =

so, that you get away baking at single 400F. Not always avoidable if all =

4000 rooms are filled and you have many functions booked.
As long as you use a quality all butter dough, the resulting product can =

be quite excellent.

Since I am working with a multitude of ovens, one is at 450 and the=20
other at 350 (standard swedish ceramic bakers 8 low-deck, individual=20
temp-reg). Convection you reduce by 25 degrees, although I don't like to =

bake feuilletage with convection.

Baking at home, you work with falling temp. Start at 450, insert goods=20
to be baked, 5 minutes later, throttle temp to 350, don't open oven.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef<AT>cmcchef.com
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

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